Talk:Julie Payne

Confusion between two Julie Paynes?
This article seems to conflate two different actresses named Julie Payne: Unfortunately, IMDB seems to have corrupted data as well: it claims both of these were married to Robert Towne. This really needs to be sorted out, preferably from more WP:Reliable sources than IMDB and random websites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hqb (talk • contribs) 20:53, 4 October 2007
 * I agree, this has confused me as well. All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 12:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

A third Julie Payne?
As if the confusion between Julie Ann[e] Payne and Julie K[athleen] Payne wasn't enough, there seems to be a third actress of that name, born in 1946 or 1947. This Julie Payne was born in Sweet Home, Oregon, graduated from South Eugene High School in 1964, and was a member of improv group The Committee, as detailed in this 1976 article and interview with her in the Eugene Register-Guard. The article goes on to note that she had TV roles in The Bob Newhart Show; Love, American Style; and The Streets of San Francisco, all of which IMDB ascribes to the Julie Payne from Terre Haute, IN. It also mentions Oregon Julie's radio commercials for McDonalds and [F]otomat in the 1970s.

Now, to make the confusion complete, this bio page from what appears to be a talent agency representing her, says very clearly that the Julie Payne who was a member of The Committee and did commercials for McDonalds and Fotomat in the 70s is also the one who had significant roles in Garfield, Laverne & Shirley, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and others, right up to the 2000s. What's going on here? If those two Julie Paynes are in fact the same person, do we actually have a rock solid source (IMDB obviously doesn't count) saying that Julie K[athleen] Payne was born 1940 in Terre Haute? Hqb (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Two points here. The photo alongside the "talent agency" article definitely shows the woman who played Dr. Johnny Fever's former live-in suing him for palimony in an episode of WKRP in Cincinnati, which IMDb attributes to the Indiana J.P. (whose year of birth they give as 1940, not 1946 as the top posting on this page incorrectly claims). The Oregon newspaper article has a box on the right hand side of the page on top of part of the article. I can't get rid of it, I can't scroll the article at all (the only scroll bar present works that box), and consequently I can read very little of the article. I was hoping to find a mention of her middle name (or at least initial). Does it show that way for you? Given the statements you say it makes attributing certain work to her, which I cannot see at all, I guess not, so what gives? --Tbrittreid (talk) 19:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The top posting on this page (mine) says 1946, because that's what IMDB said at the time; it has since been changed. (I hesitate to say "corrected".) As for scrolling through the newspaper article, I don't think you're supposed to use the scroll bar at all; you can just click-and-drag on the image itself, much like in Google Maps. (At least that's the way it works for me in Firefox on Linux, so anything more mainstream than that should also work.) But in any case, the article makes no mention whatsoever of a middle name or initial for Oregon Julie. Hqb (talk) 20:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * WOW! I didn't know it was possible to access past versions of IMDb pages. And, yeah, I see. Also, the article does indeed work as you indicated, thanks for that. Except for that one "K" credit in 1991, it looks like its just a matter of determining whether Oregon Julie was born in '46 or '40 (although there is the question of where the hell "Terre Haute, IN" came from). --Tbrittreid (talk) 21:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Related discussion (conducted in December 2009) transferred from User talk:Roman Spinner
In "moving" (a totally inappropriate word, but we seem to be stuck with it) the articles on the two actresses known as Julie Payne to bear the parenthetical qualifiers "1960s actress" and "post-1960s actress" respectively, you wrote in your edit summary, "neither performer used a middle name and/or initial as part of her stage name." As was previously discussed here, somebody was credited as "Julie K. Payne" in a 1991 episode of the Chris Elliott/Fox network sitcom, Get a Life. With that date we can be reasonably certain that she isn't the daughter of John Payne and Anne Shirley (who has, IIRC, has at least as many credits in the 50s as in the 60s), but since we have three different sets of birth dates/places (Terre Haute, IN, September 11, 1940; L.A., CA, July 10, 1940; and Eugene, OR, September 11, 1946), this might be, as theorized in that thread, a third woman. Why would the Oregon JP use an initial that long after the second gen. thespian quit the business, and only once? One might speculate that we have one woman born in Indiana and raised in Oregon with the two years of both confused to give September 11, 1940 for Terre Haute and the same month and day in '46 for Eugene, but this Eugene newspaper article says she was born in "Sweet Home," and does not identify it as out of state. So that's out the window. (I've put your talk page on my watchlist pending the outcome of this discussion, so you can reply right here and I'll know.) --Tbrittreid (talk) 23:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you decided to communicate with me about the Julie Payne entrtes, thus providing an opportunity to explore the matter in greater detail. There are two distinct issues at the forefront of this discussion — use of middle names or initials in main title headers and, crucial to the subject, distinguishing among individuals who are known by exact same names.  As an illustration of the first topic, a few weeks ago I moved Walter Kelly (comedian) to Walter C. Kelly, since that is how the star vaudevillian and occasional movie actor was always billed [his middle name was Charles], presumably to disambiguate himself from all the other Walter Kellys of this world.  The names of Edward G. Robinson and Leo G. Carroll would look very odd without the middle initial which was an integral part of their stage name and their identity as an actor.   Well-known non-entertainment-industry personalities with common names such as William Douglas also adopted the use of a middle initial (William O. Douglas) and, outside a specific context, would be virtually unrecognizable without it.  Similarly, highly recognizable full names such as John Stuart Mill, John Maynard Keynes, John Kenneth Galbraith or George Bernard Shaw would lose their distinctiveness, individuality and, very likely, recognition, if referenced as "John Mill", "John Keynes", "John Galbraith" or "George Shaw".  Occasionally, a distinctive middle name, followed by the surname, is used instead of the full name but, unless it becomes frequent practice, such a reference may seem forced.  On the other hand, two of my other moves — Dawn Evelyn Paris to Anne Shirley (actress) and Joanna Cook Moore (birth name Dorothy Cook) to Joanna Moore exemplified an opposite problem from that presented by Walter Kelly (comedian), whose name needed the middle initial instead of a parenthetical qualifier.  Research of records from those actresses' eras indicated that neither used her birth name as her stage name, although Dawn Evelyn Paris, during her period as a fairly well-established child and adolescent actress named Dawn O'Day (name redirected to Anne Shirley (actress), at least used her birth given name.
 * The other, more important, matter of a duplicate name is of key importance to actors, since any uncertainty or confusion about identity may represent the difference between success and failure in the profession. Names are registered with acting unions Screen Actors Guild (SAG) and American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA) which prohibit newcomers from using stage names of current members.  In same cases even a similar name presents a problem — in 1960 Mike Kellin filed a grievance with SAG and AFTRA against recent member Michael Callan whose name he perceived as sounding too similar to his own, but a union committee decided that since the 38-year-old character actor and the 25-year-old lead hopeful were not competing for the same roles, there was enough difference to allow Michael Callan to retain his name unchanged.  Using the IMDb to research the career of virtually any actor, one almost always finds numerous other entertainment industry personalities with the same or almost-same name.  In the case of established actors, the other same-named actors are usually one-role or bit-part non-union players.  They may also be players from other countries, usually Britain or Australia (English actor James Lablache Stewart was obliged to change his name and became Stewart Granger), or they may be actors from another era.  Silent film supporting performers named James Mason (whom the IMDB lists as "Jim Mason" and Wikipedia as Jim Mason (actor) despite the fact that he was never billed as "Jim Mason") and William Holden are two examples of actors with the same names as future stars.  Names which become available at SAG or AFTRA as a result of their previous possessors' retirement (with resulting non-payment of dues) or death are infrequently revived with new dues payments by other individuals who want the name for their own use, but the Julie Payne case is one of those rare examples.
 * Continuing from that last sentence we can try to elucidate the heart of the matter. Julie Payne (1960s actress), the daughter of film and TV leading man John Payne and the previously-mentioned child performer, later leading lady, Anne Shirley (actress), despite being billed in two 1960–61 sitcom episodes as "Julie Ann Payne", appears in SAG and AFTRA membership guidebooks and 1961–67 casting guidebooks (available at the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts) as "Julie Payne", which then constitutes her official stage name. Also, as far as can be determined, other than three half-hour TV series episodes in 1959, the remainder of her career lasted from 1960 to 1967, at which point she must have stopped paying her SAG and AFTRA dues, thus losing exclusive use of the name "Julie Payne".  In 1968 or 1969, Julie Payne (post-1960s actress), must have gained membership in SAG and AFTRA and, having already performed with the improvisational comedy troupe, The Committee, using her birth name, made a decision to continue her acting career under that name, despite its previous use by another actress.  Judging by the fact that Wikipedia's own article, South Eugene High School, lists her among "Notable alumni", class of 1964 (my experience with high school and college articles is that alumni keep a close watch for accuracy) indicates that the correct birth year is 1946, as originally listed in IMDb, and the birthplace is in Oregon.   Whatever presumption might have existed of her birth in Terre Haute and moving with her family to Oregon at a young age, is dispelled by the link on Talk:Julie Payne to the July 1976 interview with her in Eugene's newspaper, The Register-Guard, in which her age and place of birth are specifically indicated.  One must therefore assume that one of IMDb's associates, attempting to correlate the two actresses named Julie Payne, conflated their data, thus assigning to both the earlier birth year, 1940, along with marriage to Robert Towne in November 1977 and the birth of one child.  The single "Julie K. Payne" credit in a 1991 episode of a sitcom, must be presumed as a mistake, fluke or one-time experimental billing, and the listing of Terre Haute as the birthplace, which has been copied by other sites is, likewise a mistake.  Ultimately, lacking direct confirmation from either Julie Payne, one is forced to make some assumptions, but the preponderance of evidence, including this Birth Records Search, confirms the conclusions.&mdash;Roman Spinner (talk) 11:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow! Far more than I expected, and with all due respect, very little of it news to me. I do feel that dismissing Terre Haute and the initial in Get a Life simply by declaring each "a mistake" is ill-advised (and for the latter, "fluke" is merely another way of saying mistake, and "one-time experiment" just doesn't make any sense to me, at least that's how I feel about both in this context). As soon as (if) a station or channel I receive reruns that series, I'll pay attention to the airing sequence and find out if it is indeed the Oregon Payne in that episode and whether or not the initial is there. --Tbrittreid (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My previous three-paragraph posting is, indeed, overlong, with the first two paragraphs concerned not with the main topic of identity, but with examination of the stylistic appropriateness in using middle names or initials as opposed to parenthetical qualifiers. The last paragraph, which did focus on differentiating the two Julies, attempted to elucidate what was already discussed on Talk:Julie Payne and Talk:Julie Payne (1960s actress).  As far as the central point is concerned, it seems to have been agreed upon that despite what is written on IMDb's biographical pages for the two Julies, Robert Towne obviously did not marry both women in November 1977 and have one child with each of them, but his status as the April 1975 winner of the Academy Award for Best Writing (Original Screenplay) did ensure that his marriage to (and subsequent divorce from) the actress (or recent, but no longer active, actress) daughter of then-still-living former movie stars was covered in Variety, The Hollywood Reporter and a number of other publications.
 * Lacking celebrity parents, celebrity husband or attention-attracting film and television parts, Julie Payne (post-1960s actress) has had relatively little press coverage in her 40-year show-business career. She was cast in supporting roles as a regular in three 1983–86 TV series, but each series was canceled after less than three months.  The only specifics come from a 33-year-old interview in the Oregon near-hometown newspaper.  The link to Birth Database, which I provided in the previous posting, does not connect to specific searches but, for the record, it does list one Julie Payne, born July 10 [not August 10, as was indicated in a couple of other references], 1940, last residing in Los Angeles.  It also has two listings for Julie K. Payne, born September 11, 1946, last residing  in Studio City (first listing) and in Sherman Oaks (second listing).  Although I could not find any references which confirm that the "K." stands for Kathleen, the existence of the middle initial in the Birth Database listing does seem to confirm that "Julie Payne (post-1960s actress)" and "Julie K. Payne" refer to the same person.  While IMDb lists seven women named "Julie Payne" and two more whose extended name includes "Julie Payne", acting credits are indicated for only four of those names, two of which we already know and the remaining two (possibly the same person) seem to be non-union, non-professionals with a single bit part in obscure non-union productions.
 * Ultimately, over the last four decades, since 1969, only one performer, Julie Payne (post-1960s actress), has had SAG and AFTRA legitimacy to use the name. Therefore, in view of the Birth Database confirmation that Julie K. Payne, born September 11, 1946, lives in the Hollywood area of Studio City/Sherman Oaks, there can be virtually no doubt that the Julie K. Payne in the 1991 episode of the sitcom Get a Life is the same Julie Payne who holds rights to the name.  The likely explanation is that although her stage name is "Julie Payne", she may be in the habit of signing her checks and contracts with the addition of her middle initial "K.", to differentiate herself from all the other holders of that name, starting with those listed in IMDb.  In constructing the end credits, the production office must have inadvertently used her work contract signature instead of determining her standard billing.  Any other explanation, including the sitcom's use of a non-union performer who has virtually the same name as an established actress who has been appearing in TV shows and films for over twenty years (since 1970) is difficult to accept.&mdash;Roman Spinner (talk) 22:52, 22 December 2009 (UTC)