Talk:Juggling world records

On changing major categories and removing stick juggling records
Please do not change major category titles (eg. "Clubs/Sticks" to "Clubs") without first discussing the reasons here in the talk page. In this case, simply removing the 9 stick flashes sets a problematic precedent, especially considering Willy Columbiano's recent flash with 9 "long, roughly cylindrical objects". Should his toy clubs be classed as clubs or sticks? First come up with a non-ambiguous and clear distinction between clubs and sticks, then discuss it here on the talk page. And even if a juggler used sticks and not clubs, the record should STILL be included on the page, under a different heading (like it already is) to add clarity, and should NOT be simply deleted without discussion. - Luke B. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.220.64.161 (talk) 10:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

On removing and adding record
Please read the top of the main article before removing or adding any record categories! This page is for 4 props only, with solo and two person juggling patterns only. Don`t go removing records just because you don't like them, or just because they aren't on the JISCON page. Don`t add new categories, if you know of a new record category that doesn`t already exist on this page, please add the record to the page of the juggler on wikipedia, or create another page such as "diabolo world records". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.199.30.165 (talk) 11:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing other records
JISCON does not consider records involving the bouncing of balls. These have been removed. If the bouncing ball records are included then I see no reason why the records for say, diabolo, devilstick, poi, cigar box should not be added also as they are defined as juggling as well. The bouncing balls record and the unverified claims records clutter up the page a lot. As an example one could claim an unverified record and add it. Unverified claims are not suitable for this page. This of course assumes that JISCON has the authority on juggling records. Icci (talk) 12:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The page was set up with the JISCON as ONE source among many. The JISCON does not track bouncing, and the fact that it doesn't was what lead to the creation of the bounce records page, and then this page to bring together records which are tracked by just one, both or neither.

Also, uverified claims DO have a place on this page, but they are kept seperate, as stated at the top of the page. This is not a case of clutteringup the page, it is a case of showing the limits of human juggling ability. Yes, anyone can claim any record they want, but the claims that stay on the page are typically by jugglers who hold other records already, so claims of one extra catch or prop are not just random claims by unknown irish jugglers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.199.30.165 (talk) 11:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Pirouette and other non-numbers juggling records
These have no place on this list as the 8 categories are clearly stated at the top of the main page. If a record that falls outside of these 8 categories is truly notable, please add it to the page of the juggler or create a new page about it. EG: Add Vova's pirouette record to Vova's page and Gatto's on Gatto's page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.177.170.45 (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed 19 ball passing record
I removed this record:
 * 19 balls for 10 passes caught by Dave Critchfield and John Jones in 2005 (video).

As stated at the top of the page: "Records begin where each object being juggled has been thrown and successfully caught at least once. Eg. 11 catches of 12 balls is not listed." Otherwise I'll put my 2 catches down as the new 20 ball juggling record.

No Brennan 14-ball Flash
Today in practice Richie Brennan was witnessed by several fellow jugglers flashing 14 beanbags
 * This Brennan 14-ball flash was a private joke that started a rumor and it did not occur. Jason Quinn (talk) 01:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No Haggis Records
Haggis records do not belong on this page. If haggis juggling records are included, where do we draw the line? Please keep it just to balls, clubs, rings and bouncing balls for solo and duo jugglers.

Burrage 12 catches of 12 balls
Removed the following from the article page:

The video of Luke Burrage getting 12 catches of 12 balls is FAKED, please stop adding his name to the list above (personal video).

This sort of information belongs on this disussion page - not the main article! --Colin E. 08:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, good call Colin.

Misc
I removed this entry " Best 3 ball routine by Ethan Obert in 2007" for obvious reasons Martinq22 21:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Have Albert Lucas personally ever confirmed that he has qualified 12 rings? Sounds unlikely to me.

My attempt to update the record for bounce juggling 10 balls was reverted by an automated bot that rejects youtube.com links. Of course, the record that I was updating already had a different youtube.com link as a video... Any suggestions for how to get this through? Thanar (talk) 00:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

References for unverified claims
I'm wondering there is a need to find reliable sources for unverified claims (i.e. an article containing a statement by the person saying, "I juggled X rings for Y catches in practice.").

In particular, I've seen conflicting interpretations of the claim that Sergei Ignatov qualified 11 rings (i.e. made 22 catches), which has periodically been added to (and removed from) the Unverified claims section for Solo Rings.

Some make the counter-claim that listeners misinterpreted "juggle" to mean "qualify":


 * Listeners misinterpreted "juggled 11 rings" to mean he had qualified 11 rings in performance. The 11-ring qualify came to be widely believed within the juggling community. Many years later in interviews, Ignatov clarified that he did not ever qualify 11 rings even in practice, and thereby the "record" was undone. (Needs citation) (http://www.jugglewiki.org/wiki/Juggling_Records)

Unfortunately, this counter-claim in the JuggleWiki has no citation, and I haven't found any interview of Ignatov where he explicitly affirms or denies qualifying 11 rings in practice.

After searching for reliable sources for or against the claim of 11 rings for 22 catches, here is what I have found:


 * References for the claim:


 * "Sergei Ignatov has performed 11 off and on, including a qualifying run followed by a pulldown! (_Juggler's World_ 34.2, Feb.? '82) The '22 throws' are mentioned in '4000 Years' (Vol.II, p.100)." (http://web.archive.org/web/20020214200304/http://www.juggling.com/records/rings-11.html) ['4000 Years' refers to 4000 Years of Juggling by Karl-Heinz Ziethen Published in 1981, M. Poignant (Sainte-Genevieve, France), http://books.google.com/books?id=R1mPAAAACAAJ&dq=4000+years+of+juggling&ei=OhSTSu3uLZy8yASK4LypBw]


 * "It also appears that Sergei Ignatov's record of 11 rings may stand for quite a while. In his act with the Moscow Circus, Ignatov made 22 throws with 11 rings and finished by pulling all of them sequentially over his head! He was said to think 13 rings was possible, but we may never see proof of that from him because of shoulder problems." (Bill Giduz, "Juggling Large Numbers," Juggler's World, Vol. 34, No .2, March 1982, p. 14, http://www.juggle.org/history/archives/jugmags/34-2/34-2,p14.htm)


 * Quotes from Sergei Ignatov himself for the 11 ring claim:


 * "In 1976 I was already juggling eleven rings in rehearsal and was able to finish by pulling them all down over my head." (Sergei Ignatov, "What's Most Important - Part II," Juggler's World, Vol 43, No. 1, Spring 1991, http://www.juggling.org/jw/91/1/ignatov.html)


 * "In June of 1978, in a performance at the Sochi circus, I juggled eleven rings. Depending on my form I continued to perform with eleven rings throughout that year in Sochi, Leningrad, Magnitogorsk and Dniepopetrovsk." (Sergei Ignatov, "What's Most Important", http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Culture/BluenoseJugglers/important.html)


 * "My best form was in 1978: I have a video from this when I caught eleven rings on the head. But this is more then 20 years ago, 25 years!" (An interview with Sergei Ignatov by Lisi Gräf and Roman Kellner, March 29, 2002, http://www.jugglingdb.com/compendium/world/jugglers/interviews/sergeiignatov.html)


 * The video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNTFcxfkJ68#t=4m0s may be the 11 ring pull-down finish to which Sergei refers. It is a flash (11 catches). There are several other 11 ring flashes during performances in this same video without pull-downs.


 * The video clip http://juggling.tv/2360 appears to me to be at least 26 catches of 11 with the last 11 being a pulldown. You can barely see the pattern (only shows up to head height) but he really seems to pulldown 11 at the end - should this result in the record being updated?  Drops in sente (talk) 14:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)Drops in Sente


 * Observers who claim he did more than a flash in rehearsals:


 * "In performance he was doing nine rings flawlessly. In rehearsal he showed me ten rings, which he did several times without any drops and finished by pulling them down over his head. I watched him throw eleven rings at the end of his rehearsal, my eyes bulging from my head. He dropped a couple after some 17 or 18 throws and apologized for not being sufficiently warmed up." (Christopher Majka, "When Sergei Ignatov Speaks, Jugglers Listen!" Juggler's World, Vol 40, No. 3, Fall 1988, p. 24, http://www.juggle.org/history/archives/jugmags/40-3/40-3,p24.htm)


 * "I saw Ignatov in the Moscow circus when it toured New York in the 1970's. He had 9 rings in his hands and 2 more in holsters. He did nine for a bit, grabbed the 2 from his holsters to transition into 11, and very quickly thereafter gathered all 11. Since this was a performance and not a practice, the premium was on not dropping, so he gathered quickly. I'm pretty sure that in the performance I saw he did not make 22 catches. I'm equally sure that if he had spent a few hours in a gym in front of a camera, not worrying about performance, he could have recorded more than 22 catches." (Arthur Lewbel, rec.juggling post, March 10, 1997, http://groups.google.com/group/rec.juggling/tree/browse_frm/month/1997-03/755630fe95e24ebe?rnum=141)


 * Summaries of the situation:


 * "OK, here's the straight dope on Ignatov's eleven rings. He never performed more than a flash. In practice he could get a qualifying run when he was at his prime, but it was never filmed." (Andrew Conway, "Fear and Loathing in Pittsburgh," Diary from the 1997 IJA Juggling Festival in Pittsburgh, Entry for August 4, 1997, http://www.juggling.org/~conway/juggler/pittsburgh.html#mon)


 * Responding to 'Did someone find proof that Ignatov did juggle 11?' "I also sat down to talk with Karl-Heinz about this. He has no personal knowledge of either of these records being accomplished. He only knows that Bobby May 'said' that he had seen Ignatov do this in performance in New York City. I've seen experienced numbers judges mis-count at that high level of props. Also, since there was no debate at that time, or high concentration of attention (as there is today), I doubt that Bobby would have been sitting there actually struggling to count catches instead of just experiencing the spectacle. And what definition of 'juggle' would Bobby have been using? At that time, and in Bobby's mind, a 'flash' or just getting a few more than a flash, *may* have been considered 'juggling' that number. Maybe Sergei only got 19 catches, who knows?" (Steven Salberg, 4 Oct 1996, http://www.jugglingdb.com/news/rightpane.php?group=1&id=30857)

Thanar (talk) 05:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Solo force bounce-8 bounce balls for 208 catches
His last ball hit the floor twice in the video, so he has failed. --Dozor6 (talk) 09:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for "catching" this. I've corrected the number of catches to 205, based only on the catches that I could see being thrown and caught. It's an odd number because of the drop with his right hand at the end. Thanar (talk) 05:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Official world records
Which of these are official world records? Who maintains official world records for juggling? Guinness World Records? Mglovesfun (talk) 22:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are several bodies that maintain official world records for juggling: Juggling Information Service Committee on Numbers Juggling (JISCON), Guinness World Records, and The Bounce Page. You can examine what subsets of juggling they cover by examining their websites in references 1-6 of the article. Any record in the article which has a reference to one of those organizations would be considered an official world record. Thanar (talk) 19:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

All bodies which assess world records are only 'official' because of the criteria they use to assess any specific record. No one organisation should be relied on to give the 'official' world record. The criterion that is essential is 'verifiability'. For juggling world records this should be video or film evidence. Records prior to video or film or without such evidence have to be seen to be unverified (although they may have other evidence that makes them as reliable as can be expected). Any organisation can make mistakes or not be up to the minute with records having been broken, or simple not record such records. Robynthehode (talk) 11:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Links and references and definitions
Firstly reference above '5 balls'. It is completely logical to include 5 and 6 ball records (if verifiable). How long they are is not relevant.

Secondly as part of my long term plan to make all juggling related pages link up, share the same information (if relevant to the specific article), and to reference articles properly I will be editing all juggling pages. Please do not revert my edits without discussion here first. Robynthehode (talk) 11:28, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Exact measures of world records
I checked the world records with my video editing software and measured on thousandth of a second. Here are the relevant results, which differ from the information in the main article:

7 Ball record (Gatto): 11:38.042 min

9 Ball record (Gatto): 0:55.522 min

It seems like JISCON didn't measure very exact. Also, the Ferman record should be 27 catches (check the video and count, if you don't believe it. A lot of people state it in the comments anyway).

Cheers, --Dahadah (talk) 21:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I need to apologize. I realised that if you measure from first throw to last catch before a drop occurs, the stated times are correct. I measured the time from first throw to first drop (=prop hits the ground), which made on first sight more sense to me.


 * I'm going to re-edit the article. Sorry for the confusion! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahadah (talk • contribs) 04:02, 24 April 2013

Flash vs qualifying juggle
Removed from the page: "This is often called a 'flash' and some people do not regard this as juggling. Juggling is usually accepted as being where an object has been thrown and caught at least twice. For example juggling 7 objects is therefore only juggling when the throw and catch count exceeds 14."

The "some people" and "usually accepted" are weasel words, and add nothing to the assertion. The facts of the matter are that the entire "flash isn't juggling" is a misapplication of a very specific set of rules for a single numbers juggling competition to the wider world of juggling in general. It comes from this part of the rules:

"Definition of a (Successful) Qualifying Run. To successfully qualify a given number of objects, an entrant (solo or team) must keep the pattern going without a drop long enough for each hand to make as many catches as there are objects being juggled. For instance, in solo juggling of eight balls, each hand must make eight catches before there is a drop; and in two-person passing of ten clubs, each hand must make ten catches before there is a drop." http://www.juggle.org/pastfestivals/2008/NumbersRules20080314.php

The only thing this "qualifies" is that then the juggler can compete at the next number of props. The above example means the juggler can now attempt to juggle nine balls. That "some people" then don't consider anything under this standard as "real juggling" (or whatever the claim is) is irrelevant to the records in question listed on this page. Also nobody who holds to this standard has ever said what kind of a trick 15 catches of eight balls is if it *isn't* a juggling trick. If it isn't juggling, what is it? And if it isn't juggling, should records under 2n catches be listed on a separate page than the records 2n and above? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.220.118.51 (talk) 09:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Bouncing records
Am I the only one who would like to see the best bouncing feats with the restriction that the bouncing surface must be the same floor where the juggler is standing on? At least as a separate category! Vittorio Mariani (talk) 15:43, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You would need to provide a source that this is a notable record for this inclusion whether as a replacement or added section Robynthehode (talk) 15:54, 17 November 2017 (UTC)