Talk:Joshua Waitzkin/Archive 1

Old talk

 * "Josh is also active in the fight against Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy."

does this mean he has the disease, and is fighting it - i.e. getting on with his life - or that he doesn't have the disease, but supports charities and raises money for them? Saccerzd 16:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

--


 * At the age of ten, Waitzkin beat E. Frumkin, the first grandmaster he ever defeated. 

According to the FIDE website there is an Edward Frumkin rated 2107, but he isn't a grandmaster - he doesn't have any FIDE title at all. Is this person a different Frumkin (now deceased, hence not on the FIDE site) or was this Frumkin not actually a GM (maybe a USCF National Master or something like that)? --Camembert


 * OK, I see we've got him listed as Edward in the article now, but as I say, he's not a grandmaster. I don't know the details of this, but something needs to be changed here. Where is this info that Frumkin was the first "grandmaster" he beat coming from? --Camembert


 * Waitzkin talks about this game in the program Chessmaster 9000, and refers to Frumkin as the first master he ever beat, not the first grandmaster, so I made the change. More specifically, he calls Frumkin a "Lifetime U.S. Master" - TalkHard


 * Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks. --Camembert

Famous game with Sarwer
I got this from Sarwer's website, thought I'd grab it while it is available: [Event "rated untimed match"] [Site "?"] [Date "1986.02.05"] [Round "?"] [White "Sarwer"] [Black "Waitzkin"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [WhiteElo "0"] [BlackElo "0"] [ECO "E76"] [TimeControl "0"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f4 O-O 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. e5 Ne8 8. Bd3 c5 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Bc2 a5 11. O-O b6 12. Be3 Bb7 13. Qd4 dxe5 14. Nxe5 Qxd4 15. Bxd4 Rd8 16. Bxc5 bxc5 17. Na4 Bxe5 18. fxe5 Rd2 19. Rf2 Rxf2 20. Kxf2 f6 21. e6 Nd6 22. Nxc5 Rc8 23. Nxb7 Nxb7 24. b3 Nc5 25. Re1 Rc6 26. Be4 Ra6 27. Bc2 Rxe6 28. Rxe6 Nxe6 29. Ke3 Kf8 30. Ke4 Ke8 31. g3 Kd7 32. Kd5 f5 33. a3 h6 34. b4 axb4 35. axb4 Nc7+ 36. Kc5 e5 37. Ba4+ Kc8 38. Bc6 e4 39. b5 e3 40. Bf3 Ne6+ 41. Kd5 Ng5 42. Be2 Kc7 43. Ke5 Ne4 44. Kd4 Kd6 45. Kxe3 Kc5 46. g4 Nd6 47. Kf4 g5+ 48. Ke5 fxg4 49. Kf6 g3 50. hxg3 Ne4+ 51. Kg6 Nxg3 52. Bd3 Nh1 53. Kxh6 g4 54. Kg5 g3 55. Be4 Nf2 56. Bd5 Nd1 57. Kf4 Nc3 58. Bc6 Ne2+ 59. Kf3 Nd4+ 60. Kxg3 Nxc6 61. bxc6 Kxc6 62. Kf3 Kc5 63. Ke3 Kxc4 *

Bubba73 (talk), 02:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Personal life? Family? relationships?
Anything about this stuff? I'm surprised he's not on the "eligible bachelor" lists, etc. 206.218.218.57 (talk) 16:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Removed by user.--T. Anthony (talk) 11:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Why are mocking statements like those of Anthony allowed? Yet my response to his statement removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.46.89 (talk) 03:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed it because of the language and tone. Your history of making disruptive edits (documented on your talk page) may have been a factor too. Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 03:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

so how is Anthony's language and tone relevent to the discussion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.46.89 (talk) 00:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That was more than 2 years ago and I didn't happen to notice it. His was not as bad as yours and you are an anon IP user with a history of disruptive edits.  If you think I've done something wrong then please do a Request for Comment.  Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 00:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Why did he stop playing chess?
The article says that he hasn't played in a FIDE tournament since 2000 but does not explain why. This seems like an important piece of information. Tad Lincoln (talk) 02:18, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Joshua Waitzkin
Joshua Waitzkin (born December 4, 1976) is an 8x National Chess Champion, 2x Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands World Champion, BJJ Black belt, and author of The Art of Learning. He is the only person to have won the National Primary, Elementary, Junior High School, High School, U.S. Cadet, and U.S. Junior Closed chess championships in his career. The movie Searching for Bobby Fischer is based on his early life. http://www.joshwaitzkin.com/josh/ Opala22 (talk) 02:05, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * These appurtenant details, for the most part, are already included in the article. The more specific claims which are not included require third party references beyond the subject himself.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   02:33, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Hello Opala22! Welcome to Wikipedia. I don't quite agree with this particular suggestion. As far as I can tell, the only thing it changes is substituting the first sentence "Joshua Waitzkin (born December 4, 1976) is an American chess player, martial arts competitor, and author" to "Joshua Waitzkin (born December 4, 1976) is an 8x National Chess Champion, 2x Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands World Champion, BJJ Black belt, and author of The Art of Learning." Stylistically, Wikipedia articles begin with the most general summary possible of a person's career. For example, on Ronda Rousey, the first sentence is "Ronda Jean Rousey...is an American mixed martial artist, judoka, and actress." Further details of Rousey's career aren't presented until further on in the introduction. Summary style is useful because starting at the first sentence, readers might be unfamiliar with Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands or BJJ, but would understand if the article simply described Waitzkin as a martial arts competitor. Altamel (talk) 02:40, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes 29-MAR-2018
Early Life and Education Josh Waitzkin first caught a glimpse of a chess set while 6 years old and walking with his mother in New York City's Washington Square Park. He was going to play on the monkey bars, and instead he fell in love with the art that would dominate much of his young life. Josh's first teachers were down and out hustlers--street virtuosos who took Josh under their wings and cleaned up their acts when their protégé came to play. The park guys taught Josh their aggressive, intuitive style of competition, which would remain his trademark for years to come. At age 7, Josh began his classical study of the game with his first formal teacher, Bruce Pandolfini.

From age 9 on Josh dominated the US scholastic chess scene. He won the National Primary Championship in 1986, the National Junior High Championship in 1988 while in the fifth grade, and the National Elementary Championship in 1989. At the age of eleven, he drew a game with World Champion Garry Kasparov in a simultaneous exhibition. At age 13, Josh earned the title of National Master. He won the National Junior High Championship for the second time in 1990, and the Senior High Championship in 1991, as well as the U.S. Cadet Championship (under-sixteen). Between the 3rd and 9th grades, Josh also led New York City's Dalton School to win 6 National team championships.

Josh Waitzkin is the only person to have won the National Primary, Elementary, Junior High School, High School, U.S. Cadet, and U.S. Junior Closed chess championships in his career. Opala22 (talk) 16:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC) Opala22 (talk) 02:38, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Reply 29-MAR-2018
Additional information is required.
 * 1) The source given for these claims, ABC News, is acceptable. To expedite your request, kindly provide the time index from the videotaped interviews where the information is discussed. (The URL's you've already provided.) I will then be able to place the reference in the article using a video citation.
 * 2) The third reference is taken from a cookbook. The claims found in the cookbook were sourced by that publication's author to another source. This makes the information "a source used within another source", in which case the original source used by the cookbook's author ought to be the one used here. Please advise.
 * 3) The cut and paste from an earlier request which you made here left the older request missing, in which case the replies left by myself and the editor appear now to be speaking to nobody in particular, and would doubtless appear strange to any other editors attempting to follow the conversation (I've since replaced the missing text). Please feel free to copy text as needed from older edits made by yourself and others (in a quotation) but please be sure to leave the original text in place. Thank you! Regards,       Spintendo       10:54, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
Additional information required Opala22 (talk) 15:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Reply 02-APR-2018
✅ Thank you for finding the time index for this. 0.82em 17:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
Movie Portrayal

In 1993 Paramount Pictures released the film Searching for Bobby Fischer, based on the highly acclaimed book of the same title written by Fred Waitzkin, documenting Josh's journey to winning his first National Championship. That same year, at 16, Josh became an International Master and the U.S. Junior (Under-21) Co-Champion. In 1994 he won the U.S. Junior Championship and placed fourth in the Under-18 World Championship.

In 1997, Josh became the spokesperson, and the architect of the Josh Waitzkin Academy, for Chessmaster: the largest computer chess program in the world. Opala22 (talk) 18:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The Simon and Schuster source, as publisher's of the subject's materials, is an employee of the subject. That makes a difference when it comes to where and how the information was published. Unlike information which would be printed in one of Simon and Schuster's books, which would have undergone an editorial process and fact checking, informational blurbs released on the publisher's website concerning the subject are not reliable sources. Likewise, while the information presented on the Abraham Group's website is grammatically improved over what exists now in the article, where the material came from and who wrote it is not known. 0.82em 20:58, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
In 1993 Paramount Pictures released the film Searching for Bobby Fischer, based on the highly acclaimed book of the same title written by Fred Waitzkin, documenting Josh's journey to winning his first National Championship. That same year, at 16, Josh became an International Master and the U.S. Junior (Under-21) Co-Champion. In 1994 he won the U.S. Junior Championship and placed fourth in the Under-18 World Championship. Opala22 (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Reply 04-APR-2018
The text in your edit request is insufficiently paraphrased from the source material, per: WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE.

Some proposed changes
Author The book is an autobiographical discussion of the learning process and performance psychology drawn from Josh's experiences in both chess and the martial arts. Opala22 (talk) 11:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Reply 04-APR-2018
The proposed claim: "In 1997, Josh became the spokesperson, and the architect of the Josh Waitzkin Academy, for Chessmaster: the largest computer chess program in the world." The subject is making a claim here about a program, that it is "the largest computer chess program in the world." Considering that the subject is personally and financially tied to this program as "spokesperson and architect of the Josh Waitzkin Academy for Chessmaster", this would make the claim a promotional statement if offered by the subject alone, requiring a second party to substantiate it. 0.82em 12:40, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Some proposed changes
Author

The Art of Learning is an autobiographical discussion of the learning process and performance psychology drawn from Josh's experiences in both chess and the martial arts.

In 1997, Josh became the spokesperson, and the architect of the Josh Waitzkin Academy, for Chessmaster, a computer chess program. Rocky Citro, "The Old Josh Waitzkin Chessmaster Tutorials", We Learn Chess, March 14, 2016/ref> Opala22 (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Reply
✅ The Art of Learning claim and podcast reference added to the article. The second claim regarding Mr. Waitzkin's being the spokesperson of his academy could not be added, as it's not clear what type of reference this is, a book, an article, etc. 0.82em 01:01, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

some proposed changes
Martial Arts Tai Chi Chuan

At twenty-one, Josh began to transition away from his early career in chess and into the study of the chinese martial art, Tai Chi Chuan with Grandmaster William CC Chen.

He was drawn into the art by his love for East Asian philosophy and meditation, and by the desire to begin a learning process anew, as a total beginner, away from the spotlight that constantly followed his chess career. In William CC Chen, Josh found the teacher that he had always searched for, "A great master with the humility and generosity that true 'Quality' is all about."

Initially Josh had no intention of competing in the martial arts, but there was no stopping the inevitable. For five years straight Josh was the Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands Middleweight National Champion in both the Restricted Step and Moving Step divisions. In December of 2002, Josh won the Bronze Medal in the Push Hands World Championship in Taiwan. In early November of 2003, Josh won the Gold Medal in the Push Hands division of the World Kuoshu Championships in San Paolo, Brazil. In July of 2004, Josh competed in multiple weight divisions at the National Championships in Orlando, Florida. He won an unprecedented total of 5 National Championship titles in the Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, and Heavyweight divisions. Josh’s competitive Tai Chi life came to a dramatic climax at the 7th Chung Hwa Cup International Tai Chi Chuan Championships in Taiwan December 4-5 of 2004, where Josh worked through a brutal field and won the Middleweight World Championship title in Fixed Step Push Hands and became the Middleweight World Co-Champion in Moving Step Push Hands. Opala22 (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

some proposed changes
Martial Arts Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

While living on the West Coast, Josh became interested in the grappling art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. He began his training in 2002 under 7th degree Red & Black Belt Master John Machado.

Josh co-owns Marcelo Garcia's flagship academy in New York City and is also the creator of the revolutionary Brazilian Jiu Jitsu online academy and virtual database, MGInAction. The site give members unrestricted access to daily lessons and 'in action' sparring footage featuring Marcelo and other world-class athletes. Opala22 (talk) 16:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

The references provided are interviews with the subject describing his interests in jujitsu. I would think that these activities, if they are notable enough to be placed in an article about a subject who is notable for playing chess, ought to be referenced by others beyond the subject alone. Otherwise, they might appear to be promotional of the subject's businesses, which are not chess related. I would like to ask other editors for their input. 0.80em 17:18, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Reply 22-APR-2018
A COI editor's edit request will oftentimes navigate through varying pathways on the route towards implementation. In this case, these pathways illustrate a particular catch-22 at their center which is preventing them from being implemented: Path A: Are the claims made by these references verifiable? Path B: Is the subject himself allowed to be a reference? Path C: Are these claims notable?
 * Verifiability says that any material likely to be challenged must be verifiably attributed to a reliable, published source whether the material is negative OR positive. In this case the reference is verifiable because it is the subject himself. To see if the subject himself is allowed to be a reference, proceed to Path B.
 * Yes. But WP:SELFPUB states that the subject of an article may only be a reference for themselves if the claims they are making are not unduly self-serving. These claims involve descriptions of the subject's pursuit of lucrative championship titles. Because the opportunity to make money in these pursuits offers itself as a possible motivator, in order to be a notable pursuit, these claims ought to have originated from outside sources which are independent of the subject. To see if these claims are notable, proceed to Path C.
 * For these claims to be deemed notable, they ought to have received significant outside coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. If the references are independent of the subject, then their claims must be verifiable. To see if the claims are verifiable, proceed to Path A.

You can see the difficulties in referencing at work here. These claims ought to be both verifiable and notable; the consequences of having the only reference being the subject's interviews complicates the entire process. The solution is to find references from reliable outside sources, which would make these claims notable and thus acceptable. 0.80em 12:09, 22 April 2018 (UTC)