Talk:Jubaland

Similarly named areas
Is Jubaland coextensive with Jubbada Dhexe and/or Jubbada Hoose and/or Southwestern Somalia? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it included both of the present-day Jubbadas. One would want some old maps to doublecheck the extent. It would be handy to scan one of the map stamps as evidence... Stan 19:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Jubaland was everything west of the Juba River which is most of Gedo, Middle Juba, and Lower Juba regions. Postage stamp with map added. Compare to Image:Somalia_pol02.jpg. AjaxSmack 20:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Independence
Jubaland declared its independence from Somalia in 1998 

Is this true? I know it was de-facto independent but I thought it never declared independence, just like Puntland but in contrast to Somaliland. AndrewRT - Talk 15:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It was autonomous and operating "independently," but the local administration always considered rejoining Somalia once it reconstituted itself.

Jubaland- also Jubbaland. Following the secession of Puntland from Somalia in July of 1998, several regional leaders began preparing for independence. Under Mohamed Said Hersi, known as "General Morgan", the southern port of Kismayo was declared the capital of an independent Jubaland on September 3, 1998. Like Puntland's leadership, Said Hersi has avowed that Jubaland will rejoin a united Somalia. --Footnotes to History

--Petercorless 04:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Population
The article states that Jubaland had a population of 12,000 in 1926, now I've seen out-of-date statistics before, but this is ridiculous, lol. Is there no more up-to-date estimates? --Hibernian 05:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The population of Jubaland is estimated to be around 1000000 and most of the autonomous inhabitants belong to various sub clans of the Marehan Sade of Darood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.254.9.224 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 15 July 2010
 * Are you able to cite a source for this? Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:33, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Split Juba Valley Alliance from Jubaland
I am trying to distinguish between "Jubaland" the geographic and political area, from the Juba Valley Alliance, which is now a separate document. In actuality, it was not the JVA, but the SPM who declared Jubaland autonomous. The JVA has been rather staunchly "federalist" in leaning for years. --Petercorless 07:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Map
I created a map for the area, however I did not have a breakdown/division of the contested provinces of Gedo and Middle Juba regions (potentially also claimed by Southwestern Somalia), so put them entirely within "Jubaland" even though they might not be entirely claimed by Jubaland. --Petercorless 11:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

What happened to this page since around New Years 2006?
Bring some stuff back. This article is pathetic. Where did all that information go? For instance, the stamps mentioned above; did they delete themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.250.225 (talk) 01:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I split Jubaland (the 1998-1999 state) from Trans-Juba (the colonial territory) --Ingoman 05:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That was a content fork and there was a deletion of significant material. Jubaland has a much larger significance than just the late 1990s.  And Trans-Juba normally only refers to the Italian colonial era.  I have tried to restore it without undoing any subsequent edits and the two have been merged.  The article still needs a lot of work and some indecipherable material is in there "between the arrows"  that someone can deal with. —   AjaxSmack   00:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Someone actually listened! I think I even meant New Years 2007, but you guys understood anyway! Good job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.210.163 (talk) 01:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Jubaland restored?
According to this map Jubaland state was politically restored in 2011: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Somalia_map_states_regions_districts.png Does somebody have more info about that? Article should be expanded with this new info. PANONIAN 11:01, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Rebirth of Jubaland
As many of you who follows events in Somalia the rebirth of Jubaland regional state has been widely debated as both Centralist and Federalist have each accused dismantling the state of Somalia and its unity, putting aside this argument I call any editor on this page to be impartial and not carried away what he or she thinks should be the 3rd Republic of Somalia,

Thank you

Abdirisak (talk) 09:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Numbers?
The numbers in this entry are dazzling. As far as I can see, in 2005 we have 330.000 in Gedo, 390.000 in Lower Juba and 240.000 in Middle Juba. Total of 960.000. So numbers mentioned were halfway correct; after the last edit (20 September 2013) they are all incorrect. As well, totals between 2005 and 2013 have changed. Can anyone chjeck this mess? Good luck..Super48paul (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Title: Jubaland, Azania and Juba Interim Administration
The title of this article and the use of the term Jubaland are problematic. Jubaland did indeed exist as a defined entity until its integration with Italian Somalia in 1925. Since then, however, no de facto entity known as Jubaland has ever controlled the three regions of Gedo, Middle Juba and Lower Juba.

The Jubaland State of Somalia was declared in 2013, but has not been recognised by the Somali Federal Government. Under the terms of the Addis Ababa accord, the leadership has agreed to be called the "Juba Interim Administration" and to submit the petition for formal statehood to the procedures established by the Somali Provisional Constitution: This will involve a review of the application by the Boundaries and Federation Commission, which will submit its findings and recommendations to Parliament for a final decision.

In sum, the Jubaland State of Somalia has been declared, but according to the terms of the Addis Agreement and the Provisional Constitution, does not yet officially exist. And the Juba interim Authority currently controls only parts of Lower Juba, virtually none of Middle Juba (which remains under control of Al-Shabaab) and portions of Gedo.

Capturing this complexity in the article will be challenging, but it is important that changes be made to reflect the ambiguities of the present situation.HOA Monitor (talk) 15:55, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That seems to be a rather long title. Whether an official state or an interim administrative area is under discussion, it is likely the common name is Jubaland. It is the text that should explain the situation, not the article title. CMD (talk) 17:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Jubaland is the commonname, so that's what the page is named per WP:COMMONNAME. Middayexpress (talk) 20:56, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, HOA Monitor - It would be incorrect to say Jubbaland does not exist, it does as a region. The interim government is the head of this region, consisting of Lower Juba, Middle Juba and Gedo as stated in Article 1 as per the agreement. Secondly, the Boundaries and Federation Commission does not exist and no law enacting its establishment has been created or even put forth in accordance with article 111 by parliament thus its existence is not in violation of the provisional constitution. The issue of creating such body dealing with borders has been highlighted in a speech by Somali president Hasan Sheikh Mohamud. The reason why this article is named Jubbaland rather than a longer version is because of what's already been highlighted by others here, WP:COMMONNAME. 26oo (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

My proposal is not to change the name, but to reflect the fact that Jubaland is a historical and aspirational entity, rather than a legal or de facto one. I am sure that appropriate language can be found to this effect, and am prepared to propose some if no one else does.HOA Monitor (talk) 00:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If you don't want to change the article name, then are you proposing edits to the lead? CMD (talk) 12:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think it's problematic that the lead begins with the term "The Jubaland State of Somalia" as though this were in fact the subject of the article and that it were entirely equivalent with the temr "Jubaland". I would propose that the lead describe Jubaland as a part of Somalia that previously enjoyed a discrete identity and existence under colonial administration, and many of whose inhabitants currently aspire to the restoration of that identity as a federal member state of Somalia. The Jubaland State of Somalia was declared in 2013, but has yet to be recognised either by the Somali Federal Government, and a final determination of its status is subject to review by the yet-to-be established Boundaries and Federation Commission, and the Somali Federal Parliament. In the meantime, its political status is defined by the Addis Ababa accord of 2012. It should probably also be noted that some inhabitants of the Juba Valley oppose the establishment of Jubaland because they are concerned that it will be dominated by certain clans, and have reacted to the establishment of the current Juba Interim Authority with a number of counter proposals, including the formation of a 6-region, southwestern Somalia state headquartered at Baidoa. More precise wording should of course be found, but this is roughly how I propose that the lead by structured.HOA Monitor (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind the lead should be a brief summary. It might be worth crafting a Politics section in the article if you want to detail the current situation, and anything is missing in History. The idea sounds good, so if you propose specific wording for the lead everyone can have a look. CMD (talk) 14:17, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Politics are already integrated into the history section. Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The main proponents of the six-region southwestern state proposal are for the most part not from Jubaland's three regions, but rather from Bay and Bakool, where the defunct southwestern state was previously centered. That said, the Jubaland administration is a reality on the ground, and has been de jure as well since the Addis Ababa agreement with the Federal Government. As User:26oo notes above, that agreement officially recognizes the Juba Interim Administration, which is to administer the territory for a two year period. Jubaland already exists as a state; the demarcation of its boundaries just haven't been finalized as Article 1 in the linked agreement indicates ("the duration of the Interim Administration shall be a period of not more than 2 years, during which - and subject to the constitutional process - a permanent Federal Member State will be established"). Middayexpress (talk) 15:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Chipmunk. I think the key is simply to alter the term 'Jubbaland State of Somalia" in the lead, and then -- as you suggest -- to include details in the politics section. With respect to Midday's predictable objections, proponents of the six-region administration are mainly of the Digil-Mirifle clan, most of whom do not live in the Juba Valley.However, many Digil-Mirifle do inhabit the Jubas, notably eastern Gedo and Middle Juba, as well as parts of Lower Juba. Some Marehan leaders from Gedo are also proponents of the six-region state. regardless of whether or not one supports this initiative (which, in my personal opinion) has little traction or chance of success, it does reflect the fact that many Digil-Mirifle and Marehan habour reservations about the current JIA leadership's composition and intentions, and are therefore making a counter-proposal. Whether or not a "permanent" federal member state will be established in the current three regions claimed by the Juba Interim Administration is, as I have indicated, a matter for the Parliament to decide, on the recommendation of the yet-to-be established BFC. The SFG has announced an initiative named "Vision 2016" to facilitate this process. the bilateral agreement reached in Addis and cited by Midday is a constructive political arrangement, but lacks the force of law under the Provisional Constitution.HOA Monitor (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * CMD said propose specific wording for the lead that everyone can first have a look at; that means here on this talk page per the BRD process. Also, most Digil and Mirifle (Rahanweyn) indeed do not live in the Jubaland area . It's therefore inaccurate to suggest that many of them object to the Jubaland administration. Middayexpress (talk) 22:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It is true that most Digil-Mirifle do not, but many nevertheless do, and arguably constitute a majority in some districts. I am happy to provide credible sources to this effect. Furthermore, the participation of prominent Marehan political figures such as the son of former Somali president Maslax Mohamed Siyaad Barre (see, for example, http://somaligazette.com/?p=1371) reinforce the perception of controversy. I will propose specific wording as CMD as requested in the next few days.HOA Monitor (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Rahanweyn do not have a large presence in the Jubas, including politically. Bay and Bakool are their main constituencies. Middayexpress (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Numerous sources confirm the presence of "a significant minority" of Rahanweyne in the Juba Valley, including, for example, the following authoritative sources: http://www.justice.gov/eoir/vll/country/canada_coi/somalia/Issues_Paper_victims_and_vulnerable_groups.pdf http://www.asylumlaw.org/docs/somalia/dis00_somalia_minoritygroups.pdf http://cewarn.org/attachments/article/214/Somalia%20CEWERU%20Report%20Final.pdf These are official sources, commissioned by the Canadian, British, Danish and Dutch governments, as well as CEWARN, which is a project of the intergovernmental organisation, IGAD.

Please support you objection to this position with equally authoritative sources.HOA Monitor (talk) 13:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not say that the Rahanweyn have no presence at all in the Jubbas. I said that they are concentrated/have a stronghold in Bay and Bakool, and form a numerical minority in the Jubaland area. Only the CIA map linked earlier shows the actual clan distributions, and it bears this out . Middayexpress (talk) 14:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

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Restored section
By this edit I have just restored material deleted by. I think if the user looks more closely at Egyptian and Arabic, the user will find that the Egyptian language is a variant, dialect, of Arabic, and is mostly *written* in formal Arabic. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)