Talk:Julian Byng, 1st Viscount Byng of Vimy

Relations
In any way related to Admiral John Byng - the one who was shot for following the rules and not winning the battle ? --185.17.205.109 (talk) 13:35, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, is he? 2A00:23C5:E0A0:8300:11B6:4CA8:765F:7754 (talk) 12:33, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Copyright violations in this article/ Credit of source?
Much of the wording of this article -- although not all -- appears to be very, very close to the official bio of Byng on the Canadian GG's website: http://www.gg.ca/gg/fgg/bios/01/byng_e.asp

The GG's website does have a policy allowing Non-commercial Reproduction (see http://www.gg.ca/in-ai/index_e.asp#1) but they ask that "The Office of the Secretary to the Governor General be identified as the source department..."

Should the Byng article include a credit and/or link to Byng's page on the GG site? Cheers, Madmagic 13:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The article has since been extensively expanded and no longer bears much resemblence to Canada's Governor-General site. Dormskirk (talk) 18:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Pronounciation?
Just a quick question - how would you pronounce the name Byng? "Bing"? I'm asking because there's a pronounciation key in Arthur Meighen's page, and I'm simply curious. 99.245.2.237 (talk) 01:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It is pronounced "bing". Dormskirk (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Honours
One third of this article is about various honours received by Lord Byng of Vimy. Perhaps this section should be shortened. Tryde (talk) 08:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have removed some unsourced trivial items. Dormskirk (talk) 22:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I restored the eponyms. Such a section is present on all articles on Canadian governors general. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  14:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fine as long as the article does not fail its assessment because of this: it should be OK as I have now fully referenced the eponyms. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Medals
The medal listing under the Honours section has some serious issues. The list itself is completely unreferenced, using the justification "Apparent from the campaigns in which he served". Aside from violating the basic principles of WP:OR and WP:RS, Byng's actual medals contained in the Canadian Museum of Civilization's catalogue show that several of those recorded in this article are false claims, while a number he did receive are not present. Either the section should go, or it requires reliable references not dependent on erroneous original research. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I support removal of the medals. The normal approach is only to give membership of orders (ensuring each one is supported by a cite from the London Gazette) not medals. Dormskirk (talk) 22:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've restored the status quo. The normal approach is not to "give" only memberships in orders; see the pages on every other Canadian governor general. A source for Byng's medals has already been provided right up above. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  02:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Standard practice is to mention the major/notable decorations in the prose and infobox, not list them seperately at the end. As such, I also support the removal (if someone were to take a photo of Byng's medals, though, I'd certainly support such an addition). Miesianiacal, it is not really the "normal approach" if you were the one to add such sections to the Canadian governer general pages in the first place. In saying that, on having a look at the other pages, I can see the same issue is not just unique to this page. In the cases I saw, not a single medals listing was appropriately referenced in any Canadian governor general article and several also contained false claims, just as this article does. The Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, for instance, is recorded in both this article and that for Harold Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Tunis, despite the fact that the medal was only open to enlisted ranks, not officers. Such errors reflect poorly on Wikipedia. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It is indeed the "normal approach" when the articles on Canadian governors general have been as they are for years and a number of editors have added and taken away from them (hence, don't hold me responsible for every byte of information). Also, regard the articles on members of the Royal Family; you'll see medals listed in each.
 * If anything's listed that can't be verified, then remove it. But, remember, that doesn't mean every medal and decoration listed without a reference is unverifiable. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  06:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to offend, Miesianiacal, and apologise if it came off that way. My point is, this is not the standard for military biographical articles, particularly when large chunks of the page are taken up by lists that include unreferenced and erroneous material. Again, the standard is to incorporate significant honours and awards into the prose of the article. If the medal is verifiable, then it should be referenced to a reliable source per policy, not simply inserted into an article on an editor's belief. As can be seen in the source I provided above, Byng did not receive several of the medals mentioned in this article (four by my count). Similar issues exist in Harold Alexander, 1st Earl Alexander of Tunis, and possibly multiple others. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 07:32, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have improved the section to reflect the reference previously provided. BTW, the first medal in that list should be a dead giveaway that it is a bit off (Long Service and Good Conduct Medal), as I find no record of Byng serving in the ranks for the requisite number of years.  I have updated accordingly adding the missing Egypt medal and I added the bars to his campaign medals, feel free to remove those if they do not follow convention.  I also removed the GV Silver Jubilee Medal since it was not in the ref and Byng may have died before receipt of the medal.  Cheers.  EricSerge (talk) 16:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe you that some of the medals are inaccurate. I simply don't see why the whole section should be deleted because a few entires in it are known to be wrong. Just correct the incorret ones. And it's not unusual to have such a section in a biographical article; at least in certain contexts. Here, it seems, if I'm getting you, two different contexts are overlapping--military biographies and viceroyal biographies. I'm uncertain of what to do about that, but I think it would be more odd for a reader going through a series of articles to find some lacking a section that's present in other articles than to find some with a section that isn't present in others. Also, it's unclear why some honours--membership in orders--would be presented differently to others--medals and decorations-- and the separate section makes such information easier to glean, rather than having to dig through blocks of prose to find which medals and decorations an individual received (and some received many). -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  03:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 15 March 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 15:07, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Julian Byng, 1st Viscount Byng of Vimy → Julian Byng – Per WP:NCPEER and WP:COMMONNAME – The Traditionalist (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:28, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose Byng is quite notable for his post ennoblement career, most obviously as Governor General of Canada. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Seeing that he was made a Viscount after completing his term as Governor General of Canada, I cannot understand why you would oppose a move on these grounds.--The Traditionalist (talk) 21:50, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I suppose that, following your rationale, the ideal move would be changing "Viscount" to "Baron".--The Traditionalist (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)


 * No because the title is similar enough. Anyhow as this move is contested this is no longer the place to discuss it. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:28, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Where "this" means "Requested moves/Technical requests", where this discussion was moved from. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:30, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * “Similar enough” does not have any standing. Viscount Byng of Vimy and Baron Byng of Vimy are two different titles. You have opposed moving the page to Julian Byng, but your arguments suggest that you, too, believe that the current heading is not perfect.--The Traditionalist (talk) 11:18, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I agree with Timrollpickering. For all ranks below duke, the holders are known simply as "Lord [title]". When the name of someone's title has changed, and they are much better known by the lower title, it makes sense to put them at the lower title for the sake of recognition. (For example, we have the man who ended up as 1st Earl of Ripon at F. J. Robinson, 1st Viscount Goderich, because he's known to history as "Lord Goderich", not "Lord Ripon".) But when the names of the lower and higher titles are the same, it's far simpler just to use the highest rather than to work out which particular rank someone is best known by. (For example, a lot of the Viceroys of India were promoted after their terms of office and so served under lower titles - Rufus Isaacs, 1st Marquess of Reading as Earl of Reading, Freeman Freeman-Thomas, 1st Marquess of Willingdon as Earl of Willingdon, Frederic Thesiger, 1st Viscount Chelmsford as Baron Chelmsford, etc. But as they are generally just known as "Lord Reading", "Lord Willingdon", "Lord Chelmsford", etc., it's a pretty fruitless task to try to work out at which rank they are best known.) We also need to take into account the fact that whilst at the time these people held various positions they may have been known by lower titles, history has a habit of applying someone's final title throughout their life. (For example, Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington is often referred to as "the Duke of Wellington" even with reference to events that happened before he had that title, or even before he was first ennobled, and of course Alfred, Lord Tennyson is known as such despite being ennobled after most of his work had been written. Indeed, Frederic Leighton is often known as "Lord Leighton" despite holding that peerage for only a day!) Proteus (Talk) 12:55, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Often known as Lord Byng and therefore quite acceptable to retain the article at the highest title he held. No conflict with WP:NCPEER or WP:COMMONNAME here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm not myself very aware how he was and is best known, but I did Google search (with exact phrase) and Lord Byng gave 110 000 results, Julian Byng only 17 900. --Editor FIN (talk) 06:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments. Seeing the overwhelming opposition to my proposal, I beg leave to withdraw it.--The Traditionalist (talk) 12:20, 22 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Support: common, short name, primary topic. No need for title.--Z oupan 18:15, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Conflicts with WP:NCPEER. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:07, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don't see at all how "Julian Byng" is how he's commonly known. "Lord Byng", maybe. But, not "Julian Byng". -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  14:09, 23 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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