Talk:Judean date palm

Not a species
Not a species. Not a Lazarus taxon. A reference might halp sort out what's actually happening here. --Wetman 05:01, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Why did it become extinct in the first place????Michalis Famelis 01:25, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I also want to know why this plant became extinct. I haven't found much, however. I've run into various conflicting information sites. Some say gone since 700 AD, by the time of the Crusades... if the palm was so important, why did it die out? -- VegitaU 06:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, dates varieties at the time only came from offshoots, seeds don't produce the same as the parent tree, they need human contact, the crusases were a ongoing big war, the main thing then was to stay alive, not to menetion the many years previous many plant life died.

I'm still confused, even with the references, though the sprouting of the seed is spectacular in itself. The "Judean date palm" is not a different species from Phoenix dactylifera the date palm of universal commerce, but a long-lost antique cultivar, isn't that it? We aren't reading about a different species of the genus Phoenix. Aren't we being told that the date palm, P. dactylifera became locally extinct in the area? The date palms in California were imported there in the 19th century, so the fact that Israel's modern date palms came from Californian stock isn't biologically relevant. Dates are cultivated nearby in the Sinai and in Jordan. --Wetman 04:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with these concerns; what species etc. are we looking at, and how do they think this seed differs from modern varieties? Fascinating article!  --Dvyost 13:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

- - : We looking at The Judean date which is a [Cultivar/Variety], Like e.g., Medjouls, it is a misconception the Judean date variety was revived, it offspring is. Ancient and modern Date cultivars are grow by using offshoots, they are identical to the parental plant, a seed is not, it share genes from it mother (the fruit bearer) & the male (pollen bearer).

This article is baloney
Did anyone read any sources other than the researcher who germinated this ancient palm tree? I've been combing the literature, and as far as I can tell, this lady is the only person in the history of science who has ever imagined that there's any such thing as a "Judean" cultivar. If you read the ancient sources, and I have added real live actual reliable sources to the article now, it's clear that in ancient times, MANY different varieties of date were cultivated. This thing about the Romans wiping out the dates is a COMPLETE FICTION. IT NEVER HAPPENED. The Romans happily kept growing dates all the way up until they lost control of the area. The decline in date growing really slowly ramped up in the early 2nd millennium CE, and was probably due to a combination of climate change and the devastation of the Crusades (see the Goor reference in the main article.) Tarchon (talk) 07:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

2000 years is it the oldest tree?
"The oldest tree seed that's ever been sprouted." Ehm, I seem to remember that researchers have grown seeds found in Arctic/Antarctic ice. Those seeds were at least 50 thousand years old or so... (Some of those seeds grew to big coniferous trees typical for the far north and some to very nice flowers by the way.) But for a non-frozen seed 2000 years might be some kind of record. Sorry to spoil the fun... But yeah, it is impressive that a living cell can hibernate for thousands of years and then grow into a tree. --David Göthberg 14:24, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see a source on that. It seems doubtful that seeds could last 50,000 years because the DNA would become degraded.Gary 23:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Seedling might not be a real Judean date palm?
I'm not a botany expert, but if the Judean date palm is a true cultivar, that means it was propagated exclusively by cuttings by the original farmers, like apple or grape varieties. Would this mean that the seedling currently being grown won't mature into a true Judean date palm? Unless I'm mistaken, a seed from a Granny Smith apple won't grow into a true Granny Smith apple tree, maybe a similar situation would occur here. It'll be a date palm obviously, but with different characteristics from the parent tree. --Bk0 00:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * While it's true that some cultivars require clonal propagation to remain true, others do not. For example, there exist true-breeding tomato cultivars as well as the hybrid cultivars that are more genetically unstable. 2601:40D:4400:2CB:9070:AEC:6111:ECDB (talk) 01:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

update?
I was wondering if there were any updates about this plant. Is it still growing? I haven't heard anything from it since 2005. Gary 18:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, its still growing and thriving. I last heard about it around January 2006. Its got quite a few leaves. I'll try source the article I saw and update the wikipedia entry. Ayinyud 09:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, here we go. I managed to find a news article from February 2006. Check it out at .Ayinyud 09:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm glad to see that it's doing well. Gary 07:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I heard Crusaders wiped them out. It is also to note that genetic testing has been conducted, on the leaf, it hasn't revealed its gender but, on the other hand it has been compared to other dates tree genetic structure.

It is still alive and 2 meters high but it's a little bit small for its age.

And it is not, I repeat it is not the oldest tree revived, even Dr. Solowey said so. Some wanted to make a story for people to read or just assumed it was.

I guess Dr. Sarah Sallon it seems might be the one who said it as the oldest revived plant Mrs. Sallon is a medincal Doctor and researcher. Mrs.Solowey is a renowned horticulturalist.

The Judean date is actually the oldest which Mrs.Solowey has proably grew.

According to Dr.Yuval Cohen

Dates are (and were for thousands of years), propagated vegetatively from offshoots (or sprouts). Therefore, trees of a certain cultivar are all genetically similar and have similar characters. However, a date seedling (like Methuselah), is a mixture of characters inherited from ifs male and female parents (as each of us carries characters from his mother and father and is not the same as either of them). Therefore, Methuselah is not like its Maternal, female tree, and the fruit quality of it (in case it will be found to be a female at all), will not be similar to those of the ancient date trees that grew 2,000 years ago and generated the seed.

Has any consider putting pictures of the revived tree on there? . . . The Most recent ones.

"Genetic testing puts it close to an old Egyptian variety called Hiani with 13% variable DNA different. . . The radiocarbon dating of the exocarp but the seed age at between 35 and 65 AD."

"According to historical sources, that taste was splendid. The Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder, who lived in the first century C.E., wrote that Judea's dates were known for their succulence & sweetness."

So its 2010 now, any update?, is it female?--77.213.191.134 (talk) 21:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Embryo rescue tissue culture for the other seed., maybe?
I heard that they might embryo rescue and tissue culture from living DNA in old seeds [other 2, date pitts]....

Could a containinated (Mixed with other breeds) Judean dates survive till today?
I wonder if the the Judean date cultivar did survive & is maybe in nearby Jordan, Also There "wild" (non-Commercial) dates in Israel cultivated used nomads, taught to be planted by nomads, it might be the same or related to ancient Judean dates. I don't know, I was told that the DNA comparison only compared it to 3 modern cultivar commercial cultivars, and I heard nothing of about I parental DNA, of the mother, I heard the Egyptian Hiani seemed to closely related it shared 13% of the same DNA which Methuselah it’s estimated to be have 50% of it mother DNA, so they are related.

Is it true the as according to Professor El-Said of King Saud University, Riyadh, the sex of a date palm is often difficult to determine and the tree can even change its sex before reaching maturity. An examination of the flowers of a young tree may not necessarily be very helpful in revealing its true sex.

How it survived
it's said, The seeds were in a “jar” - sort of a trash can for date pits. This means that the seeds were in a fairly sheltered place in the fortress - sheltered enough that the jar itself could survive. Because Masada is in the desert, the air would tend to be dry, and the jar would tend to protect the seed from extreme temperatures. In other words, the seeds were in a place where the temperature and humidity stayed pretty stable - ideal conditions to prevent the seed from degrading. Because the seeds were in a jar, they wouldn’t be subjected to abrasion by sand or wear and tear from the wind - two factors that can quickly erode a seed away. The jar also prevented small animals from nibbling on the seeds. In other words, the seeds were protected from all of the physical things that would normally detroy it. All it had to do was maintain viability until the right conditions came along.

Why We Should Plant More
We need the others seeds contained in that jar, to be attempt, to grow them too. Some people think it's a big risk, we could lose the seed/-s to rot in dirt, "big risk" for what? for it seat in a drawer or somewhere, doing nothing, that's a big risk! Of what real benefit is it sitting, we have pictures of them. These seeds are less then the estimated (estimated is the keyword) 1(seed) :(per) 1000(chances)to grow, & maybe still die. These seeds were sheltered in perfect condtidions, & a professional/-s to grow. Mrs. E. Solowey., is an expert she may doubt her ability to grow them, but still the conditions of past attempts of growing ancient is different, from know, she planted 3 seeds, 1 grew by the information it's a 1:3 ratio maybe, What's the risk?

Gibberish to me (I don't understand)
"It is not a true-to-type, in other words it not a product of an offshoot, or tissue culture (clones) rather it's, an offspring from a seedling, heterozygosity exists, It's the product of the mother (fruit bear), & the male (Make pollen which fertilizes the flower to produce fruit), an offshoot would be a true-to-type."

Please translate this into English, if someone understands the language used...

Want a translation: [It's simple] an offshoot is the tree which grows from root it is Identical to the parent tree, thus like a "clone', called “a true-to-type". A seedling (plant the comes from a seed) it not identical it come from two parents,

A male tree pollinates & A female which produce fruit quality, & can make fruit.

thus in the word heterozygosity exist, [A measure of the genetic variation in a population]. Not really givverish rather big science words, I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms.

Why this tree is not true-to-type, better translation...

As mentioned, an offshoot, like a clipping, is produced by a process known as "vegetative propagation" and is a clone of the older plant. For example, many hanging house plants do this naturally and you can see the offshoot sprouting roots. If you clip one of those offshoots you will get a new plant that is genetically identical to the original "mother" plant. Which is really not a "mother" plant, but a much older identical twin sister plant.

So 2000 years ago, a date farmer would cut an offshoot from an existing tree and plant it. Thereby growing a new tree that is genetically identical to the "mother" tree. And since it is the tree that produces the fruit, the fruit will be the same as if it came from the mother tree. Delicious.

But, the genetic material in the seed that is inside the date fruit is different. The genetic material of the seed is a product of sexual reproduction via pollination where half of the genetic material comes from the mother tree and half comes from the father tree.

The date fruit is made by only the mother tree. Whereas, the date seed that is inside the fruit is half mom, half dad.

Now here is where things get sticky... True, both mom and dad are Judean date palms. And you would think therefore that the seed they produce is 100% Judean date palm. Wrong.

Let's say the special Judean flavor gene is a dominant gene (like brown eyes). And into this particular seed, mom contributes a bitter gene which is recessive (like blue eyes), and dad also contributes the same recessive bitter gene. Then the seed inside that Judean flavored date will grow into a tree that produces bitter dates. (the same way two brown eyed parents can make a blue eyed child)

The point being, with "vegetative propagation" (like a cutting) the result is true-to-type and you known exactly what the resulting fruit will be. With pollination, you simply don't know what that tree will grow up to produce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.217.164.134 (talk) 22:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Menetioned in the Qu'ran
The Qur’an, in Chapter 6 (“Mary”), describes how Jesus was born under a date palm, and how the tree dropped fresh ripe dates in Mary’s lap for her to eat—and I knew, from my many visits to Yemen, that villagers believe a steady diet of dates helps a nursing mother produce abundant milk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 04:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

wrong link for methusala?
It links to a palm tree in the white mountains of california, 5000 years old but a different plant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.68.25 (talk) 16:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Dating
Was it really necessary to bust out the radiometric dating (which I still don't understand how it's calibrated, hasn't the carbon in the seed been recycled many times?) for something found in Herod's palace? Everyone knows when Herod lived. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 04:58, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

So, why did the Judean date palm become extinct?
It looks like we're still waiting for someone to answer the question. Was the Judean date palm destroyed as a form of ecological warfare by the Romans or some other group -- as, say, the forces of the United States sought to exterminate the Bison (American Buffalo) as part of its war of genocide against Native-Americans in the 19th century? Did the palms require artificial irrigation or propagation that was neglected for some reason as the Roman empire declined? Were the palms the victim of climate change as the Middle East became hotter and drier than it has been during the last Ice Age?

I am not looking to direct the answer in any direction, and I hope someone who knows more about this than I do can provide an update on the research in this area. (71.22.47.232 (talk) 09:11, 23 January 2011 (UTC))

Gender
Apparently, Methuselah is male (according to one blog I read online—the best source I could find). The Jade Knight (talk) 00:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

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Updates

 * -- URIEL (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL:): (DNA similar to related modern Moroccan variety Mahalbit)
 * -- JONAH (MATERNAL: PATERNAL:): (DNA similar to modern Moroccan variety Medjool)
 * -- BOAZ (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL:): (DNA similar to modern Moroccan variety: Jihel)


 * -- JUDITH (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: ...): (DNA similar to related to Iraqi varieties Khyara)
 * -- HANNAH (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: ...): (modern Iraqi varieties Khastawi and Ami Hajj)


 * -- ADAM (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: Western): (DNA similar to assigned to current Arabian Gulf varieties Fardh4 & Khalass)
 * -- METHUSELAH (MATERNAL: Eastern PATERNAL: Eastern): (DNA similar to assigned to current Arabian Gulf varieties FARD d and Fardh4)


 * -- 6/7 Have an Eastern Maternal ancestry. The deviant is Jonah.
 * -- 4/5 of the male plants have Western paternal ancestry. The deviant is Methuselah.


 * -- Source: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aax0384

Lunchtime-Lucas (talk) 10:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Useless article unless clarified: what variety would a resulting date palm & fruit be, in the end?
The topic keeps on being discussed, and nobody put it to rest, see above:
 * Not a species:
 * Seedling might not be a real Judean date palm?
 * update?
 * Gibberish to me (I don't understand)

Now the article says that "By 2015 Methuselah had produced pollen that has been used successfully to pollinate female date palms. Additional Judean date palm seeds have been grown. Several are female, so it is hoped that it will soon be possible to pollinate a female Judean date palm with the pollen of a male of the same variety."

Without being a specialist, I am highly skeptical about this claim. If the pollinated female palms were of a different species, as they must have been, how come the resulting "babies" are clean "Judean date palms"? The mother plant contributed no DNA whatsoever? This added to the better questions from previous editors here: the specific variety of a date fruit seems to depend on offshoots, not seeds. From this I understand that the variety of the fruit is the result of grafting, not sprouting and planting of seeds, which "don't produce the same [variety] as the parent tree". Correct?

'''This article, for now, only correctly deals with the amazing sprouting of a 2000 years old seed. All the other talk about it being the same as the ancient cultivar, with a special symbolism etc., is hot air. Useless.'''

Additional question: it seems that the botanists are trying to get more seeds from the Masada batch to sprout. If there is a successful attempt that leads to a female palm tree, if the flowers of an original female plant is pollinated with an also original male plant flower, would the resulting fruit be identical to the ancient variety?

Who picks up the challenge? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

This source says that "Some palms produce new shoots from near the base of the trunk that can root to become new plants. In the case of date palms, where many named cultivars exist that are valued for the quality of their fruit, this is the only way to faithfully reproduce each variety." It seems that there is no chance of ever getting the exact fruit Herod or the Masada rebels were eating, other than by chance and after further working on improving the result of a pollination by Methuselah of a possible future female "sister" of his. Arminden (talk) 12:04, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Arminden, The way that section was written is slightly ambiguous. What was meant to be said, by whoever wrote it, was that: 1) Methuselah's pollen was successfully used to pollinate a wild modern female palm; 2) some other ancient Judean Date Palm seeds have been successfully germinated (similar to how Methuselah was), and some of these are females. The females in the second point are not connected with the females in the first point (they aren't the "babies"), but rather were ancient seeds like Methuselah. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 14:09, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

al-Shimoni, hi. If you know all this as a fact, please just go ahead and put it into the article. If you have sources, it's perfect; if not, somebody will fill them in eventually. You'd be doing a great favour to all those interested. Thanks! Arminden (talk) 16:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)