Talk:Judo/Archive 2

Cleanup on Pics
New to this whole editing stuff so take what I have to say with a grain of salt and a lot of understanding. Thanks. But, yeah, I noticed this: The pictures are not properly aligned with text. We have a takedown in the randori section (instead of the tachiwaza section) we have a "Traditional Style Bow In" picture where it talks about the Founding of Judo and a lot are just very randomly placed. Can we please put things in proper sections?World War Cheese 04:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Technique over formal exercise
"Fukuda Hachinosuke is said to have emphasized technique over formal exercise, sowing the seeds of Kano's emphasis of or free practice (randori) in judo."

What does this mean? What's the difference between technique and formal exercise? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.40.10.253 (talk) 01:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I assume "formal exercise" refers to kata. If anyone knows this to be true, maybe you can make it explicit in the article. Spoxjox 16:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Choke" vs "Strangulation"
I have seen this differentiation used a lot on the internet, particularly among BJJ enthusiasts. I use the distinction myself in private conversation. However, I have found no evidence that this differentiation is either widely used outside of BJJ internet discussions or even used at all in judo. If someone cares to cite a reliable source establishing this difference, that would be great. Otherwise, I think there should be no formal differentiation between the terms. Such arbitrary private definitions ought not to be used as standard terminology in an encyclopedia article. Spoxjox 18:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Please read Choking and Strangling. Do you see my point? --Nate1481 09:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course. I contributed to those articles. But you seem to be missing *my* point, which is that the judo curriculum and literature make no such distinction. To enforce a technical distinction here is meaningless. It's as if I edited an article on labor to make all of the instances of "work" match the physics definition of "force x distance". Doesn't make sense, right? And neither does enforcing the artificial distinction between choking and strangulation in a judo article.
 * Unless, as I said before, you can cite such usage in judo literature. If that's the case, cite your source and go to it. Until then, I revert the artificial distinction. This is an article on judo, not medical physiology. Spoxjox 18:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no experience of if the differentiation is widely made by judoka, as I am not one myself. If, however, there is a reasonable distinction that can be made and it is not 'an arbitrary private' one but a commonly excepted fact by those who have looked into it, would it not be fair to include the fact & note, as in the MMA article, that such a distinction is not in common usage. Dose this seem like a reasonable compromise? --Nate1481 09:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This works for me. Spoxjox 21:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Judo for self-defense
"Extensive anecdotal evidence demonstrates that Judo techniques are often effective in self-defense situations."

I did not write this sentence, but I did edit it to read as it now does. Nate inserted a citation request. My question is: How does one cite a source for this? It's an unsubstantiated claim. By its nature, you can't really support it. That's why the evidence is anecdotal. I suppose we could provide a bunch of links to sites where people talk about how they threw an attacker with seio nage or something, but that hardly seems worthwhile.

The other possibility is that we take the sentence out altogether. This works fine for me, but there is the problem that judo really *does* work in many SD situations. How do we get that across without requiring a (probably non-existent) authoritative citation? Spoxjox 19:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Then anecdotal is fine, but saying extensive (as was added) implies some has looked for anecdotal evidence and found it is extensive. So a source that has collected anecdotes would be needed. --Nate1481 09:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Belt colors section
Hi, I think that the belt colors section was better with the tables in the beginning. With the tables as they stand now the article is illegible. With the tables right in the beginning of the section the text was much more readable. Perhaps we could change the size of the tables, remove borders, and some other layout to try to make it look better. Loudenvier 19:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have made another change, please see if you like it Loudenvier 20:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know what the right solution is to this. The way it was before, the formatting could get messed up and result in things not looking very good. The way it is now, the belt color descriptions are not beside the respective graphics. Personally, I thought it was better before. But neither solution seems ideal. Spoxjox 00:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's better but I think the section needs to be split off as a sub if you want details for different federations rather than an example. Also the Brazilian table has thrown off the rest of the article placed there. Noting different belt colours are used should be enough, for the main article if there is no unified system. --Nate 10:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think a separate article on belt colors would be notable. And I like a lot the tables and belts, they look good. We need to find a better way to depict them in the article. Loudenvier 13:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Prob not, looks better now but the article is in danger of being too long. --Nate 13:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, I like what you two have been doing. I think the article looks better. I agree that the belt section is too long, but it's better organized now. Spoxjox 16:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, the article says that "Brazilian belt rankings are somewhat different, using white, blue, yellow, orange, green, purple, brown and black. A gray belt is sometimes given to very young judoka (under 11 or 13 years old) just before the blue. This is also consistent with the belt colors from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu." This is NOT consistent with BJJ: BJJ almost always uses White, Blue, Purple, Brown, and Black. Am I incorrect? Monkus2k 03:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're (more or less) incorrect. :-) BJJers under 13 or 15 usually goes through yellow, orange and green belt colors. But you're correct that adults in BJJ will skip yellow, orange and green belts going directly to purple. But there is some overlap since BJJ belt rank here in Brazil was adapted from brazillian Judo belt ranking. Loudenvier 16:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the Brazilian (and European) belt colors should be changed to show the name of the kyu level beside the belt, rather than the color. Having the belt color listed with a picture of the colored belt in the next column is redundant. If the color needs to be typed out, it can be done beneath the graphic, as in the US belt table. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.107.0.73 (talk) 01:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

That table took Spoxjox & I a little while to do, I agree, but will have to do it when I have more time --Nate 11:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Other Meanings
JUDO is a programming language. 24.6.221.189 00:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Added new article and otheruses4 tag. Spoxjox 20:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

FILA citing
I think the following to be really detrimental in the lead:
 * According to the International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA), judo is one of the four main forms of amateur competitive wrestling practiced internationally today (the other three being Greco-Roman wrestling, Freestyle wrestling and Sambo).

FILA has no authority in Judo and it's best to keep this out of the lead. This should be mentioned elsewhere. FILA has a vested interest in promoting those assertions to encompass more fighting styles under its wing. Also it's interesting to see that while Sambo is considered one of the four main forms of amateur competitive wrestling, BJJ is ignored. What do you think? Loudenvier 13:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, deserves a mention but not in the 1st section --Nate 13:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

12 dan redux
This was discussed before, with someone asking where the idea came from. I believe that the USJA documentation talks about Jigoro Kano being the only 12th dan. Fwiw -- I don't have a dog in the fight. Spoxjox 16:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Where's the "good article" denial feedback?
I see "Judo" was nominated as a "good article" but denied. Anyone have the feedback for that? Spoxjox 16:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's in the archive --Nate 17:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

repeated info
Removed info that was listed as well as in table, doubling up was unnecessary and if one gets changed & not the other could confuse things.

test version
The United States Judo Federation (USJF) and The United States Judo Association (USJA) both have four kyu belt colors for Seniors both are listen in the table.

The USJA also mandates wearing a patch specifying the practitioner's level, for both kyu and dan levels.

The USJF Juniors rank system defines ranks to Juichikyu, or 11th kyu. The belt colors associated with these kyus are in the table above.

The USJA Juniors rank system defines twelve levels of kyu rank, beginning with "Junior 1st Degree" and ending with "Junior 12th Degree". The belt colors associated with these kyus are in the table.

As with the Senior practitioners, the USJA mandates that Juniors wear a patch specifying their rank.

Individual clubs may follow one of these patterns, or may modify them or use another pattern altogether to suit individual tastes.


 * This looks okay to me. Let me give it a shot and tell me what you think. Spoxjox 17:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm away for a bit but will have a look on Monday --Nate 17:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Change made...and made again...and again...and again... Spoxjox18:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup idea -- get rid of Jigoro Kano stuff
Clearly, this article needs a lot of cleanup. I think a good start would be to make minimal reference to Kano, letting the Jigoro Kano article answer for the biographical info. Discussion? 131.107.0.73 18:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Blue gi
There is a citation needed tag concern the reproval of traditionalists to the blue jugogi. That's not my opinion but I know that traditionalists did indeed look down to the blue judogi. Whenever I came to a new judo club I first ask a senior student if the sensei has anything against the blud judogi before using one. This is in my opinion enough to back up the assertion but it fails miserably when it comes to verifiability on external reliable sources, after all I'm not reliable (at least to wikipedia :-). It would be nice to find a reliable source to back it up! Any help will be appreciated. Regards Loudenvier 18:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * A link to consider: http://www.oishi-judo.com/BLUE%20JUDOGI.htm

Breakfalls- sport & beyond
In addition, while throws executed with proper break falls on soft mats can seem light and graceful, their more practical application on a hard surface (and potentially with greater intent to harm) could be very dangerous. Read this in the article it seems to imply that break falls are more dangers than just falling on a hard surface. I'd question is this & some the surrounding text should be there, having had experience to the contrary.--Nate 16:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't read it like that. The antecedent to "their" seems clearly to be "throws", not "breakfalls". 131.107.0.73 20:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

We need a separate section on scoring
Anyone up to the task? Spoxjox 17:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Where to learn in L.A. ? or a website for finding well respected locations to learn ? or world and national headquarters for various styles ?
Hello,

I'm looking for a place to practice in L.A. Where would I figure out how to find something? While I don't think the article or talk page should directly advertise specific locations to learn, I think it should be more helpful in directing someone who is interested in the right direction. Thanks. Tkjazzer 21:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)