Talk:Julia Gardiner Tyler/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Alanna the Brave (talk · contribs) 22:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello! I'm going to tackle the review for this article, and will aim to have comments ready for you by Sunday. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Alrighty -- I still have to spot-check sources and look for any copy-vio issues (will do that over the next few days), but I've assessed other aspects of the article. Images and licensing look good. Article seems stable and stays focused. Despite an article subject with contentious aspects to her life (e.g., defense of slavery), coverage seems satisfactorily neutral. Most of the prose reads great. I have some comments and suggestions below:
 * Lead section
 * Use Template:Nee before Tyler's maiden name, as per MOS.
 * "she agreed to marry him after he comforted her during her father's death" --> maybe change to "in the aftermath of her father's death" for clarity?
 * Is it accurate to say she had "little money" in her final years? It sounds like she had a healthy pension after 1881.
 * In infobox: add apostrophe to Gardiners Island.
 * Early life
 * Remove "Tyler" from first mention of Julia's name at birth (too early!).
 * Why did Gardiner request more time in Washington after her first meeting with the president? Current progression of paragraph implies it was connected with their meeting, but he was still married at the time, if I understand correctly.
 * "while she grieved... even Gardiner acknowledged that the president had become a surrogate father." --> I don't know if it's just me, but having this sentence placed in connection with Gardiner finally accepting the president's marriage proposal feels a bit weird. Is his fatherly role why she married him? Why did she refuse him repeatedly on his earlier proposals?
 * It is weird, but these sorts of things seem to be common for biographies I write from the time period. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "the marriage made Gardiner the first first lady..." --> awkward to have two "firsts". Rephrase?
 * "5 years later" should be "five years later"
 * First lady of the U.S.
 * Who was 'Babe the pirate'??
 * I added context that it was a convict. Googling the name for further info did not help. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * How was dancing in public considered "scandalous" at the time? I would have thought it was normal to dance in public -- unless rich people didn't do that?
 * The source says that Puritans didn't want genders to intermingle and that dancing encouraged that, so I've added a mention of Puritanism as the reason. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "where she danced with several important guests" --> Seems superfluous -- can probably cut.
 * Post-presidency
 * Is there any info expanding on the Tyler family's Civil War views? Why did they first support preservation of the union, but then choose Confederate? It seems a little curious that Julia embraced this side so completely, considering her Union-aligned siblings.
 * The sources say that she considered herself a Southerner after moving to Virginia, and I've added some context to establish that. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Where was the Confederate House of Representatives? Virginia?
 * Why was Tyler worrying about her husband's health? Had he been ill in the years leading up to his death?
 * Better. She had a bad dream about it. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hah! -A.
 * When did Tyler's mother die? Was her relationship with Tyler strained? Currently the info about the contested will seems to come out of nowhere (we know Julia and David fought, but what about other family?).
 * Why did Tyler & daughter convert to Roman Catholicism? What was her prior religious status?
 * "forcing her to move back to Sherwood..." --> I was under the impression the plantation was taken away and given to the former slaves (or turned into a school). How did she still have possession of the property?
 * Instead of listing the full book title and page number of the pensioner's list in the main text here, I would suggest moving that info into the ref/citation information and simply noting that Tyler's pension details are listed in "a list of pensioners in 1883" (or something similar).
 * Legacy
 * Is it relevant to note that the papers of the Tyler family had not been much used in analysis as of 2016? I'm also wondering if this is still true in 2023.
 * "credited with restoring the Washington social world" --> is there a clearer way of saying this?
 * Why is she considered one of the most successful hostesses? Was she skilled in some way, or just busy/prolific?
 * Is there any particular reason she's consistently ranked in the lower half of lists of first ladies?
 * It doesn't say, though I can take a guess. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fair. -A.
 * Miscellaneous
 * The first external link (Tyler Courtship & Wedding) currently redirects to an essay-writing service website.
 * Categories: Is it accurate to include "Converts to Roman Catholicism from Calvinism"? Calvinism is not mentioned in the main text.
 * While not strictly required for this review, all article images would benefit from alt text.
 * I'll finish up with any additional comments re: sourcing as soon as possible. Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 00:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe I've addressed about everything to this point. I've added notes above for exceptions or to clarify. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * All right -- here we go! I've spot-checked sources and citations, and have listed some issues below. Once these have been responded to, I'll do a final check of the article.
 * Text to citation accuracy issues:
 * "In 1839, she shocked polite society by appearing in a newspaper advertisement for a middle-class department store, posed with an unidentified man and identified as 'The Rose of Long Island'." --> Cited source says it was 1840, and the ad appeared in a handbill rather than a newspaper.
 * "She first met Tyler on January 20, 1842, when she was 21 years old, being introduced to him at a White House reception." --> Source doesn't specify the month or day when they met.
 * "Gardiner was devastated by the death of her father; she spoke often in later years of how the president's quiet strength sustained her during this difficult time. Tyler comforted Gardiner in her grief and won her consent to a secret engagement, proposing in 1844 at the George Washington Ball." --> Source doesn't include nearly this much detail (George Washington Ball? President's quiet strength?).
 * "where the nuptials were performed by Benjamin Treadwell Onderdonk at the Church of the Ascension, not too far from the Gardiner's residence on LaGrange Terrace." --> Cited source makes no mention of who performed the nuptials.
 * "President Tyler was 54 years old, while Gardiner was 24." --> Cited source doesn't state president's age.
 * "The news was then broken to the American people, who greeted it with keen interest, much publicity, and some criticism about the couple's 30-year difference in age." --> Overly close paraphrasing (should be rephrased).
 * "After a wedding trip to Philadelphia, a White House reception, and a stay at Sherwood Forest, an estate the president had recently acquired for his retirement, the newlyweds returned to Washington D.C." --> These details are not supported by the source.
 * "Although her husband was often visibly fatigued, his youthful wife thoroughly enjoyed the duties of first lady." --> Source doesn't mention husband is fatigued.
 * "The day after the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln, three men broke into her home demanding that she turn over her Confederate flag, searching for it and seizing it after she denied having one." --> Source seems unclear around whether the thing they seized was actually a Confederate flag.
 * "She accused her brother of orchestrating the attack." --> Cited source suggests she suspected him, rather than outright accused.
 * "In 1865, Tyler's brother David sued to prevent her from inheriting the bulk of their mother's estate valued at $180,000, charging that she had exerted "undue influences" on their mother to execute a will despite her "mental incapacity". --> Value of estate and quote "mental incapacity" is not supported by the source.
 * "Her husband had died of a stroke 27 years earlier in the same hotel. She was buried next to him at Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond." --> Source doesn't mention hotel or name of cemetery.
 * Broken links & other issues:
 * Source 4 (Julia Tyler Biography: National First Ladies' Library) --> broken link
 * Source 17 (Raja Sharma) is published by Lulu.com, and is likely not considered a reliable source here unless Sharma is a subject matter expert.
 * Source 24 (First Ladies CSPAN) -- This link currently leads only to Anna Harrison content, and should be replaced with the Julia Tyler content. Since it isn't supporting any main text, I also think it should be moved to the External links section (and removed from the random side-box under "later life and death").
 * Source 26 (Catholacism) --> How certain are you about this source's reliability? The article doesn't list its own sources and doesn't feel entirely neutral, and it's not clear to me that the author is a subject matter expert or has editorial oversight.
 * Sources 29 & 31 seem to be duplicates, but only 29 is freely accessible.
 * Source 36 seems to have the bare file name & extension as the source title (should be fixed)
 * Thanks, Alanna the Brave (talk) 22:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I've addressed all of the sourcing issues you've listed, and I'll likely go through the article again some time in the next few days with particular scrutiny toward sources that were there before I found the article. These were the bulk of the sourcing issues, and I'm probably going to be less inclined to preserve them when rewriting articles going forward. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 03:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good -- I'll check back again soon. There are a few old NY Times articles last retrieved in 2017 that I haven't been able to spot check myself, and it would be great if you can find a way to access them. It's always worth double-checking sources added by prior editors (oftentimes they're of mixed quality!). Thanks, Alanna the Brave (talk) 17:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and removed or replaced several primary sources and any sources that I couldn't verify. I'm happy with the state of its sourcing now. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 16:00, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and removed or replaced several primary sources and any sources that I couldn't verify. I'm happy with the state of its sourcing now. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 16:00, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Great work -- I've just gone through my list of previous comments, and it looks like you've addressed pretty much everything. Remaining sources look solid. I've added alt text and a handful of copy edits. I have just six more queries, and I think that'll be it:
 * Is the family island named "Gardiners Island" or "Gardiner's Island"? I'm seeing both spellings here (and both spellings in the island's Wikipedia page, too).
 * The specific source cited for that bit uses the apostrophe, so I've set it consistent with that. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Lead: "She spent her final years in Richmond, Virginia, where she lived in poor health with little money, prompting Congress to enact a pension for widowed first ladies." --> Not the right order of events, according to the main text. Congress enacted a pension for first ladies in 1881, and then Tyler moved to Virginia and struggled with malaria, correct?
 * Rewrote this part. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there any higher-quality version of the 1840 Rose of Long Island advertisement? I'm looking at it again, and it seems rather pixelated -- not sure if that's just me.
 * It is a little pixelated, but I don't know where to find a higher quality copy. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay -- no worries. Maybe someone else can help with that if you decide to pursue FA status for the article. -A.

Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Initially, the high-spirited and independent-minded northern beauty felt little attraction to the grave, reserved Virginia gentleman..." --> This description feels a bit subjective/romanticized, and isn't clearly supported by the source.
 * No idea why that's there. I've trimmed this. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's worth shifting John Tyler's cause of death (stroke) to the first mention of his death, instead of leaving it unknown until Julia's demise.
 * Done. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Was it coincidence that Tyler died in the same hotel as her husband?
 * I've reworded this to hopefully make it read better. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've replied to each comment. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 04:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * All looks good -- I'm now satisfied that the article meets GA criteria. Cheers, Alanna the Brave (talk) 12:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)