Talk:Jovan Belcher

Why?
Why dont you wait? Why dont you wait until its been confirmed by the Police Dept? Its sad that people are so excited to go change something so quickly out of respect to Everyone Involved dont change it until its Confirmed by Police not a sports reporter  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.220.221 (talk) 17:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Suicide?
Anybody got any source other than a secondhand tweet? Really curious as to just what the Hell's going on in KC MO right now. DodgerOfZion (talk)

Unless there is confirmation from the authorities, don't both changing anything.Qazox (talk) 16:09, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

- As of right now, there is no confirmation from authorities that it was indeed Mr. Belcher. Until that happens, I suggest the page be locked from editing, if possible. yoshiegg25 (talk) 16:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC) - I concur with previous. jwhouk 16:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Jason LaCanfora of CBS Sports is saying on twitter sources from the team are confirming the suicide, but I don't know if that is sourced enough to use on wiki (https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/274904815321096193) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jatkins679 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Still not very well corroborated, but an additional source: http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2012/12/1/3714328/jovan-belcher-dead-shooting-at-arrowhead 76.21.182.29 (talk) 16:24, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's still using speculative tweets that cite no sources as its source. Speculation on speculation (possibly on speculation).  There's no reason to be speedy here.  Let's wait until the authorities make a confirmation.  Ol Yeller21  Talktome  16:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This needs to be removed until there is confirmation. There is no confirmation nor that he was anything but only rumors he was "involved" at this time. Seola (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2012 (UTC) 16:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Alleged murder-suicide
I don't feel that the page should reflect the subject's death until it is confirmed by police in the area. Wikipedia is not a news website and reflecting unconfirmed speculation isn't needed. Do any users familiar with our guildeines and policies disagree?  Ol Yeller21 Talktome  16:25, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree, I just removed the 'presumed dead' tag. Thank you for protecting the article. People if this is true a reputable publication will run a story within the hour. Out of respect for all involved (and Wikipedia rules), just wait until that happens to add anything about this to the article. DegenFarang (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Completely disagree. Jason La Canfora and CBS Sports are a WP:RS who are not using "speculative tweets". They're using sources they do everyday. Many other reliable sources are also saying the same thing: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-rt-fbn-chiefs-newssxedb9aa1-20121201,0,5250955.story http://www.kmbc.com/news/kansas-city/Police-Chiefs-player-shoots-girlfriend-self-at-Arrowhead-Stadium/-/11664182/17619444/-/bffw1c/-/index.html  Giants27 ( T  |  C )  16:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's another WP:RS who's reporting that Belcher is dead: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/01/chiefs-linebacker-jovan-belcher-dead-in-apparent-murder-suicide/ -- Giants27 ( T  |  C )  16:50, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And another running with the story: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/12/01/chiefs-muder-suicide/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp -- Giants27 ( T  |  C )  16:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Some of these articles are now dead (SBNation is one) and all the current sources are "apparently", "may have", "allegedly", or "according to" which points to either Twitter or the same starting sources that also cite "allegedly", "rumored", etc. It's obviously quite likely, but until there is confirmation via the team or a source like ESPN confirming, it should not be listed. Seola (talk) 16:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ESPN is not inherently more reliable than the Chicago Tribune, a local Kansas City news site, ProFootballTalk, or Sports Illustrated. They have all stated the same info, that Belcher killed his girlfriend and then himself. It does not point to Twitter, since they're all citing sources close to the information. These are all reliable sources and all of them are fine with running the info.-- Giants27 ( T  |  C )  17:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's been confirmed by KCPD that is was Belcher. It was confirmed on the radio, per tweets, so I'm sure there will be articles from reliable sources flooding in.  Still, there was no reason to start an edit war when the only article that claimed his death were speculative and a single article stating that he was "involved in a shooting" was based on an anonymous source.  Being speedy has no value here.  It was uncalled for.  Ol Yeller21  Talktome  17:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To expand, citing anonymous sources is something that is widely done when "journalists" feel that they can take a chance and come out on top with no consequences. Even if they're wrong, there are no consequences, especially in sports.  Look at trade, hiring/firing, and conference realignment articles and you'll see a plethora or articles that cite anonymous sources that turn out to be incorrect.  There is no value to speculating as Wikipedia is not a news source.  Read that link.  It's policy.  WP:BLP covers this specifically at WP:BDP.  Also policy and one of our most important.
 * In the future, please adhere to policy when speculating about a person's death. There's no need to use source that cite tweets or sources that cite anonymous sources about the subject "being involved" when it's obvious that a reliable source will be present in less than a day.  This is an encyclopedia.  Not TMZ.  Ol Yeller21  Talktome  17:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I know that both of those are policies. I've been actively editing Wikipedia for four years now. It's not like I'm a newbie. However, once I saw a reliable source that verified the information (CBS Sports), I added the correct information as reported. With all deaths, there is always speculation as to what exactly happened, but what we knew was true based on a source that is always reliable is that Belcher had killed himself.-- Giants27 ( T  |  C )  17:27, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You keep proclaiming that the source is reliable even though it was based on an anonymous source and didn't even mention his death, only that he was involved. It's clear that your mind isn't up to being changed so I'll just say that, in my opinion, that source wasn't anywhere good enough and the benefit of using that shotty source wasn't worth the risk when we gain absolutely nothing - not a single thing - out of reporting his death minutes early.
 * The risk did not outweigh the reward because there was no reward as outlined by the links I provided that you yourself have assured us that you know. You have not and will not be able to give a solid argument as to why waiting for less than an hour wasn't justified when the risk of not waiting is outlined in the other policy that you have assured us that you know.
 * I'm headed to the zoo. On a side note, the article may benefit from a full lock.  Have a great day, everyone.  Ol Yeller21  Talktome  17:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article sited to validate the statement "On the morning of December 1, 2012, Kansas City police confirmed that Belcher fatally shot his girlfriend before driving to Arrowhead Stadium, where he then shot himself," does not say anything about police confirming Belcher's identity. In fact, it states that an anonymous source confirmed Belcher's identity because KCP would not.71.193.184.93 (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You still don't have a source for this information. Fix the statement to reflect the true nature of the article (anonymous source, not confirmed by authorities) or remove the statement all together. Earlier someone wrote that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not TMZ. Well, it's not a journalistic operation either. You're jumping out ahead of reputable new sources like ABC news, CNN and ESPN. Why? 71.193.184.93 (talk) 17:59, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * IP is correct here, I believe. The police have confirmed that a shooting took place at the Chiefs' practice facility in the morning, and that a player was involved; an anonymous source has told this reliable publication that it was Belcher. Do we have a better source where Belcher is confirmed directly by the authorities? I may reconfigure the language to accurately reflect the source unless there are objections. --Batard0 (talk) 18:08, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I already tried to do so but you are welcome to improve upon it.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 18:11, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried to clarify the sourcing further...please make any amendments as necessary. I think what's there reflects what the source says pretty accurately, though I could be missing something as always. --Batard0 (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 18:21, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The news outlets which are stating that police have confirmed his identity (Fox News, Huffington Post, etc) all seem to site KCTV News in Kansas City as their source. http://www.kctv5.com/story/20234680/police-chiefs-players-kills-girlfriend-then-kills-self. However, the KCTV article is actually very vague about its sources. It states "reports say a Chiefs player shot and killed himself in front of the head coach and general manager after killing his girlfriend Saturday morning," and "officials said Belcher shot and killed his girlfriend and then drove to the practice facility, where he shot and killed himself." Who are these "officials?" If I had to guess, I'd surmise police have not confirmed his identity to any news agency and outlets like HP and Fox are mistaken in believing KCTV has an official police confirmation. 71.193.184.93 (talk) 18:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That said, CNN has it now, via SI. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/12/01/chiefs-muder-suicide/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 71.193.184.93 (talk) 18:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's no direct public confirmation from the police, which is reflected in the article as it stands now. The "Death" section simply repeats what's in USA Today (without copying it, of course). I'd suggest that we hold off on anything further until we get some kind of official confirmation. They're probably holding off until proper notification is given to the family. I'm not convinced that the SI report is anything other than a repeat of the police statement with the writer's own inference as to the identity of the player. Don Banks also appears to be a columnist, not a regular reporter. --Batard0 (talk) 18:31, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's now direct confirmation from police in a reliable source here. Named source is Police Capt. David Lindaman. --Batard0 (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

As an example as to why a single journalist citing an anonymous source isn't reliable, no matter what their stature, here's an example. This issue seems to be particularly common in sports news. Hopefully in the future, when it comes to BLPs, those here won't feel the need to jump to publish information to WP (not a news source) that hasn't been confirmed but can be damaging. My example, of course, is anecdotal but as no one can prove that waiting goes against WP's goal, policies, or guidelines, I think the example underlines the concept of waiting. We gain nothing by publishing minutes/hours/days early and can only cause damage by jumping the gun. I've taken this page off my watchlist so if you wish to discuss this issue with me, please do so on my talk page.  Ol Yeller21 Talktome  19:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

His mother
He allegedly shot her in front of his own mother. Not her mother. His mother is actually the one who contacted police. The woman who contacted the police referred to the victim as her daughter (hence the confusion). Jchiarotto (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right, the sources say it was his mother. I have made the change. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Goodness...a bunch of the sources say his mother, but this Reuters article says her mother. Probably best to wait until all the details come out re: motives and the circumstances, but this is confusing to say the least. --Batard0 (talk) 17:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Lock the article
Someone should probably lock this article. Has anyone put a request in yet? Kjscotte34 (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article was semi-protected a little while ago (not by me). Mackensen (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was going to submit the request a little while ago, considering there's a lack of sources so far, and not even ESPN is reporting a name to this.  Plus, considering it is being reported as a murder-suicide, there are going to be some severe vandalism attempts on this page.  Kjscotte34 (talk) 16:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. This will have LOTS of rumors, conjecture for several months based on the murder aspects.  Lots of rumors already.  Lock it down. Seola (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The lock is only until December 15, I think this may need to be extended.-- Astros4477 ( talk ) 17:35, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Two weeks should be good for now, as long as a few people are keeping an eye out.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 17:50, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Revisions
Just as a heads-up, I've given the article a fairly substantial freshening-up, fully referencing it and adding some new information. Those watching here may want to take a look and make any changes, if necessary. --Batard0 (talk) 09:33, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Under the Death section - Can someone please change "Chiefs Head Coach Romeo Crennel and linebackers coach Gary Gibbs joined the conversation and tried to talk him to putting the gun down" to read "Chiefs Head Coach Romeo Crennel and linebackers coach Gary Gibbs joined the conversation and tried to talk him into putting the gun down"?
 * Remove the extra period from last sentence of second paragraph ("Armour Boulevard but felt he was capable of driving so took no action..").
 * Revise third paragraph ("Deadspin reported that Belcher following the November 18 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals...") to read "Deadspin reported that, Belcher, following the November 18 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals..." or "Deadspin reported that following the November 18 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals Belcher...". 98.85.17.62 (talk) 20:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Revisions on 6 December or before seem to have satisfied or eliminated above edit requests, and make for a much better read, imo. Thanks Batard0 for improving the article! 98.70.79.155 (talk) 20:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

West Babylon post season
I just made a correction as West Babylon does not participate in a state championship. New York City schools as well as those on Long Island do not participate in state championship competition. The highest championship on Long Island is the Long Island Football Championships and West Babylon has never played in the title game (although it was in the brackets leading to the championship game). The Maine reference refers to playoffs and editors have made the leap to a state championship.Americasroof (talk) 12:13, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Good edit -- the source just says "playoff appearances" without specifying what level. --Batard0 (talk) 12:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your edits (and patient nature).Americasroof (talk) 01:55, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

No mention of the child?
I think the fact that she was not only his girlfriend but the mother of his 3 month old daughter Zoey Michelle should be mentioned somewhere. Comments?Naraht (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Long term, it will hit the child the hardest. On ESPN they said the team is working on figuring out some way to help the child. I'm guessing it would be to create a trust fund or something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * (Wikipedia hat) That would definitely stand as a reference. (Human hat) I certainly hope so.Naraht (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The online version of the Kansas City Star reported on Sunday that the team will indeed be establishing a fund for Zoey. I'm not giving the link because it's got advertisement popups. But you can google the subject if you want. I found it by entering [kansas city chiefs zoey]. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Kansas City residence is a house and not an apartment
The current version says that the shooting was at an apartment. I have not seen any reference to an apartment. It is described as a house in all articles I've seen (in the 5400 Block of Crysler Avenue in Kansas City https://maps.google.com/maps?q=5400+Crysler+Avenue,+Kansas+City,+Missouri&hl=en&ll=39.021118,-94.436159&spn=0.004843,0.010568&sll=40.697488,-73.979681&sspn=0.604921,1.352692&t=h&hnear=5400+Crysler+Ave,+Kansas+City,+Missouri+64133&z=17) Americasroof (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we might want to remove such minute details altogether. This is an encyclopedia, after all, not a police report. We should be summarizing what happened, not giving a blow-by-blow account. I'm also a bit skeptical about the reference to the professional wrestler at the end; the source appears to be unreliable (it's a blog of some kind, I believe). The incidents aren't very similar, in any case, other than that they're murder-suicides. Any thoughts? --Batard0 (talk) 05:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Very specific details is the whole point of Wikipedia. This death entry is relatively small in comparison to other articles.  I agree the wrestling thing could probably go though.Americasroof (talk) 05:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but Wikipedia is not a WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of information, and uses summary style. I think we can agree it wouldn't make sense to include the geographic coordinates of every location discussed in the article or the physical address of, say, the Chiefs training facility. Hence we don't really need these details in the case of the house where he killed his girlfriend. It would be good to get some views from other people watching here. --Batard0 (talk) 06:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:UNCENSORED - This is a huge story -- much bigger than the wrestling case (which has its own article). It has legs and now they've raised the brain.  injury card could become even bigger.  The coordinates of his house are telling because it's a murder scene.  It's also a grand house in a modest neighborhood.  I can't recall any major sport where an active player killed himself in front of the coach.  The article could well spin off on its own.  Let the details ride for now.  Don't censor it.Americasroof (talk) 06:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not removing the details, just making some suggestions. Such a removal, if it were to occur, clearly would not constitute an act of censorship, as nobody considers the details objectionable as described under that policy. --Batard0 (talk) 07:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's kind of an odd coincidence that a study of brain injuries was released just 2 days after the event in KC. But if the news reports are correct, the most significant brain injury they're likely to find in Jovan Belcher will be the effect of putting a bullet through it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Batard0 - I appreciate your patience and diplomacy.:-) Americasroof (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Paragraph about concussions
Should we remove the paragraph about concussions. It basically extrapolates an unnamed source quoted by the rumor mill that is Deadspin, and launches into a discussion about players who have killed themselves after having concussions. This strikes me as a prime example of WP:SYNTH. (Note that we even have conflicting "data", none of which is particularly reliable, some of which said that he had a history of concussions and some of which said that he didn't.) Against the current (talk) 18:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with you. It's not only SYNTH, but a potential for WP:COATRACK problems. There may be a gut reaction on our part (or the media's) to tie this to Duerson, Seau et al., but until there's concrete proof, it's just an unverified allegation. The fact is that I don't know how much of his brain is salvageable for research anyway. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:34, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am troubled by the anonymous information at Deadspin (there has been a lot outlandish unsourced stuff in the blogosphere on this). CTE is being extensively discussed in the blogosphere in relation to Belcher.  I thought the now deleted wording gave a pretty skeptical eye to it (e.g., Clark Hunt's dismissing it and mentioning it was an anonymous source at Deadspin).  Some mention on CTE will ultimately work its way back into the article -- notably after the autopsy results.  In any event it is relevant there have been five other gunshot suicides.Americasroof (talk) 03:05, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "In any event it is relevant there have been five other gunshot suicides." That's actually our fundamental disagreement. I don't see how any mention of it doesn't violate WP:SYNTH. Even Clark Hunt's comments are frankly speculation. The nature of Deadspin isn't my main concern here; it's that it seems we are trying to draw conclusions here that aren't immediately germane to this particular topic. (And I say this as somebody who is deeply concerned about the issue of head injuries in football.) Against the current (talk) 04:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The suicide entry as stated now does not give a reason. By any stretch of the imagination it is very unusual to have that many suicides among such high profile people.  Americasroof (talk) 05:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Mentioning the other suicides is not synthesis of any kind; the other suicides are discussed in a reliable source in the context of the Belcher case. Unless someone wants to challenge the reliability of the source, it's fine to include. --Batard0 (talk) 06:32, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Belcher's only reported head injury was 2009
I am placing this link here so I don't lose it http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/jovan-belcher-kansas-city-chiefs-kills-self-suicide-kills-girlfriend-team-facility-120112 This is relation to the only reported head injury for Belcher was reported November 11, 2009 and he played four days later. User:Americasroof05:19, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

New freshening-up
To all who are watching here: I'm going to go in and do another freshening-up of the article to put the new information into more of an encyclopedic style. It's starting to balloon into a somewhat disjointed collection of information, and I'm going to try and make it more coherent. I'll do this in small steps so that people can revert and discuss in case of disagreement. --Batard0 (talk) 06:34, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just as a housekeeping thing, it would be great if editors could use the citation templates when adding new references, if they have the time. I'll clean them up and eliminate the bare links, but it would save time if they were appropriately formatted to begin with. --Batard0 (talk) 06:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to alert people that I've made one very significant edit: I've reordered the first paragraphs of the Death section to put them in chronological order. I think it makes more sense to do it this way; we've established in the lead that he died in a murder-suicide, so I think we can freely describe the circumstances of the death in a straightforward narrative, progressing from beginning to end. We now have all the details we need to do that, which wasn't the case before. --Batard0 (talk) 07:01, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've now finished this latest round of edits. --Batard0 (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Paternity questions leading to argument? Some reports are mentioning there were supposedly questions on whether Belcher was the father of Perkins' daughter. See this link if anyone able to edit the article thinks those details should be included: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/jovan-belcher-mother-says-her-son-questioned-paternity-160900469--nfl.html - 98.85.16.193 (talk) 22:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Murder-Suicide instead of Death?
While we usually use the neutral "death" to describe the deceased. However in this case a murder was committed. It seems "Murder-Suicide" would be more appropriate.Americasroof (talk) 15:52, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean in the section heading, right? I think "Death" is fine, because it fits with the general structure of sections in any biography. We start with his early life, progress through his career, and end in his death. The way he died is described clearly in the lead and elsewhere, and I don't think we necessarily need to reinforce that in the section heading. I'd note that in other articles about people who committed suicide, the section is often still called "Death" and not "Suicide". See Kurt Cobain, for example. This does not necessarily mean it should be done the same way here, but that this seems to be the general structure for these articles. I think it's one that works all right. --Batard0 (talk) 12:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Should we include the death a week later in this article?
The content regarding Brent was removed by an editor, I boldly reverted, and my edit has been subsequently reverted by a third party. Rather than edit warring, I thought I'd start a discussion using the WP:BRD model. Frankly, I'm neutral on the topic; the only reason I originally reverted was because it was unexplained removal of content. Should we include the info. on subsequent player deaths? Go  Phightins  !  17:02, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see what it has to do with Belcher. It looks to me like someone POV pushing against the NFL. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The two events certainly deserve mention in 2012 in the NFL or whatever a season summary might be called. But the circumstances of the two players' deaths have nothing in common, so they don't really belong in each others' articles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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