Talk:Joss Whedon/Archive 1

Uncredited movie writing sources.
Hi. While adding the references to some movies Joss wrote, I realised his (uncredited :-) credits for Speed and X-Men can no longer be found on IMDB. Does anyone have any reliable sources that Joss did accually (co-)write those scripts? -- RoToRa 12:59, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * He mentions both in the interview  he did for The Onion. chocolateboy 15:57, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mortal Combat
Me again ;-) Someone added Mortal Kombat to the list of uncredited movies. It's not mentioned in the Onion interview. Does any one know of a source? -- RoToRa 14:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hill?
Does anyone have a source for Joss' middle name? The best I found was "Joss H. Whedon" at Wesleyan's site:. -- Jeandré, 2004-07-17t16:24z


 * It's an open secret :-)


 * chocolateboy 17:08, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * tv.com lists Joss's birth name as Joseph Hill Whedon. --Mindbender 21:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Notable influences
I was reading the Trogdor article and noticed a reference to joss that I thought should be in someway included in this article.

Also, I'm a big fan of Firefly and Donnie Darko and I've noticed two significant references to donnie darko in firefly. One is when in the mrs reynolds episode, mrs reynolds refers to the cellar door. The other is when (in episode out of gas as I recall) Malcolm says, "everyone dies alone," which is what grandma death told to Donnie. Should this stuff be added to the article? Vicarious 11:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)




 * Should this stuff be added to the article?


 * Yes, if a reputable source has made the connection. Otherwise it falls under the rubric of original research. If you do find a source, I'd suggest the Firefly and/or Serenity articles would be more obvious places to deposit the info.


 * As for the Trogdor factoid: I'd create a new Trivia section and whack it in there.


 * chocolateboy 15:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I never liked the Original Research policy. Or I should say, how it's applied. It was created for people that invent a new physics theory that's gibberish so we could keep them off wikipedia without telling them they're idiots. I think the rule is strecthed a big too far often times. I will conceed though that I can't say with definitive certainty that joss is a fan of donnie darko. meh Vicarious 11:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

alpha delta phi
Does anybody knows if Whedon is really an Alpha delta phi brother?

- he doesn't appear as an alumni at the alpha delta phi-wikipedia site - a google search turned up only 10 results with two beeing the wikipedia articles itself and the rest beeing random matches that showed no connection

so I think it's better to delete the category unless somebody can pinpoint something that would make sure he's a alpha delta phi

(Sirana 15:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC))

maybe someone should add that he was kind of involved with Phi Nu Theta( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclectic_Society_%28Fraternity%29#Eclectic_Society_since_1970 ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.65.73.223 (talk) 22:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Angel ratings
A friend just told me that Angel did have amazing ratings, it was simply not as critically acclaimed as Buffy or Firefly was. I don't know the story, can someone please drop some sources? -b 03:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This [page] contains Nielsen Ratings information for Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, and Firefly. --Mindbender 21:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Angel was cancelled for more complex reasons than ratings. It was all about ratings vs. profits. Although Angel's ratings were actually very good for WB, the show was very expensive compared to say Touched By an Angel which could also obtain good ratings. also Angel did not do as well in repeats as WB would have liked probably because most fans who liked the show enough to watch a repeat would buy the DVD sets instead. The article is misleading because at points in the history of Buffy and Angel, despite more attention always being focussed on Buffy, Angel was actually getting higher ratings than Buffy (though this was probably caused by the UPN always having generally lower ratings than WB). -- Paxomen 12:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"Fearful Leader" source
Someone just added the following text:
 * According to an interview with Marti Noxon, the writing team for Buffy gave Joss the affectionate nickname Our Fearful Leader

Could we get a source for this? Anytime we quote from an interview, we should be sure to cite it. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

remove "spike movie"
i removed the sentence "He also hopes to oversee the making of a Spike movie". I believe that a movie which isn't announced by anyone and probably will never happen isn't important enough for a bio.

Sirana 17:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah. AlistairMcMillan 17:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

removed harry potter
I removed this line

"Whedon also said on August 25 2005 that he'd consider directing Harry Potter"

since the link that was provided didn't lead anywhere, i didn't find anything on google about it and it sounds pretty unlikely. Sirana 13:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you don't know how to use Boolean searching terms. The Leaky Cauldron Synopsis of Joss Whedon's chat with Empire Online. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 08:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

specific deaths in the "death" section
131.123.57.26 removed the names of characters that are killed in whedon's show and i think he is right with that, so i put the spoiler template down. I think it isn't important enough on a bio page and it is a pretty heavy spoiler even with the template. so if nobody objects, i think the names should stay off the page...

Sirana 07:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Strongly agree with the removal of specific names per reasons above. -- Paxomen 14:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * An anon IP has just re-added the names; I'll remove them again and add a hidden-text message to discuss here before adding again. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Animated Series
Are there any plans to produce the animated series and release them on DVD? Or is it truly dead?--Radaar 03:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Until someone offers up a considerable amount of cash.. it's looking dead(ish). See Buffy the Animated Series -- Paxomen 17:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Lack of Basic Biographical Information
Nationality? Place of Birth? Family? I think we should be told--Mongreilf 08:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler?
Renfield recently restored the spoiler notice to the "themes and motifs" section, with the somewhat enigmatic edit summary "(explaining the spoiler would defeat the purpose, as would a more specific placing. (2nd section))". I can only assume that this means the homosexuality section is what contains the supposed spoiler — but what is it? Willow being gay? I don't see how that revelation could "spoil" someone's enjoyment of BTVS. I'm dubious of the need for the spoiler tag at all in this article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The way the article looks now, someone's trying to provide a spoiler for feminism. I don't see what's so spoilery about Joss's position as a feminist. —scarecroe 19:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If a character's sexual identity is "uncovered", i.e., presents a change from what has been previously assumed about him/her, then I would consider that a plot device. Now, which plot devices should be considered "spoilers" is a matter of opinion, but why sacrifice the enjoyment of those who'd only want Joss Whedon's background information just because you don't want to see a tag?  There's nothing wrong with being conservative in this case. Renfield 19:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If there's to be a spoiler tag, it should be bookended with the spoiler closer tag. Seeing as I don't know what the intended spoiler is, I can't add it myself. —scarecroe 20:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose that Willow's orientation is a plot device in Season 4 of Buffy, but it's one that was widely discussed at the time, and not presented as something that needed to be kept hidden — it's not a major plot twist like the ones in, say, The Sixth Sense or The Crying Game. I'll abide by whatever consensus is reached here, though.


 * However, if the tag is kept, I still don't understand why "a more specific placing" would defeat the purpose of the spoiler tag. It's not as if the knowledge that something in Whedon's oeuvre contains homosexual themes would reveal any specific plot point; at least, no more than the sentence "Many characters die in Whedon's shows" does. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Television and film have their differences. For a television series - especially one as long-running as BTVS - the focus is on the development of its characters.   Information in this regard should be protected.  By the time one gets to the "Homosexuality" paragraph, specific character names pop right out (let's argue about this).  I'm speaking from my own experience, as a reader who's considering watching the series for the first time.  Keep in mind that not everyone on this bio-page is a seasoned fan. Renfield 21:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Involvement with Marvel Comics
---Added a single line about his upcoming work on 'Runaways,' from Marvel. Don't have time atm to add a reference link, but it's up at Newsarama.com. 71.144.119.48 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)MD


 * Does anyone have a source for whedon's involvement with the ending of Marvel Civil War? I don't know a whole ton about whedon or what's up with him and marvel, but I've never read this before, and it seems not to mesh with the rest of what i know about CW. 66.222.62.214 02:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays33.html
 * And I'm having trouble with the link, but on Millarworld a while back Mark wrote, "Whedon was in town and, during the summit, quite brilliantly chose the best of the four endings we'd been arguing over for the better part of a day."--Nalvage 17:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Homosexuality in Firefly
Shouldn't there be a bit about his strong homosexuality in Firefly? Inara serves female clients, the episode with the 'whores' (used lightly), Mal is first thought to be a homosexual... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Obstructio (talk • contribs) 19:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

If you thought Mal was a Homosexual you didn't watch or pay attention. It was evident from the very beginning that he had feelings for Inara, and he was to moral to just go running around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.235.212 (talk) 13:08, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

'Buffy' article will be on Wikipedia front page on March 10
It has been mentioned on the appropiate talk pages already but I felt it is also worth alerting the talk page here. The featured article, Buffy the Vampire Slayer will be on the front page of Wikipedia on March 10. That will result in much higher traffic for this article, since 'Joss Whedon' is linked and mentioned lots in the Buffy article. As of now this article has been rated only 'Start-Class' on the talk page. It also has been given the tag "contains original research or unattributed claims". It'd be great if this article received some more attention and was brought up to a higher standard before March 10. For examples of good (featured) articles of TV/film execitives, potential templates that the 'Whedon' article could follow, see James T. Aubrey, Jr., Kroger Babb, Anthony Michael Hall, Peter Jennings, and Abbas Kiarostami. -- Paxomen 16:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fox Broadcasting vs. 20th Century Fox
"On the Serenity DVD it is stated that after Fox canceled Firefly and chose not to renew Angel after 5 seasons, Whedon's fans were 'ready to break down the doors to [Fox's] office'."

This is confusing. Angel was broadcast on The WB, not Fox. However, both Firefly and Angel were produced by 20th Century Fox, which is not the same thing as the Fox Network (although they are corporately related). I assume it was WB that canceled Angel and the Fox Network that canceled Firefly. Was it actually 20th Century Fox? Clconway 01:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Past tense?
I noticed that the part about the grassroots campaigns organized by the fans is written in the past tense. We are still keeping the franchise alive, and we're determined to get our Big Damn Trilogy. I apologize if I'm being offensive, I don't mean any. I just think that the Browncoat efforts shouldn't be regarded as dead, because we certainly don't.64.131.37.26 03:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

More on Spoilers
In light of recent edits and Spoiler (to wit: "Spoiler warnings must never be used for non-fictional subjects."), perhaps we should discuss edits to the "Common themes" section. The spoilers I can identify are as follows:


 * Willow's lesbianism, discussed above. This is a genuine character turn which might spoil, in some ways, Seasons 1-4 for new viewers. Note that Willow's romantic ups and downs with Xander and Oz are a major concern of the early seasons.


 * "As seen in Buffy, Firefly, and Angel, nearly all of the romantic relationships Whedon portrays end badly, usually in a traumatic fashion." This seems to be suitably vague, but it could be construed as a spoiler by more sensitive readers. I recommend removing this whole section, on the grounds of vacuity (these shows are serialized dramas—of course the relationships are rocky).


 * "Angel evolves as the protective father of the baby Connor in season three of Angel to his estranged father in season four to his friend in season five." I never watched Angel, so I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler, but Angel fathering a child sure sounds spoiler-ish.

Clconway 23:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"Need to see"
Does anybody have a source for the quote "I'd rather make a show 100 people need to see, than a show that 1000 people want to see."? I think it should be included somewhere, but I'm hesitant to put it in without a reference.--SarekOfVulcan 13:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Joss said this during the A&E "Biography" on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which originally aired in 2003. The special is a bonus feature on one of the Season Six discs, where you may confirm the source. The quote should definitely be included in the article - it sums up Joss's unique creative appraoch, as well as the show's relationship with its fans, perfectly. --AMCsoldier 04:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Name change
Did Joseph ever legally change his name? Shouldn't this article be titled "Joseph Whedon"? Alvis 06:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What his name is legally is immaterial for Wikipedia's article naming purposes, because we have a guideline to use common names. Otherwise, Cary Grant would be at Archibald Leach.  Mr. Whedon uses the name "Joss Whedon" professionally, and that's the name he's known by.  That's good enough for Wikipedia's purposes. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

LGBT
Why is this article under the LGBT category? Whedon isn't gay. He may write in characters that are gay into his shows, but in that case nearly every television show and actor who ever potrayed a gay character should be under that category, which they are notMishy dishy 01:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The article is currently under Category:LGBT rights activists. This is not a category that collects gay subjects, but rather people who are recognized activists for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and/or transgendered rights, which apparently includes Whedon, based on his non-fiction correspondence and interviews. It has nothing directly to do with his fiction, although it's likely that that material reflects his ideas in this area. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, wait. Are you referring to the "WikiProject LGBT studies" banner on this talk page? If so, I suppose WikiProject LGBT studies includes Whedon because articles on LGBT activists would be a logical target for people working on "LGBT studies". ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Joss's "appearances" on his shows
Just a thought - is it accurate to claim that Joss has "appeared" on Buffy or Firefly? Surely, he is on camera in Season 2 of Angel, but can anyone confirm that he's actually on camera in Firefly? His Buffy "appearance" was allegedly just his voice in a Season 1 episode. A mention of his "cameos" and "appearances", found in the very first paragraph of his article, may give readers a false impression - one of him clearly visible and identifiable on his shows, drawing attention to himself, when in fact his "roles" were virtually non-existent. If even the use of his voice counts as a cameo on the show, then (according to the commentary by Joss on the episode), the moans heard during Angel and Buffy's sex scene in the Season 2 episode "Innocence" constitute a Joss cameo, since he was too embarrassed to ask David Boreanaz and Sarah Michelle Gellar to record such sounds and recorded them himself. These minor inclusions in his work don't merit discussion in the very first paragraph of his article - at best, it's trivia. AMCsoldier 04:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Whedon's contributions to television are his writing and directing, not his tiny cameos that are only noticed after repeat viewings.  I don't think his role on Veronica Mars should be included there, either -- it's not terribly encyclopedic, just trivial.  The lead paragraph of that section should be entirely reworked.  I can take a crack at it if there are no objections to removing the references to cameos.  -- Merope 17:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed them about a week ago, and they were promptly re-inserted (which is why I started this discussion). But, I say go for it. -- AMCsoldier 00:46 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I was probably the one that reinserted them. Basically I had seen that they were removed for not having a source, and I reinserted them when I found that they are sourced on IMDB.  But, if ya'll want to stick them in a trivia section or just remove them entirely that'll be fine by me. --Wynler | Talk 14:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Anyone going to revise the front? If not, I'll take a stab at it. -- AMCsoldier 04:13 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Willow Or Xander Being Gay
The page claims that Joss knew he wanted either Willow or Xander to be gay, but couldn't decide which, and so dropped clues for each at various points. I've seen this claim on a few pages, and at various places around the net. Anyone have an actual source for it? --Nalvage 22:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure he says that in one of the commentaries on the Buffy DVDs. I might be convinced to rewatch eps with commentary in order to source it.  -- Merope 12:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

TV Work
In the TV Work section, in the first paragraph about Firefly, it says "Contractual restrictions with Fox prevented the series from being picked up and continued by another network." Is there a source for this? In the fan documentary Done the Impossible, Whedon states in an interview that he was given permission to shop the show around but was unable to find another network to pick it up. Also, the paragraph seems to talk more about the feature film Serenity than the TV show, despite being in the "Television Work" section. Agtctae (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)agtctae
 * I came in here to post about that same line you mentioned. I've removed it, because it is indeed false. Much as I will never forgive them for canceling Firefly, it is true that Fox allowed Joss to shop it around to other networks (which he did) to see if they would pick it up. -- Ozzel (talk) 06:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Personal Life
Thia article contains a load of stuff but so so so little on the man himself, his upbringing, his family life etc. Come on contributors! Add, Add Add! --Dumbo12 (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Seriously -- it doesn't even contain the fact he took the name "Joss" because it is supposed to be Chinese for "luck".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.77.157 (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Original Research vs. Primary Source material
There's some of both here, I have no doubt. However, that is no excuse for deleting content in such a blanket fashion. The fact remains that most of what the user A Man In Black deleted was actually legitimate use of primary source material to portray facts that require no analysis. Don't even try to argue, it's in the very policy you're citing to delete them. It falls under primary sources published by reliable sources (such as Fox and the WB) being used to make non-analytical, non-interpretive, descriptive claims that are easily verifiable as accurate through use of the source material. Now I don't claim that I've managed to get all of the stuff that's not covered under that clause, but some of it definitely is and it's definitely unconstructive to be deleting it in such a blanket fashion. Maratanos (talk) 09:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's anything in the homosexuality section that isn't sourced or apparent from the source material. I may have a slight concern about the heading "Common Themes and Motifs" it is placed under, however. Without the heading, we are merely stating that there are homosexuals in his work. With the heading, we may be implying that homosexuality is a theme in his work, not simply incidental characterization. It's a pretty subtle difference. I think it was fine there, but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it.


 * I don't particularly care for the section on Fatherhood. I think it stretches the limits of easily verifiable descriptive claims a little too far. Particularly with the comment "In lieu of a biological father, Whedon's characters often find an alternate father figure who takes the biological father's place." I'd be in favour of removing the entire section, and that last bit should definitely go. Loss of Life belongs, but if we can't find a source for what's in there, we're not trying very hard! The only bit of that that should go is that part about character deaths eliciting negative reactions from the actors themselves. I've never been able to find a source for that.


 * So in closing I think homosexuality and loss of life should be re-inserted, with a few slight modifications, but I'd like to see more people getting in on this discussion. His Ryanness (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with both of the above comments, content should be reinserted with some amendment. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 16:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, let's just say the original guy who removed them was right, though. It can't be called themes or motifs without secondary sources. Maratanos (talk) 17:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * We could change the heading to something more neutral, like "Common aspects of Whedon's works". That would allow the material to be re-inserted in an only slightly modified form. His Ryanness (talk) 22:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are making an evaluative claim, such as "recurring" or "common" or "thematic" or "motif" or many other similar terms, you need to have a source that makes that claim. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Fan campaigns and missing sections
The fan campaigns have nothing to do with Wheadon unless he started them himself and headed them. But I doubt it. Anything fan-related should be cut with merciless force unless it directly relates to Wheadon. Those belong on their respective pages. If you keep them, then the rating for this page won't go up.

Also it's missing personal aspects of Wheadon's life or those are out of place. Like say.. Early Life. There must be something hanging around. The second paragraph of the "career" section has nothing to do with his television work and should be incorporated into "early Life" section along with his father, mother and grandfather's name, etc.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 05:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The "mill" vandal
As some of you may have noticed, there is someone who is regularly vandalizing this page by sticking the word "infringement" in the article, either at section headers or in the picture to turn it into a red link. While the IP address constantly changes, it is obviously the same person, as the vandalism is always the same and they always leave the word "mill" in the edit summary. Does anyone have any ideas on how to stop it, because I am tired of using one of my 3 daily reverts cleaning up after this guy. kingdom2 (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've semi-protected the page for a day, which I hope will be enough to get the user's attention. If the user has a copyright concern, he or she is going about addressing it the wrong way.  I hope that the anon will come to this page and explain what he or she means by "infringement" in more detail.  If the concern is about the image Image:Joss Whedon premiere.jpg, the place to discuss it is Commons talk:Licensing.  Any other copyright concerns can be raised here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. However, I do not believe that the user has a copyright concern so much as he wants to be disruptive, as indicated by the IP hopping behavior. I checked the page history and he has vandalized it 15 times, each time with a different IP address (with the exception of one). I also checked the contributions of some of those IPs, and almost all of them contain similar edits on different pages, other forms of vandalism, or just the Joss Whedon edit. Only maybe two that I found I think had actual contributions in it, and even those are mixed with these edits. Anyway, not sure i it will help, thank you for the protection. kingdom2 (talk) 20:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't bothered to check where the IPs are coming from, but it's worth keeping in mind that some ISPs issue dynamic IPs to their subscribers, so people who aren't signed in don't keep the same IP with each edit. Anyway, if the anon comes back after the protection expires let me know and I'll extend it. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Just a note, kingdom2, reverting clear vandalism does not count toward 3RR. JuJube (talk) 01:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * That is nice to know. kingdom2 (talk) 01:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Somethingawful forums have an actual contest to vandalize Wikipedia so...yeah this is going to happen a lot.131.247.83.135 (talk) 18:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Whedon vowing never to work at Fox again
The section that I deleted is based on a blog post that claims Whedon said he would never work with Fox again at a convention. But Whedon himself claimed that he never said it here: http://doctorhorrible.net/joss-whedon-talks-about-how-its-all-going/912/ So I think it should stay off the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirana (talk • contribs) 10:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The point is valid either way but, just for the record, the canonical source for this interview with Whedon is: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2152. 130.91.163.216 (talk) 23:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Plus he is working with Fox right now. I constantly here people quoting that quote, but never actually see it. ZODtheReaper (talk) 08:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Music
I think there should be a section about the music he has written, since he's written quite a lot of it. For instance: Once More, With Feeling; Intro to Firefly; Dr. Horrible; "Last Time" on Music for Elevators. Does anyone concur? Tgwizard (talk) 23:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree but don't forget "My Lullaby" from Lion King II Megharrod (talk)  24 Sept 2009

Recurring cast members
Starting with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Whedon has used many of the same actors in his other projects. Many actors from Buffy have reprised their roles on Angel and vice versa.

* The character has been featured in both "Buffy" and "Angel".

This table of original research has been added to the article a couple times now. I was wondering if we might find some way to source it or use it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 07:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see how having as a table makes it innately original research. If this was in paragraph form it would be easier, but then it would be less understandable.  Why not cite IMDB at each of the column headers for the representative series?  It's not like it is unsourced or uses fandom information; it's quite easily shown that each of them were in each series. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 01:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * A lot of it isn't notable - oh look, characters who cross between related shows. However, there have to be a couple of news sources that talk about his fondness for re-using his Firefly cast, for his couple hat trick actors. However, to cite each appearance and then describe the notability would possibly be synthesis.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Once sources are found for the general idea of re-using actors, here's a suggested change that takes into account the Buffy/Angel and Firefly/Serenity combos where the actor plays the same character which doesn't seem to fit what the section is about: replacing the current "Eliza Dushku has appeared in three of the four television series Whedon has created (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Dollhouse). Other actors who have appeared in multiple television series or films by Whedon include Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy and Angel), Alyson Hannigan (Buffy and Angel), David Boreanaz (Buffy and Angel), Charisma Carpenter (Buffy and Angel), Tom Lenk (Buffy, Angel and The Cabin in the Woods), Alexis Denisof (Buffy, Angel and Dollhouse), Seth Green (Buffy and Angel), James Marsters (Buffy and Angel), Mercedes McNab (Buffy and Angel), Julie Benz (Buffy and Angel), Juliet Landau (Buffy and Angel), Amy Acker (Angel, Dollhouse and The Cabin in the Woods), Nathan Fillion (Firefly, Serenity, Buffy and Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog), Gina Torres (Firefly, Serenity and Angel), Adam Baldwin (Firefly, Serenity and Angel), Summer Glau (Angel, Firefly, Serenity and Dollhouse), Alan Tudyk (Firefly, Serenity and Dollhouse), Felicia Day (Buffy, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog and Dollhouse), Fran Kranz (Dollhouse and The Cabin in the Woods), Mark Sheppard (Firefly and Dollhouse), and many others." with "Amy Acker (Angel, Dollhouse, and The Cabin in the Woods), Adam Baldwin (Firefly/Serenity and Angel), Felicia Day (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, and Dollhouse), Alexis Denisof (Buffy/Angel and Dollhouse), Eliza Dushku (Buffy/Angel and Dollhouse), Nathan Fillion (Firefly/Serenity, Buffy, and Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog), Summer Glau (Angel, Firefly/Serenity, and Dollhouse), Fran Kranz (Dollhouse and The Cabin in the Woods), Tom Lenk (Buffy/Angel and The Cabin in the Woods), Mark Sheppard (Firefly and Dollhouse), Gina Torres (Firefly/Serenity and Angel), Alan Tudyk (Firefly/Serenity and Dollhouse), and Jonathan M. Woodward (Buffy/Angel, Firefly)" instead. -- Jeandré (talk), 2009-09-04t19:51z

I used a colspan to indicate that the same actor appeared as the same characters on multiple shows. The Broox (talk) 23:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No you used an asterisk not a colspan, a colspan is an attribute of the tag. It tells the browser how many columns one cell of a row should span. It is used with multi row tables divided into multiple columns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.235.212 (talk) 13:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Reformatting this
This evidently can't stay in the table format. It looks utterly ridiculous. It should be reformatted as prose. I'm tempted simply to remove it as trivia right now; the article is never going to significantly improve if all this baggage is kept. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Several Characters from Jossdom also appeared in shows he was a writer for, like Roseanne, and Parenthood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.235.212 (talk) 13:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Recurring Crew
There are sections for recurring actors, writers, and characters but Joss also frequently works with the same crew. Dollhouse production designer Stuart Blatt worked on Angel. Shawna Trpcic worked on costumes for Cabin in the Woods, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible, Angel and Firefly. I'm sure there's more. Megharrod (talk) 24 Sept 2009

I believe Seth Green should also be included, as he appeared briefly in Angel season 1, episode 3 entitled "In the Dark". He brought the ring of Amara to Angel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.18 (talk) 12:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Use of Acronyms ie DID/MPD? Dates & Other Stuff

 * At this point in the article, Joss_Whedon it says:
 * "'Whedon has repeatedly dramatised issues concerning mind control, DID/MPD, and human programming.'"✅ What on earth is DID/MPD? If you use an acronym, dear editors, please explain what it means, and link it to a related article if possible/necessary.


 * References #46/61/62? need fixing. Many others need work for consistency, these ones stick out most:
 * 1) #46 'bare'link, no text
 * 2) #61 Bare url ("Uniform Resource Locator" or more commonly 'web address')
 * 3) #62 Bare url


 * Several references repeat the same info in the reference, ie. #21, 29, 30, 56 & 64.


 * There are some links in the text that should really be made into proper references. The FIRST sentence for example has this link . I assume some editors haven't learned to make a 'proper' refernce yet (Me too! Still learning!). Please try looking at the text in edit mode to see how its done. And use the "wiki markup" setting in the "insert" box. is the basic syntax needed. These 'codes' are also available by the buttons above the "Subject/headline" box (ABOVE ↑). Another way is to copy another reference and change the link and other data. (Very carefully of course) And ALWAYS check the reference in /'article' view. Many seem to forget to do this!.


 * Date formats are inconsistent. yyyy-mm-dd using numerals only often leave me wondering ie "Retrieved 2009-01-02", 1st of February, or 2nd of January? But March 16, 2009 is unambiguous. Not sure what the 'standard' format is but it should be the same throughout the references. And hopefully MMMM-DD-YYYY eg March 16, 2009, format for clarity.

Note these two referencess are very similar but are actually done in very different ways.
 * Hasn't Dollhouse (which I haven't seen yet) been cancelled? Thought I heard that. But this article speaks of it in present tense and 2010 season references? From the Dollhouse article "Fox officially cancelled the series on November 11, 2009 during production of the 11th episode." OR . But this article makes NO mention of the cancellation!

I'll fix some of these 'problems' very soon if I can, but it's a LOT easier if editors take a little more time and care FIRST! --220.101.28.25 (talk) 09:48, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The Avengers
No mention of him directing the movie? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.101.249.218 (talk) 20:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

someone please clean up the writing on this article
I tried to clean it up somehwat.. the sections are long and drawn out listing every single possible fact about individual episodes, what he said in interviews, where he was standing when he had converations with people, books he read that he once said he would like to make a tv show like that, the way his eyes gleamed as he talked about something,  how he the tv messiah, how his astrological sign is a cancer. I mean, I loved firefly too but lets not go overboard, this article is difficult to read with all these useless factoids. we dont need to know the times the episodes were on 8 years ago, or the one time and episode was interrupted due to a presidents speech or something.., or the fact angel was on after buffy not before it the daily tv lineup.. I mean seriously.. who cares. what shows did he make? who was in them? and did they last long? were they any good? those are important things to mention. there is such a thing as too much detail -Tracer9999 (talk) 00:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The write environment / potential "unrealized projects" section
First off, I'm not sure if Joss appearing in the "The Write Environment" necessarily constitutes its inclusion here, particularly under a heading such as "feature films and video." The man has a devoted and eager fan base, of which I am a part, so I get it. But it is precisely these kinds of banal, anecdotal entries that make this page a mess. Secondly, a lot of what mucks this page up is the inclusion of his unrealized projects (of which there are quite a few). I'd like to create an "unrealized projects" section devoted to these kind of entries, so that the rest of the page can be devoted to his primary body of work. Thoughts? Brendan 11:12, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible (small) changes to opening paragraph
The opening isn't terrible, but there are a few flaws I'd like to touch up. I think it should go something like this:

"Joseph Hill "Joss" Whedon (born June 23, 1964) is an American writer, executive producer, and director. He is best known as the creator and showrunner of the television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, and Firefly. He is also notable for his work in film, comic books, and online media. Many of Whedon's projects, as well as Whedon himself, enjoy a cult status."

Citations and links will be added if this change meets approval.Brendan 11:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bclogston041 (talk • contribs)

wording for spec scripts money?
Article says "Whedon sold two spec scripts …. He sold Suspension for $750,000 against $1 million.[clarification needed][37]" http://www.moviestaff.com/film_scripts.htm has what seem to be a plausible explanation for amount-1 against amount-2 for a script. Not sure what wording to use (partially since i don't know how many drafts they wanted for that $750,000). How about: "He sold Suspension for $750,000 (for draft(s) and draft revisions) against $1 million (if script goes into production)." --EarthFurst (talk) 03:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

legal name
His legal name is joseph, shouldn't this article be moved to his legal name not a nickname? We can always redirect the nickname to the correct legal name? -Tracer9999 (talk) 19:00, 26 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As noted in the naming conventions for people, the name most often used to refer the person is used for the article title. Drovethrughosts (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2010 (UTC)