Talk:Journey (band)/Archive 2

More vandalism
I took the liberty of removing some really obvious vandalism from the formation section. There's also this sentence, which should certainly be edited in some way: "The original members of Journey came together in San Francisco in 1973 under the auspices of former Santana manager Herbie Herbert." If someone could make this sentence look the way it's supposed to, that would be grand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.100.103 (talk) 17:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Opening Line, Santana, and Frumious Bandersnatch
It has just occurred to me that because the founding members of Journey included as many former members of Frumious Bandersnatch as Santana (not counting the manager), the first sentence of the entry either has too much or too little information. Notwithstanding the fact that the typical lay reader has heard of Santana but not Frumious Bandersnatch, "Journey is an American rock band formed in 1973 in San Francisco by former members of Santana" should either include Frumious Bandersnatch also, or include neither band. Here are three proposals for a new first sentence; let's hear what the other editors like. Feel free to add your own.

Proposal One: "Journey is an American rock band formed in 1973 in San Francisco by former members of Santana and Frumious Bandersnatch."

Proposal Two: "Journey is an American rock band formed in 1973 in San Francisco." Probably the most "wikipedia style" option.

Proposal Three: "Journey is an American rock band formed in 1973 in San Francisco by former members of Santana and Frumious Bandersnatch and the former manager of Santana." Probably too wordy for an opening sentence.

Dave Golland (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Looks like we're going with proposal one. Fine with me. Dave Golland (talk) 03:20, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Associated Acts
The "associated acts" section of the infobox may be getting a bit out of hand. Jefferson Starship, where former Journey member Aynsley Dunbar played from 1978-1982, seems a bit of a stretch for inclusion. The same seems true of John Waite, who has former bands in common with current Journey members (The Babys and Bad English), but no current or former Journey member ever played with him in his solo career. I think the list should be limited to current and former members' solo acts, former bands of current Journey members, and current bands of former Journey members. From the current list, these would include The Babys, Bad English, Frumious Bandersnatch, The Gregg Rolie band, Hardline, Steve Perry, Santana, The Storm, Vital Information, and the Zoo. It would eliminate Jefferson Starship, John Waite, Tall Stories, The Tubes, and Tyketto. What do you think, fellow editors? Dave Golland (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

With this in mind I'm adding Abraxas Pool and Soul SirkUS. Dave Golland (talk) 21:11, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

And alphabetizing (Rolie, Perry, Waite). Dave Golland (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree with all above, except not really The Zoo, though Hagar Schon Aaronson Shrieve, maybe (one album). Best, --Discographer (talk) 21:34, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Discographer! I agree that Hagar Schon Aaronson Shrieve should go in (as "HSAS," IMO). Also Schon & Hammer, once someone creates such a page (currently there are album pages but no "Schon & Hammer" page). Let me defend inclusion of The Zoo: a current member of Journey is a former member of The Zoo (Arnel Pineda). I would argue for consistency, for the purpose of having an easy-to-understand rule. When Pineda leaves Journey to go solo, we would drop The Zoo. By the same token, if Augeri rejoins Tall Stories, we would include it--as it would then be the current band of a former Journey member. Dave Golland (talk) 21:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, since no one else has weighed in, I'll go ahead and remove Jefferson Starship, John Waite, Tall Stories and Tyketto. (Keeping The Tubes as former Journey member Prairie Prince is still a current member of The Tubes.) This is by no means intended to stop discussion of this topic, and if the consensus changes we can certainly reverse or amend this change. Dave Golland (talk) 17:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Dave, concerning The Tubes, Vital Information and The Zoo, I myself wouldn't include them beacause only one member of Journey happened to be in these (representing an individual issue, not a group one), and therefore the band is technically not asociated with Journey itself, just that member. Even though Steve Smith was in that jazz-fusion band, does not make it Journey-associated. The lay-out my friend should be that a band must include at least two members of Journey in order for asociation. I know you have Journey connections, however realistically, this is best defined as is. Please keep in mind any harmonious connections as true as can be to one another! Thanks. Best, --Discographer (talk) 20:15, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, a simple rule which keeps the list short and sweet. Also eliminates The Babys, HSAS, Steve Perry, and The Gregg Rolie Band. Reduces the list of associated acts to: Abraxas Pool, Bad English, Frumious Bandersnatch, Hardline, Schon & Hammer (I'm creating that page but I need more refs for it), Santana, Soul SirkUS, and The Storm. Dave Golland (talk) 03:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

So, correct me of I'm wrong, the consensus of the two of us (for now) is that the rule should be:

Journey's "Associated Acts" shall consist of musical acts whose current or past members include at least two current or past members of Journey, and current solo acts of current and former Journey members. My feeling is that for the purposes of this rule, only full Journey members should count, not touring or recording members.

Dave Golland (talk) 03:19, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree. Excellant! So, Dave, associated acts will be...
 * Santana
 * Frumious Bandersnatch
 * Schon & Hammer
 * Bad English
 * The Storm
 * Hardline
 * Abraxas Pool
 * Soul SirkUS
 * Sounds good! Best, --Discographer (talk) 08:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Shall we use chronological (your list) or alphabetical (my list) order? I don't care either way. Dave Golland (talk) 20:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Great! The associated acts we've agreed upon Dave, as unamimous consensus, we'll implement as permanent settings, if you don't mind, that is, lest something new comes along, needed to be added. Looking forward to Schon & Hammer also, as that second album is very much Journey-esque. Best, --Discographer (talk) 20:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

My first attempt to create the Schon & Hammer page was rejected for a dearth of sources. I've added ten sources and resubmitted; we'll see what happens. I've never created a Wikipedia page from scratch before, only edited existing pages. Dave Golland (talk) 20:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The guidelines found here Template:Infobox musical artist should help you with making your decisions. Providing all of the artists listed above have 2+ members in common, and/or have collaborated with Journey on more than one occasion, there will be no reason for that list to change. Chronology is not an issue as far as I'm aware. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 12:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've just given the list of associated acts agreed upon here a once-over, they're all fine to remain, all of them meet the guidelines. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 12:39, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Potentially controversial application of the new rule for "Associated acts"
"Steve Perry" as an "act" is basically defunct as the former Journey lead singer hasn't released a solo recording or performed his solo show live in nearly two decades (For the Love of Strange Medicine, 1994). He should obviously remain in the "Past members" section of the infobox, but I think it's somewhat disingenuous to keep him in the "Associate acts" section as well. It should fall under the "former band of former member" category and be removed. If SP were to release a recording (even a single song on someone else's album) or make a live solo appearance (even as a guest on a single date of someone else's tour) then obviously he would be restored to "Associated acts," as "Steve Perry" would be the current act/band of a former member. But until/unless he does, "Steve Perry" as an act is the former act of a former member, and should not be under "Associated acts" any more than Jefferson Starship or Tall Stories.

I realize that this might cause more controversy, which is why I am suggesting we discuss this under separate heading from the previous discussion of "Associated acts."

I mean no disrespect to Steve Perry himself or his fans; after all, I too am a Steve Perry fan and if he were both willing and able to rejoin Journey I'd be one of the first to buy tickets to any appearance or copies of any CD that would come out of such a reunion. But I think that if we are to set a firm rule limiting the definition of "Associated acts," we have to consider that "Steve Perry" the act is defunct (even though "Steve Perry" the person is still very much a living former band member).

Dave Golland (talk) 18:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no issue to be had here. Regardless of whether an associated act is active or not, if they meet the criteria they should be included. However, Steve DOES NOT meet the criteria required for an artist to be categorized as an "associated act". The guidelines (which can be found at Template:Infobox musical artist) clearly state that the field is not to include an "association of groups with members' solo careers". Henceforth, Steve Perry is not an associated act of Journey, and should not be listed as such. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 12:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Status of former members (part 2)
Following a previous discussion (see Talk:Journey (band)/Archive 1) I feel certain issues have not been addressed. Reviewing the response left to my query, I understand the logic that has been implemented so far. However I feel that there is still an issue to be addressed in that how the musicians are listed currently on what they've done with the band (i.e. recording and touring = member, recording or touring or neither = not member) as opposed to official status granted by the band.

To illustrate my point let's look at an example: Hugh McDonald has been the bass player for Bon Jovi since 1994. In this time he has recorded multiple albums with the band and has been present on all of their tours. Yet, despite having been in the band for a long time (a lot longer than his predecessor in fact), he is not an official member of the band, and as such is not listed in the infobox. He was never granted membership to the band that he's been with for the best part of 20 years. On the other hand, Paul Mario Day, the original Iron Maiden vocalist, was in his band for a very short period of time, recorded nothing with the band, fronted the group for very few shows, and yet was an official member of that band.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter whether a musician has only toured with OR recorded with a band (or neither) does not determine that they are NOT an actual band member, and a musician recording with AND touring with a band does not determine that they ARE an actual band member. It's all a question of officiality. If Prairie Prince was a founding member of the band then he must have been officially part of the group, and should be listed in the infobox and moved from "touring musicians" to "former members". If Randy Jackson was a hired hand for an album and tour then he is not an official member, and so needs to be moved also.

I openly confess to having less knowledge about the history of Journey than other Wikipedians on these pages possess, so I'm not stating that the status quo is wrong. For all I know it's not. I also appreciate the issues left by ambiguity over who officially joined the band and who didn't, and obviously that may prevent us from knowing enough to make corrections (if any should be needed). However, I feel this issue needs to be pointed out, so that it is at least observed, even if it can't be addressed.

On an additional and completely separate note: Why is it that we are including a list for "session musicians" when there have been plenty of session musicians on the band's recordings and only three are included? Is that list necessary?

Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 13:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This raises an excellent point, but I don't know how we can resolve it outside of the status quo. Sometimes bands issue press releases listing their members, and designating which members are "official" and which aren't; sometimes they don't. When Herbie Herbert hired Steve Perry to be the band's new lead singer in 1977, I don't remember if the word "official" was ever used. And even press releases have issues as historical sources. Their purpose is not "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;" their purpose is promotion, plain and simple. In 2007, Jeff Scott Soto was named the "official" lead singer at journeymusic.com, because the band wanted to promote themselves as being complete and being past the Augeri lip-syncing thing. And if Perry was never "named" the official lead singer in a press release, does that mean that Steve Perry was never in the band, while JSS was?


 * Another problem I have with "official" is that, in addition to the word's use for promotion, it is also used in an attempt to change history by people with an agenda in the present. Neal Schon apparently would like to pretend that Steve Augeri was never the band's official lead singer. And yet all the promotional materials from the Augeri period seem designed to get the fans to accept that he was, whether or not the word "official" was ever used.


 * Response to particular question: The three "session musicians" listed were the only three musicians who recorded with Journey but never performed with Journey.


 * Request: Until we've found a better standard for determining band membership, the touring and session musician lists should be restored to the template. I won't do it myself because I don't want an edit war. Burbridge, you should do it with the understanding that it is based on current consensus--and that the consensus can be changed as a result of this conversation.


 * One more point: I continue to hope that more of us can discuss these issues here, and am glad Burbridge joined the discussion.


 * Dave Golland (talk) 17:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying it's perfect and I'm perfectly aware that, especially in cases like this, there's always going to be a level of subjectivity. I understand and appreciate that. The main reason for this me posting this discussion is purely so that a) I have clarified areas I feel I wasn't clear enough on in the previous discussion about this topic, and b) if anyone else notices these issues then they have this piece ready to glance through so that they could understand why there are issues with regards to this subject in this particular case. Your comments put the issues into focus clear enough. It would be nice if we had more clarity from official channels but there you go. The one thing that I'm tempted to add is that maybe in some areas of the actual article there is more emphasis on what is considered to be the facts based on the "members" sections (e.g. in the first paragraph where it mentions Prairie Prince "served" as drummer, some readers may misinterpret what "served" actually means in this case), but on the whole I'd say that's the issue done and dusted. Thank you for your time. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Discography
I've previously noticed a couple of issues with the discography included on the main Journey page. These issues may have been discussed and decided upon before (in which case I've failed to recognise their mention in the archives) and if this is the case please ignore this discussion as there is nothing to be gained from discussing the issues any further. If I bring up something that hasn't been discussed, these points are more of a "food for thought" thing than an actual challenge on the status quo.

1. Not all of the albums listed are studio albums.

Generally speaking in these discographies only studio albums tend to be included, with all other albums left to their own discographies on the separate page, wouldn't it be best if the same logic was used here, considering the fact that there is another page for full discography?

Furthermore, why is it that only specific non-studio albums are included and not others from the same category (e.g. why one live album and not another?)?

2. The albums that aren't standard studio releases are not labled as such.

There is nothing to differentiate in the list between what is a studio release and what's not, meaning someone has to click on the album to find out exactly what it is. Therefore, wouldn't it be better if the live/soundtrack/compilation albums were labled as such, maybe in the same brackets as the year of release after a semi-colon?

To reiterate, please only take heed and respond to either of the issues in this discussion if they are unresolved, and I apologize if this post is unnecessary. Kind regards, Burbridge92 (talk) 16:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree, Burbridge. Lately I've been buying a lot of MP3s at Amazon to recreate some old mixtapes from the 80s and 90s as playlists on my phone, and often I have to consult the Wikipedia pages of various bands to figure out which album I should be looking for if I want the original studio version. Most are helpfully using the logic you outline here.


 * I don't remember any discussion of this but I do remember that your logic used to be followed, and when it was edited to the current way I must have decided to ignore it for one or more of any number of reasons, including temporary exhaustion. I have no idea why everyone else seems to have ignored it, but their excuses must be at least as good as mine.


 * Dave Golland (talk) 16:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

July 7 Edit
While a few of the edits made by the anonymous user these past two days might make some sense if proper sources were provided, the majority of them are erroneous. Including all of the session musicians from Dream, After Dream doesn't fit because the session musicians from the later Journey albums were actually filling roles held by permanent members. If the band performed with the London Symphony Orchestra, we wouldn't list every member of that orchestra as a Journey session musician. The band did not break up in 1987, true, but it went on hiatus and was inactive, thereby affecting the "years active" statement. While the band was on hiatus, Steve Perry was the lead singer (if he had been replaced the hiatus would have ended). The band was still on hiatus during 1993-1994, so band members who had left prior to the hiatus (Valory, Smith) did not return until after the hiatus. I'm assuming these changes refer to the musicians who appeared on the Time (Cubed) box set, but the band did not get back together for that release (all previously-unreleased songs had been previously recorded except for some instrumental numbers and one where Jonathan Cain sang lead vocals, but these were not really "Journey" per se). Lastly, it is unseemly for an anonymous user to make such drastic changes to a page. Create a Wikipedia account, find some proper sources, and discuss major changes on this talk page before implementing them. Dave Golland (talk) 21:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, because almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, Jeremey Hunsicker was never a member of Journey. We've established on this talk page that full members of journey both recorded released music and performed live with the band. Session musicians only recorded released music with the band, and touring musicians performed live with the band only. Hunsicker never performed live with Journey, nor did he record any songs with the band that have been released. He is one of many people who have lent their songwriting talents to the band (and I hope he was paid well for that), but even if they signed a contract and later reneged, he was not actually a member of the band. Note that this could change if the band ever releases songs which they recorded with him. Dave Golland (talk) 21:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Note to Anonymous User Repeatedly Editing Information Regarding Band Members
Welcome to Wikipedia. My reversions of your edits are not personal and have nothing to do with concealment of fact. Wikipedia has policies, procedures, and customs. If you attempt to follow these, you are welcome to make changes to this page which established users will not revert (and will even defend against vandals and anonymous users). Some pointers:

·Create an actual user name, so that your edits are not anonymous (to the extent to which anything is "not anonymous" on the internet). I should point out that even if you are an insider with a verified identity (e.g. a current or former member of the band or band staff), your opinions and edits will not automatically be treated as gospel. Even the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, cannot make unsourced changes to his own Wikipedia page.

·Read the actual coding in the text of the page (i.e. click the "edit" tab at the top of the page, don't just edit from the main page). In this case, there is invisible language, found in the coding, which will give you information about the edits you are trying to make.

·Skim the prior discussions in this Talk page and read carefully any discussions pertaining to the edits you are trying to make. In this case there is established consensus as to the list of former band members and their definitions. You can change that consensus, but only through open discussion on this Talk page.

·Engage in discussion on this Talk page and attempt to achieve consensus on your changes before you make them.

·Ensure adequate sourcing for all statements of fact or changes to statements of fact. Saying that the evidence is found in many places does not cover this requirement. You have to cite the specific sources in the text, not in the edit summary, and provide hyperlinks where appropriate.

·Assume good faith on the part of your fellow editors. Accusing us of concealment does not assume good faith.

If you continue to ignore these pointers, I and other regular editors of this page will continue to revert your edits. But if you begin to learn and adhere to them, we are more likely to begin to give your edits the benefit of the doubt.

Again, welcome to Wikipedia. It is always good to have more interested editors.

Dave Golland (talk) 18:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Shall We Ask an Administrator to Block User?
An anonymous user with IP addresses beginning with 159.39... at the Journey Template page has been repeatedly attempting to change the Journey membership status of Randy Jackson, and ignoring edit summaries which direct him/her to the consensus on membership found on this page. Shall we request that an administrator block those IP addresses? Dave Golland (talk) 13:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, the user appears to have given up (at least for the time being). Dave Golland (talk) 14:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Links
Journey and Steve Perry links are not up to date. Please fix. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.20.137.40 (talk) 08:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Reunion?
Is this good enough to at least say a reunion is possible?— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 21:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I responded to your note on my Talk page before I saw this. Here's what I said:


 * As long as we don't create a section with the word "rumor" in it," I think this source is as good as any. You could just add a brief paragraph to the history section, perhaps something like:


 * "As of 2014, Steve Perry and Neal Schon are in discussions for a second band reunion. According to Perry '[w]e’re trying. It’s tough. I’m doing my best in that area, and I can only do so much. The older I get, the more I do realize how important what we had all together and how it worked, [lifting] each other to this place that you can’t get to alone. I think that’s probably the biggest chemistry thing I recognize now.' As for Schon, he recently wrote on Facebook that 'I hope we can reach out to each other and connect once again. We had amazing chemistry together. I love him with all the love and admiration you could ever have.'"


 * This is a very interesting development. Arnel Pineda's contract should have expired by now (or will soon). If Perry got back into the mix, and especially if Steve Smith joins the reunion and displaces Deen Castronovo, I wonder if the dominant paradigm for the Journey history of the past eighteen years will become the story of breakups and reunions, rather than that of continuity, as it is now.


 * This is one of the reasons I love history so much! The "facts" don't change but the interpretations are constantly in flux.


 * Thanks for sharing this story with me.


 * Dave Golland (talk) 13:02, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 17:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I've researched the quote. Unfortunately, the journalist from the article you posted is referencing a facebook post made in summer 2013. I won't debate the reliability of the author, but the information is quite dated, with several developments that were not applied.  Schon's message to Perry of "let's talk soon" inadvertently fanned the proverbial flame of reunion rumors.  At the very least, Schon is discussing his personal relationship with Perry.  But we cannot prove that either side are interested in a reunion.


 * Ultimate Classic Rock ran with this same story on February 4th, 2014. Two days later they were informed by Journey's management that the story was not true and posted a suffix retraction.


 * Matter of fact, Fan Asylum, which is Steve Perry's official fan club agency--and the closest thing he has to an official site, posted a statement from Perry regarding the rumors on February 24, 2014:


 * "I'd like to make clear that the rumor that I have returned to the band Journey is totally untrue and only a rumor.


 * Sincerely,
 * Steve Perry"


 * Until Perry and Schon officially state that they are reuniting, we should not be posting any suggestion of a reunion. It only fans the flames of these rumors. It will irritate both Perry and Journey, whom have elected to part ways over 15 years ago.  And, as much as many fans would love to see it happen, it's just not fact until it is fact.  It's not fair to post what we cannot prove.  Though a lot of the press are reporting the possibility of a reunion, it's not the same as confirming it.  I've seen reports from Artisan News on YouTube and other sources reporting "scoops" with the hope of a reunion.  I've even seen a recent video where TMZ asked Deen Castronovo if Perry was returning to Journey, and because he didn't give a sufficient answer, they are running with the rumors again.


 * Something we need to remember is that the press sometimes run with a story for the sake of entertainment. Journalists need readers and viewers, and since Journey is a popular band, it is very easy for them to run a story knowing how many fans will pay attention. Unfortunately, they don't have much to go on.  Perry and Schon are not giving us much to work, and if anything, have made it clear that the current version of the band IS the band.


 * For now, and likely for good, Arnel Pineda is the lead singer for Journey. If Steve Perry ever pursues a new record, we will know then--and only then--if it's a solo album or if he is returning to Journey.


 * As for Steve Smith, he has stated often on record that he was no longer interested in Journey. When Perry left in 1998, he had already put his jazz career on the shelf for over a year waiting for Perry to decide if he would continue.  When Journey decided to hire a new singer, he opted to resume his jazz career and has moved on.


 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Risephoenixrise (talk • contribs) 08:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * That sounds right. Thanks for researching it! My only quibble is with the statement "...likely for good, Arnel Pineda is the lead singer for Journey." I agree that it is likely that Perry will never return to Journey, but I think it is highly unlikely that Pineda is the lead singer for good. There's too long of a track record with switching lead singers, and he hasn't even exceeded Augeri's tenure yet. Dave Golland (talk) 14:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's all conjecture at this point. But the reasons some singers never made it (Robert Fleischmann, Jeff Scott Soto) is because they didn't fit in with the band's direction.  And some of the other singers that were tried but never hired, such as Michael Bolton, Kevin Chalfant, and Jeremey Hunsicker, is because the band didn't feel they were the right guy for the job.


 * The dismissal of Steve Augeri was the lone exception. He just wasn't healthy enough to do the job.  The songs were damaging his voice, and they needed a singer that could handle the range.  They were fond of him, and regretted the necessity of dismissing him, but it was best for business.


 * They are quite happy with the job Arnel is doing. So it wouldn't make sense to dismiss someone who follows orders and does a good job, and reunite with someone that has an excess of 20-year baggage to resolve.


 * Unless something dramatic happens, we must assume that Arnel is indefinitely the lead singer for Journey.


 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Risephoenixrise (talk • contribs) 03:21, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Well said, especially "indefinitely."Dave Golland (talk) 03:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Bassist...
From the Members Chart, apperently they didn't have a bassist from around 1988 to around 1996? 2601:8:9180:604:219:D1FF:FEA8:25F0 (talk) 03:04, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Correct. This is explained in the history section. Dave Golland (talk) 19:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Randy Jackson Again
I agree that Jackson was never an official member. I have never seen any evidence that he was. Why is it the official stance of WP that we was when it is the stance of the band (and Jackson himself) that he was not? How does that work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.64.123.208 (talk) 02:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Even in the WP entry for the album on which Jackson played bass on some of the songs as a hired session player (Raised on Radio), he is listed as a session player. So this is quite a contradiction. And last I checked, he is not listed as a member in the liner of notes of the official release hard copies of said album. Further, for anyone to simply declare that he was an official member solely because he happened to be a hired player for studio and live performances is utterly absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.64.123.208 (talk) 02:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your interest in editing the Journey WP page! It's always a pleasure to welcome another interested editor. The issue regarding Randy Jackson and all former and current members of Journey, "official" or "unofficial," is the result of current Talk Page consensus. Please see Status of Former Members and Status of Former Members (Part 2). Also, as an anonymous user working on consensus issues, I advise you to see Wikipedia:How to edit constructively as well. This will give you some important advice on how you can constructively insert your own opinion into an existing consensus. In the meantime, I have again reverted your edit regarding Randy Jackson. It is my hope that we can constructively continue this conversation. Dave Golland (talk) 04:27, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Status of Former Members (Part 3)
See also: Status of Former Members Status of Former Members (Part 2).

Having re-read Part 2 of this discussion, I would like to better address the issue raised by Burbridge92 vis-a-vis a longtime unofficial touring and recording member of Bon Jovi. It seems to me that in that case, both the pre-existing band members and the longtime "unofficial" band member agree that the status of this person is "unofficial." That does not appear to be the case with Journey. Randy Jackson has said "I was in Journey," so even if Neal, Steve Perry, or other pre-existing members might say that his status was "unofficial" (which to my knowledge they have not), unless Jackson were to agree to that, the sentiment would not be mutual as it apparently is in Bon Jovi.

I have heard tell a rumor that current Journey lead singer Arnel Pineda was hired with a contract for a specific number of years, something very different from my understanding of how all other Journey members have joined the band. If that were indeed the case, I think we might need to revise the definition to call him unofficial as with the longtime unofficial member of Bon Jovi; after all, a contract is binding on both parties, and implies agreement as to status. But to my knowledge this is just a rumor, not substantiated with any verifiable evidence. Unless and until it can be so, I think it must be ignored in our definition.

Dave Golland (talk) 04:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Anyone whom has worked in the music industry, as I have and do, will know that a person hired to play on an album does not automatically become an official member of the band if said person is also hired to play with said band for live dates. In is commonly held that there are, indeed, several different levels of "officially" held member status (most of those levels indeed ONLY being known to band, management and label). But, further, the minimum level of official status to be held is commonly held within the industry to occur when said person is listed in the liner notes of an officially released (i.e. non-bootleg) album with person in question having his or her name in the same section and in the same font as the names/credits of the rest of the band members. (Another sign of official member status occurs when said person in question appears in a posed band photo within such a release's artwork, or indeed any type of picture in said publication if there is only one band photo and it is not posed, per se. An example being a performance or otherwise candidly taken photo.) Having said this, I do not believe that Jackson was an official member of the band known as Journey. And I have never met or talked to anyone whom believed the contrary. It is a shame that we can't have the Journey WP entry moderated by someone with such a knowledge of these facts. Journey is certainly worthy of that. [Signature added by sinebot appears to have blanked page.]

With the exception of the point about photography, your arguments have already been considered in the previous discussions on this topic. Mainly the issue is, as you point out, the difficulty in determining what is "official." Ultimately the logic of asking prior band members to determine this becomes circular. After all, which prior members were indeed "official" is also hard to say.

I do find the photographic argument, however, a very interesting addition and a good point overall. The first three album covers featured the members of the band who had participated in the recordings. Since then, the album covers have been, shall we say, more abstract, and usually the band members have been pictured on the back cover or other promotional material (like liner notes). We could amend the definition of "full membership" to reflect these concerns as follows:

"Musicians who toured and recorded were full members, those who did one or the other were not; 'recorded' shall be defined as having contributed musically to the recording as well as having appeared in photographs on or within the album cover."

However, I again have concerns. Can we show with certainty that Neal Schon's picture appeared on or in every album? Steve Perry's (for those for which he was a member)? And I have certainly seen plenty of pictures of Randy Jackson on the road with Journey, none of which appear to create any sort of hierarchy among the musicians.

I hope more non-anonymous users can contribute to this discussion, but in the meantime, consensus does not appear to have changed.

Finally, as to your final point, there is no moderator of this page. That is not the nature of Wikipedia. I am an editor, but not an anonymous one. I personally don't care one way or the other whether or not Randy Jackson was a full or official member of Journey (do you?). I do hope, however, that we can continue to find some sort of consistency here.

Dave Golland (talk) 16:57, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Splitting the "Lead Singer Replaced" section in half
Hi, Folks--

Well, it's been seventeen years since the band fired Steve Perry, and eight years since they hired Arnel Pineda. Seems to me it's time to make two sections out of this era. My initial thoughts are:


 * "A new Steve, 1998-2007" (which would include the Jeff Scott Soto interlude)
 * "Lead singer replaced again, 2007-present"

What are yours?

Dave Golland (talk) 14:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * OK, it's been a month, so I'll give it a try. Dave Golland (talk) 16:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Years active
In line with other bands that had hiatuses etc. shouldn't the years active read 1973-1983, 1986-1987, 1995- present? Bomberswarm2 (talk) 10:13, 31 October 2015 (UTC)


 * No objection in principle, but we should be careful how we define hiatus. The term is currently being used retrospectively because it looks like a hiatus when you look back on it, but the band never officially went on hiatus. If we choose to split the active dates, I'd recommend at a minimum not counting the pre-1986 period as a hiatus just because certain band members found time for solo projects. Dave Golland (talk) 16:50, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Omar Hakim
As the most recent drummer, even though he hasn't (yet) recorded with the band, perhaps Omar Hakim should be listed--at least for the time being--as a current band member? What do fellow editors think? Dave Golland (talk) 15:34, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Obviously this point is now moot. We should start thinking about starting a new section in the history, beginning in 2015. But let's wait and watch as things develop. After all, if Steve Smith's back, who knows what else is about to happen? One can dare to dream (after dream). Dave Golland (talk) 14:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

New image for new line-up (December 2015)
I uploaded an image of Journey that was recently released via a news article. This is the only current photo that I've been able to find of the band, and was told to discuss why the image is 'not replacable'. Seeing as the drummer in the current band image on the page was arrested for shady business, I think it's important to upload an image of the band which shows the current line-up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Burningblue52 (talk • contribs)
 * The answer is to get a free image of the current band line-up. Using a press release image does not comply with Non-free content. -- Whpq (talk) 19:54, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I hope someone finds an acceptable new photo soon. I agree, the current photo is misleading. Also, BurningBlue52, thanks for editing! Always good to add another interested editor. I like the phrase "co-lead vocals" for Rolie (refering to the Perry period). Dave Golland (talk) 16:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Travis Thibodeaux
An editor has presented what appears to be a credible source that Louisiana musician Travis Thibodeaux performed backup keyboards and background vocals with Journey on the 2016 tour. Previously we've only listed touring musicians who covered one of the main instruments, leaving out secondary musicians who helped out. Part of the argument for this had to do with the copious session musicians in the orchestra on Dream, after Dream; listing them all individually would be exhaustive, and they weren't really session musicians for Journey in the traditional sense. My inclination is to drop Thibodeaux (for now, pending his actual replacement of Jonathan Cain) and limit all session and touring musicians to those who served as primary artists on tour or in the studio. What are your thoughts? Dave Golland (talk) 15:55, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Over-complicated Timeline
I think the timeline has become over-complicated, with all the multi-colored lines representing secondary instruments. It already includes the several musicians who either only toured with Journey or only recorded with them. I think we should go back to six simple colors: lead vocals, guitar, keyboards, bass, drums, management, with Gregg Rolie represented twice. Thoughts? Dave Golland (talk) 13:43, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * OK, I'm tentatively doing it. Dave Golland (talk) 14:54, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I support your concerns.  -  Mlpearc  ( open channel ) 15:24, 8 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Pretty much every other timeline has those multicolored lines. Some even have 3, or 4 or sometimes even more. I think having two of the same person just makes it more complicated. If you didn't already know who Greg Rolie was, it would seem as if the person on keys and on vocals are the same person. There is a way to make all the lines thicker, to make it easier to see, but splitting them up would make it very confusing. IanHMiller (talk) 21:44, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. Dave Golland (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Just as a quick follow-up, these are the unofficial "rules" for timelines. The goal is to keep Wikipedia uniform, so if you want, I would highly recommend you give this section a quick read, it's actually a very interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Musicians/Archive_8#Create_Member_Section.2FTimeline_Standards IanHMiller (talk) 00:16, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Randy Jackson Again Part 2
WHY is Randy Jackson still listed as a former official member??? I have yet to ever see any evidence that he was so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.139.154.132 (talk) 20:38, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This continues to be a very good question. We've been discussing it for years. See the following Journey talk page entries:
 * Randy Jackson
 * Former Members
 * Status of Former Members
 * Status of Former Members part 2
 * Note to Anonymous User Repeatedly Editing Information Regarding Band Members
 * Randy Jackson Again
 * Status of Former Members part 3
 * --Dave Golland (talk) 14:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

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Dream, After Dream
Is there some reason that this article doesn't mention the Dream, After Dream soundtrack album? überRegenbogen (talk) 00:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It's listed on the discography page. Only studio albums are listed on the main article. -  FlightTime Phone  ( open channel ) 00:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Official members
As of June 7 2020, the band's official web page and also their official social media very clearly indicate the official members now are only Schon, Cain and Pineda. All new members are unofficial and are only session and or touring members so they should not be listed in the official member section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:8D30:18B0:DD43:28:94C:1D57 (talk) 11:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * It might be best to list Valory, Smith, and Jackson as "current members," and Walden as a "touring member," with asterisks explaining that their status is pending resolution of the lawsuit. (Jackson's case is different than Walden's because Talk Page consensus has long established that musicians who performed live and on albums are considered to have been "full" members of Journey, and RJ is a "full" former member.) Dave Golland (talk) 21:53, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

More on "Official" Members
Hi, folks, someone (or someones) are anonymously attempting to turn a 1987 appearance of Narada Michael Walden with Schon and Cain into evidence of Walden's former membership in Journey, and to declare that Valory and Smith are currently "on hiatus." It wouldn't surprise me if this is someone who has an interest (or is connected to one of the parties) in the current lawsuit. Making it seem as if Walden (like Randy Jackson) is a former member of Journey and that Valory and Smith are not currently members would tend to bolster arguments in the lawsuit in favor of the Schon/Cain side.

Simply put, on the Walden non-membership issue, Journey was on hiatus between the end of the ROR tour and the beginning of recording for TBF. Perry, Schon, Cain, and Jackson were the only people to both record on ROR and perform on that tour, and none officially quit the band at that time, so they were the default members until Perry, Schon, Cain, Valory, and Smith reunited in 1995 to record TBF. Performing with, or recording with, Perry, Schon, Cain, or Jackson did not confer membership in Journey. Indeed, to suggest that Walden was a member of Journey at any time during the 1987-1995 hiatus is tantamount to suggesting that John Waite, Ricky Phillips, and Deen Castronovo (Schon and Cain's bandmates in Bad English) were members of Journey at that time. Castronovo indeed went on to join Journey in 1998, and Walden (pending resolution of the lawsuit) in 2020, but those facts don't retroactively make them members of Journey during the band's hiatus. Also, Herbie Herbert remained the manager of the "on hiatus" Journey until Perry fired him in '95; I doubt he would agree that Walden or anyone other than Perry, Schon, and Cain were members throughout that period.

No source has been cited wherein Valory and Smith have declared that they are currently "on hiatus" from Journey. Arguably Journey itself is on hiatus due to Covid-19 anyway. But this question goes to the nature of the lawsuit: who and what is Journey? If Schon and Cain win, they are Journey, and Valory and Smith are not. If they lose, Valory and Smith are current members of Journey. (Of course, Schon and Cain have said they will never work with Valory and Smith again, so in theory they would need to resign from Journey if they lose the lawsuit. But never say never.)

So I will continue to revert any edits which try to rewrite history to make Walden appear to be a former member of Journey or in any way alter the current membership status of Valory and Smith (unless new evidence is presented, or Talk Page consensus moves otherwise). And I ask that the other registered regular editors of the page help.

The references to an upcoming album are also concerning. Pending resolution of the lawsuit, we cannot say what band will be recording. Schon says that he, Cain, Pineda, Walden, Jackson, and Derlatka are recording, but unless and until he and Cain win the lawsuit, such a lineup isn't officially "Journey."

To be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm neither a judge nor a party to the lawsuit. However it is resolved, the Wikipedia page should be updated to reflect that. My concerns are only that the page be as accurate as possible and not be used by any party (or sympathizer to any party) in the lawsuit. Also, as a professional and published historian, I care about and understand the uses (and misuses) of history.

Dave Golland (talk) 21:27, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Chart History of Don't Stop Believin'
The unregistered user "informed consent" has made some excellent edits. Unregistered users cannot be "thanked" in the edit history. So, thanks!

I'd like to briefly discuss this one passage:


 * The second single, the now iconic "Don't Stop Believin'", actually charted lower than those two singles [ Who's Crying Now and Open Arms] in most markets at that time, such as peaking at number 9 in both the US and Canada. Then, in 2007, the song gained press coverage and a sharp growth in popularity when it was used in The Sopranos television series final episode prompting digital downloads of the song to soar.

I think it implies that the song wasn't as big a hit when first released than after the Sopranos finale because it only charted a US high of #9, compared with the album's other two singles. I think that fails to account for two factors:


 * 1) a #9 hit is a top ten hit, receiving copious airplay and contributing to significant album and ticket sales;

and (perhaps more importantly)


 * 2) the single charted against a different group of singles than the first and third singles; in other words, context matters.

I don't have immediately available the #1-#8 hits of the week(s) when the song was #9, but I'll bet they were tough contenders of equal popularity to the #1-#3 hits when "Who's Crying Now" peaked at #4 and the #1 hits when "Open Arms" peaked at #2 (Centerfold" by the J. Geils Band and "I Love Rock 'n' Roll" by Joan Jett and the Blackhearts).

In other words, some weeks are tougher than others, but that shouldn't detract from the thorough and widespread popularity of "Don't Stop Believin'" in 1981. The Sopranos finale didn't make the song a smash hit (but it obviously added greatly to its cachet).

Dave Golland (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Removal of opportunistic data from Wikipedia entries
There appears to be a growing trend of using Wikipedia articles (such as this one) for self-promotion and product plugging. For example, the popular culture section of this article contained an advertisement for a novel series called "Lady In Red" by an author, Jackie Hemingway. There are no Wikipedia articles for Jackie Hemingway or her books, which means she is tagging these articles inappropriately with mundane references.

Here's another example, using the entry for the Bologna massacre: "The bombing is also mentioned in the 2021 novel, Lady In Red, by Jackie Hemingway. News reports about the bombing are being broadcast over the radio as the main protagonist, Jack Hemingway, purchases a book in a Liverpool, England, bookstore." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6080:EF05:973B:B437:D895:2F21:3879 (talk) 19:29, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

the other lawsuits in the 2020-present section
can we please add the other lawsuits that happened? we had the steve smith & ross valory lawsuit. then the Steve Perry lawsuit. Then the Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain credit card lawsuit followed shortly by the very recent cease and desist. these lawsuits are very recent and they're not on the site 72.66.45.99 (talk) 07:58, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If there can be sources found to support them, then yes. HorrorLover555 (talk) 17:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ HorrorLover555 (talk) 05:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Gregg Rolie: Member or special guest?
I'll start. If I had to guess, it's going to be something like Bernie Leadon's recent appearances with Eagles. They'll trot him out to play on some of the songs he played on and then send him backstage for the rest of the show. He won't be a full member again. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 16:17, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I would add to this, stating if there is general proof that Gregg has returned to the band as a current member, it would have to have numerous multiple reliable sources that are covering on it. So far, the only sources I have seen are Neal Schon announcing that he would be joining "for the tour". If he is joining for the tour, that does not make him a current member again as I have the feeling that editors placing his name in current, are only reading the headline and not the source in-depth. However, if they do have a source that proves he is returning to the band, then they should present them here. HorrorLover555 (talk) 18:08, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * With two recent sources from yesterday, Schon already gave the news that Rolie will not be joining the band on tour.
 * With the recent news in regarding Gregg Rolie joining the band on tour or not, the back-and-forth additions of Gregg Rolie as a member should come to a halt. HorrorLover555 (talk) 15:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * With the recent news in regarding Gregg Rolie joining the band on tour or not, the back-and-forth additions of Gregg Rolie as a member should come to a halt. HorrorLover555 (talk) 15:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * With the recent news in regarding Gregg Rolie joining the band on tour or not, the back-and-forth additions of Gregg Rolie as a member should come to a halt. HorrorLover555 (talk) 15:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Jonathan Cain, lead vocals
The members section seems to list Jonathan Cain with backing and lead vocals. The only justification I have got is from HorrorLover555  who said "Cain has done lead vocals on an album." but so has Schon, on two Next and Generations. Any live videos of Cain singing in concerts would be justification. 80s Sam (talk) 22:18, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Listing Beal Schon as a lead vocalist would be OK, I think. Just speaking for myself, I got no problem with that. Judging by videos from the most recent tours, drummer Deen Castronovo and keyboardist Jason Derlatka also sing leads on occasion as well. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 03:09, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The thing is, YouTube is not a reliable source for coverage on it per WP:RSPYT due to unverifiability, unless it is a video uploaded from the official band channel. I still stand with what I said, as Cain has performed lead vocals on Generations, and yes, Schon has too - so would it more count as "occasional lead vocals" for both? HorrorLover555 (talk) 15:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Youtube is about as reliable a source as there is when it comes to determining who sings the leads in concert. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 16:02, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * In order to avoid cluttering the table, members should only be listed by their primary instruments. If a member normally plays, say, bass guitar, but for one song on one album, also played glockenspiel, then it really isn't worth it to list them on the members table as playing that instrument.  It's not supposed to be a complete list of every credit they've ever received, only their primary instruments (or singing parts, as necessary).  That Cain sings the occasional song as a lead vocalist doesn't mean they should be listed as such in the members section; only if that was a major role for them.  Which it isn't.  -- Jayron 32 16:19, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Dave Golland (talk) 12:28, 28 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I can agree with this. We should use the primary instruments for the band members in the article. Sure, Schon and Cain have sung a few songs on lead vocals studio-wise, but in concert - maybe backing vocals but not lead. However, there has been no footage of either member singing lead in concert - so I do not think it would count as lead or "occasional lead" as it was only in studio. HorrorLover555 (talk) 13:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)