Talk:Julio-Claudian family tree

Untitled
There are two Agrippinas shown; are they the same? Also, there are two Tiberius Claudius Nero. What is the meaning of the broken lines? AxelBoldt 20:36 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)


 * Agrippina the younger was the daughter of Agrippina the elder. The elder Tiberius Claudius Nero was the emperor Tiberius; his nephew was the emperor Claudius.  I see you haven't complained about the four women named Julia Caesaris!  See Naming conventions (ancient Romans) for a discussion of this problem. Gdr 18:19, 2004 May 17 (UTC)

How about an Ahnenreihe ? Hotlorp

I'm not sure is this family tree is understandable, does anyone has a better one to substitute it? Muriel Gottrop

I just substituted the image. I think it's more clear. But it's huge, I know... Muriel Gottrop


 * I've substituted a somewhat less huge version of the image. (Is that all right? I should probably have asked first...) -- Paul A

Looks good! I did not knew about the png buisiness... MG

--- Several things are wrong with or missing from the tree as it now stands. Antony and Octavia had two daughters. The elder Antonia, not shown on the tree, was the mother of Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus, who married Agrippina the Younger. Their son was adopted by Claudius and became known as Nero. Claudius died in 54, not 51, so Nero became emperor in 54, not 51. Plinyfan

This family tree should also have a link, or something to indicate Claudius Marcellus was the son of C. Claudius Marcellus and Octavia, otherwise without already knowing this, his random appearance in the tree is somewhat confusing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.215.55 (talk) 18:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Nero's name
Was the name of the emperor Nero "Tiberius Claudius Nero" after his adoption? I have not encountered him being called "Tiberius Claudius" in any text; can someone please provide a reference? Lucius Domitius 04:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Caesarion?
Not that this already complex tree needs any further complication, but it might be worthwile to add Caesarion, Julius Caesar's son by Cleopatra VII of Egypt -- surely a relevant figure who is part of this extended family. --Jfruh 17:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Really his name was Ptholomeus Caesar, but was better known as Caesarion. He was killed soon after the defeat of Maurcus Antonius and Cleopatra by his step brother Octavianus (in fact Octavianus himself was adopted as son by Iulius Caesar himself).

M. VALERIVS LONGINVS BRITANNICVS —Preceding unsigned comment added by M. Valerius Longinus Britannicus (talk • contribs) 11:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Error under Nero
He came to power in AD 54, not AD 51 as the family tree indicates. Corax 05:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Missing relations?
Wasn't Vipsania a daughter of Agrippa? 18.252.6.246 13:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * And I think Claudius Marcellus (Augustus' first son-in-law) was the daughter of Octavia (Augustus' sister) and her first husband.


 * The question is how to actually fit that connection in without completely muddling that bit. &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742; 00:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Change to Template:Familytree
If there are no objections I would like make a tree with Template:Familytree so that we can add links and edit it more easily. I am working on a version in my sandbox before I load it here. — David618 t 03:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I transfered what I have to Talk:Julio-Claudian family tree/Update. — David618 t 22:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've started working on it, moved it to the Talk namespace. Dylan Lake 23:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, Done. Putting it on the article. Dylan Lake 03:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The main problem with the tree is that it doesn't consistently use space semantically: antecedents should be above, descendants should be below. Once you've done that, there's no need to use dashed lines for marriage: it's obvious that people from the same generation cannot parent each other. Remember: it's okay to make readers scroll around to examine a complex tree (I would drop the font size too). Vagary 02:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally yes, but it has happened, in Rome, that people of the same generation have adopted each other. Also, how to indicate multiple spouses without creating a jumble? BroMonque 20:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Should Antonia Elder be added as she was an ancestor of Nero?--Hjjcbvhbvh (talk) 23:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

sulla and julia the younger
173.13.48.89 (talk) 04:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)I know that in Colleen McCollough book First Man in Rome she makes a compelling argument for this marriage. I would like to know if the inclusion of that marriage in this family tree is further supported.- Thanks ad -

Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus
He was the son of Antonia Major (daughter of Marc Anthony). I think it's important that this be added to the graphic since he is the father of Nero. It further helps explain when this family got more nuts as time went on. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 (talk • contribs)

Translusion
Copied from my talk page:


 * I had assumed that a page such as this would be used as a translusion into other articles and as such it would benefit from hiding. My mistake.


 * However
 * I think that the the "Legend" should be moved into a box of the type I placed it in, and its positioning needs considering.
 * The relationships in the tree need to be fully supported with inline citations to reliable sources.
 * -- PBS (talk) 11:11, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I have moved the legend to the bottom and given it a visual border. I have also created a References section and added a template. -- PBS (talk) 11:12, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

In-line citations needed
From the history of the article: user:Francis Schonken "put cn templates where a direct citation would be missing" What does that sentence mean? -- PBS (talk) 15:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * cn --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The article contains no inline citations so it is impractical to add specific tags as it would be unsightly (see WP:CHALLENGE:footnote 3). -- PBS (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Francis Schonken, given the last posting by me to this section, why did you make this revert? with the comment "cn's where necessary, see prior comments on talk"? -- PBS (talk)
 * "... the article contains so few citations ..." no longer applies
 * "... impractical ..." applies as much for (more) in-line citations as for cn's, so if is impossible to tell where the in-line citations should go, consider being more specific regarding what you're asking for "... on the talk page." tx! (the above "The relationships in the tree need to be fully supported with inline citations to reliable sources" is covered by the five current sources afaics). --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:52, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * For example the tree says "Livia Drusilla Augusta" was married to "1 Tiberius Claudius Nero" and they had a son "Drusus the Elder". Both those relationships need to carry inline citations to verify that such relationships existed. It is not possible to tell which if any of the of the general references given cover those relationships. -- PBS (talk) 13:56, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Please put the cn template in exactly the place where you think that inline citation should be placed.
 * More than half of your contention is not covered by actual policy, will continue on that once it is clear that placement of the inline citation according to such requirement is unfeasible. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:37, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Which half of my contention "The article contains no inline citations so it is impractical to add specific tags as it would be unsightly (see WP:CHALLENGE:footnote 3)"  is not covered by "actual policy"? Footnote 3 states "It may be that the article contains so few citations that it is impractical to add specific citation needed tags, in which case consider tagging a section with unreferencedsection" so adding unreferencedsection or something similar  is covered by policy. Although placing citation needed on every leaf on this tree is not practical, as a test case I shall add a couple from the  example mentioned above. -- PBS (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I look forward to you answering my question. However I have one for you It seems very unlikely that it takes two citations and 6 pages to establish that the parents of "Drusus the Elder" so why have you included two citation of six pages "Meijer 1990, pp. 511/532/576-577" and "Kamm 2006, pp. 156-157" for that fact? -- PBS (talk) 23:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Simplified family tree
Re. Julio-Claudian family tree: a simplified tree is nice, but the current one seems a bit unbalanced: In sum, better to apply the same simplification rules throughout all generations. Otherwise "odd" is the least that can be said of this so-called simplification. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * no marriages of Julius Caesar mentioned, yet all three marriages of Nero
 * no daughter of Julius Caesar mentioned, yet Nero's daughter mentioned (note that the former was politically more relevant in the power relations of the Julio-Claudian era)
 * Poppea Sabina's marriage to Otho mentioned, unrelated to the Julio-Claudian dynasty, while Caesar's daughter, unmentioned, had a marriage relevant to the family tree.
 * Maybe these rules could work for the simplified scheme:
 * All Julio-Claudians by birth (not including those born out of wedlock such as Caesarion) or adoption are mentioned (includes Caesar's daughter);
 * Spouses are only mentioned when they have Julio-Claudian ancestry (e.g. Octavia minor) or were married to more than one Julio-Claudian (e.g. Livia)
 * For anyone mentioned per the above rules the blood line up to their Julio-Claudian ancestor(s) is explicited (e.g. Augustus and Octavia Minor &rarr; Atia (Atia's husband unmentioned) &rarr; Julius Caesar's sister (whose husband also remains unmentioned).
 * Would that work? --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:16, 11 June 2016 (UTC)