Talk:Juliusz Nowina-Sokolnicki

Various sources and an opinion about Mr. Nowina's place in history
The following are a number of published works verifying legitimacy of the Polish Government (In Exile) of President Juliusz Sokolnicki. Other important publications are currently in the research and prepublication stage and these will be added to the list as soon as they have been published. Perhaps it is worth mentioning that Sokolnicki's (and Zaleski's) Government papers currently occupy several basements in various locations in England. At some time in the not too distant future it will dawn on the current Polish Republic that an entire period in Poland's history is 'missing'. Perhaps only then will the reality of the importance of President Zaleski and President Sokolnicki finally be realized by modern Polish historians.

1. Order of Saint Stanislas Statues of 1979 (with changes as of 1984). Author: General Tadeusz Jagoszewski Publisher: 1984. Polish Government (In Exile), London. ISBN: Available: Out of Print This book contains the original statutes of the re-established Order of Saint Stanislas as laid down by the late Polish Government (In Exile).

2. Order of Saint Stanislas 1765 Author: Captain Michael Subritzky-Kusza Ct, GCStS. Publisher: 1994. Three Feathers Publishing. New Zealand. ISBN: 0-473-02931-6 Available: Out of Print This book contains a brief history of the legitimate Polish Government (In        Exile), photographs of the various Grand Masters and as well the constitution of       the Order of Saint Stanislas as of 1990 when it was made an "Independent" charitable Order of chivalry.

3. History of the Polish Government (in Exile) (1939 - 1990) Author: Captain Michael Subritzky-Kusza Ct, GCStS. Publisher: 1996. Three Feathers Publishing. New Zealand. ISBN: 0-958-3484-8-0 Available: Saint Stanislas Foundation, 101 Timbergate Drive, South Carolina 29073-9009 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

A most important monograph on the history of the late Polish Government (In       Exile) written by a well known New Zealand author who knew at first hand virtually all of the major players in the 'Exile' community. This book is backed up by numerous verified documents and a number of photographs, including several showing Lech Walesa, the then head of 'Solidarity' accepting decorations and awards from Ministers in Sokolnicki's Government (In Exile)

4. Comuniques of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Polish Government (in       Exile)  1983-1985 Author: General Waclaw Hryniewicz-Bakierowski Publisher: 1997. Holland Press. USA. ISBN: Available: Out of Print

General Hryniewicz-Bakierowski is a Polish national hero from World War II who was loyal to President Zaleski and remained loyal to President Sokolnicki after the death of President August Zaleski.

5. America Wake-Up! Author: General Waclaw Hryniewicz-Bakierowski Publisher: 1997. Holland Press. USA. ISBN: Available: Out of Print

6. Poezje Zebrane(opisalem co widzialem, myslalem i czulem) Author: General Waclaw Hryniewicz-Bakierowski Publisher: 1997. WERS. Poland. ISBN: 83-86906-46-4 Available: Wydawnictwo WERS, ul. Wroclawska 19/1, 61-838 Poznan, tel. komorkowy 0602357498. Poland.

7. Wspomnienia Mysliwskie Author: General Waclaw Hryniewicz-Bakierowski Publisher: 1997. WERS. Poland. ISBN: 83-86906-36-7 Available: Wydawnictwo WERS, ul. Wroclawska 19/1, 61-838 Poznan, tel. komorkowy 0602357498. POLAND.

8. Szkice 0 Ameryce i Trujacej Zywnosci Author: Konstanty Z. Hanff, PhD. Publisher: 1997. WERS. Poland. ISBN: Available: Wydawnictwo WERS, ul. Wroclawska 19/1, 61-838 Poznan, tel komorkowy 0602357498. POLAND.

9. Rewizja Historii Author: Konstanty Z. Hanff, PhD. Publisher: 1997. WERS. Poland. ISBN: 83-901606-7-6 Available: Wydawnictwo WERS, ul. Wroclawska 19/1, 61-838 Poznan, tel komorkowy 0602357498. POLAND.

Another important work which covers the various political activities of the late Polish Government (In Exile), and as well the 'Central European Council' (with       photographs) which was the all encompassing umbrella that the various 'Exile' groups were involved in.

10. Rewizja Historii (Tom II) Author: Konstanty Z. Hanff, PhD. Publisher: 1997. WERS. Poland. ISBN: 83-86906-91-X Available: Wydawnictwo WERS, ul. Wroclawska 19/1, 61-838 Poznan, tel komorkowy 0602357498. POLAND

No Wikipedia Objectivity
Obviously Wikipedia editors do not read the articles the lock and block. If there was even a pretense of neutrality terms like "illegal" or "self-styled" would not be allowed. Perhaps they should actually proof-read a disputed article?

The revert-bots in use apparently dont actually read the article, they just revert it back to its last "approved" form. I and others have tried to start an Order of St. Stanislas page, but the great and open minds of Wikipeda delete it and redirect it to the Order of St. Stanislaus instead which is sometimes mostly neutral but is generally biased with using enlightened terms like "self-styled" and "bogus." Cant say which is worse, the supposed "neutrality" of Wikipedia or the idiots who keep using perjorative terms.

How to get to write an article?
Dear 64.12.116.201, The logbook that showed us Says it all. People do not agree about Mister Nowina and his proper name, style, title, function or presidency. Editing in this pace, merely adding and removing the words " self styled", " so-called" and " bogus" indeed does not produce a Wiki article. The talk pages are there to find a solution but many of the interested partners are anonymus and do not care to discuss the matters before us.
 * "(cur) (last) 13:10, 13 August 2006 84.57.186.132 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 20:53, 12 August 2006 69.165.176.101 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 20:53, 12 August 2006 69.165.176.101 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 14:30, 12 August 2006 84.57.182.188 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 14:09, 12 August 2006 69.165.176.101 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 09:52, 12 August 2006 84.57.182.188 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 00:29, 7 August 2006 69.165.176.101 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 00:29, 7 August 2006 69.165.176.101 (Talk) "

The article as it now is not neutral. part of it is factual though. As it is the article is not growing. I find that dissapointing. As a Dutchman I am very fond of the " Free Poles" who helped to liberate my country and stood firm against the communist tyrants for so long. The problem is that, in the end, there were two Polish governments in London. Only the legitimite one could create or restore an Order of Knighthood. People will never agree on what was the real Polish government in exile!

Orders of Knighthood are institutions of the State and they are governed by law. Both Orders of Saint Stanislaus are trying to create myths. The words "ecclasiastically officialy" in describing the Polish Order, The word" Souvereign" in the former name of the Londen Order are both smokescreens. They are modeling themselves on the Order of Malta.

As it is I conclude that:
 * We can not even start to write an article on Mister Nowina because nobody agrees about his name.
 * There are four flourishing Orders of Saint Stanislaus, sadly enough they neither seem to respect nor acknowledge each other.
 * The followers of the Orders do not respect the rule that Wikipedia should be neutral. They use it as an instrument for self promoting and defamating each other.

I propose to stick to the page describing the historic order with links to the four existing orders.A ban on anonymus contributors would also be helpfull.

Faithfully yours,

Robert Prummel Robert Prummel 21:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)( not involved with one of the Orders of Saint Stanislaus)

Apparently various people have tried to create a page for the Order of St. Stanislas that was created in 1979. It is always denied since the Wikipedia luminaries simply redirect it the St. Stanislas page. Whoever keeps reverting that page also destroys the links to the other 3 Orders of St. Stanislas sites. It is no wonder those who might support Mr. Sokolnicki and his charitable activities are probably not too particularly pleased with having to see terms such as "self-styled," "bogus," illegal," or other slanderous perjoratives attached to Mr. Sokolnicki. And truthfully, without any subtantiated proof provided calling anyone names like that is not only childish and defeats the purpose of trying to present any fundementally correct information. In my view, if an article can not be balanced then it should be pulled.

There is nothing to discuss as long as people insist upon using "self-styled," "illegal," etc. Slander should not be tolerated, if you want to discuss something, fine, but obviously it cant be done on this subject with any decorum.

For anonymous spammer
Dear anonymous, your trollish behaviour is terrible. Mr. Nowina is NOT mentioned as president of Poland in exile anyvhere. For example, look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_heads_of_state_%281918%E2%80%93present%29, here http://rulers.org/rulp2.html#poland, here http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Poland.htm#exile, and http://www.president.pl/x.node?id=436. Pretty nice - Mr. Nowina is NOT mentioned anywhere! P.S. I hope you not delete this post.Yopie 20:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yopie & His Trollish Behavior
You have a lot of nerve claiming anyone else's behavior as being "trollish" considering your own consistently trollish behavior. Takes one to know one I guess. The 10 sources listed above in this section possess infinitely more scholastic accuracy than quoting notoriously inaccurate wiki-lists and biased web sites. Obviously there will never be a consensus on President Nowina-Sokolnicki and his place in history since there is so much obvious bias, but your trollish behavior certainly does not help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.153.245 (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Rebutting pro-Sokolnicki propaganda
I do not see how any sensible person can accuse Yopie of trollish behaviour. On the contrary it is clear that he is merely attempting to ensure that accurate information is conveyed. Mr. Sokolnicki (who calls himself "Count" despite no grant of a title to his branch of the Sokolnicki family) has never been recognised as "President". If one travels to the Royal Castle in Warsaw one can view the "Government in Exile room" which features portraits of all of the Polish Presidents in Exile. All of the presidents are featured. There is no portrait of Sokolnicki and he is not mentioned anywhere.

The books you quote are written by people who are extremely biased, some of whom hold high rank in Sokolnicki's self-styled Order of St. Stanislas. They are not acceptable sources to cite. In rebuttal I quote two official statements from the Polish Government taken from an essay on this subject (available here: http://www.geocities.com/polishnobles/Sokolnicki.html ):

"On 27 September 1994, Britain’s main Polish daily, Dziennik Polski, published the following statement, in Polish, from Lech Walesa's press spokesman:

"Article 11 of Bill 1 of 25 October 1991, while giving the President and Minister of Defence of the Polish Republic the power and obligation to promote to military [knightly] rank, also recognises this power as being bestowed by Authority of the Polish Republic up to 22 December 1990.

"The phrase ‘the Authority of the Polish Republic’ should be understood to mean the organs of the state institutions abroad [i.e. in London] based on the Polish Constitution of 23 April 1935. It therefore recognises as Presidents of the Polish Republic General Boleslaw Winiawe-Dlugoszowski, Wladyslaw Rackiewicz, August Zaleski, Stanislaw Ostrowski, Edward Raczynski, Kazimierz Sabbat, and Ryszard Kaczorowski, as well as the state organs appointed by them. ‘According to the Constitution of 23 April 1935 and historical fact they are the successors of President Ignacy Moscicki.

"The last mentioned, President Ryszard Kaczorowski, acknowledges that, following free elections in Poland and the election of the President [Walesa] in 1990, the activities of the President-in-Exile terminated when he handed the insignia of the Second Polish Republic to President Lech Walesa.

"With this in mind, it should be stated that Mr. Juliusz Nowina-Sokolnicki did not posess the authority of the Polish Republic and therefore his activities purporting to be actions of the state (as a result of calling himself President-in-Exile) cannot be honoured, and according to Article 11 of Bill 1, the ranks granted by him are not recognised.

(signed) Andrzej Drzycimski State Secretary Press Spokesman for the President of the Polish Republic (Walesa)"

And in a letter from the Vice-Consul of the Polish Embassy in Canada to the author of the web site essay:

“Dear Sir,

"Further to your letter of May 30th last, I wish to advise you that Mr. Juliusz Nowina Sokolnicki has never been a legitimate Polish President in Exile. His position has never been recognised either formerly by the Polish Government in Exile or currently by the Polish Government in Warsaw.  Therefore, his activities as a Polish President in Exile has [sic] never been honoured.

"Furthermore, by virtue of the statement of Mr. Andrzej Drzycimski - secretary of state, former spokesman to the Polish President Lech Walesa, published in June 1994, any awards, medals title or ranks granted by Mr. J. Nowina Sokolnici (i.e. the Order of St. Stanislaw mentioned in your letter) are not officially recognised by the Polish authorities.

Sincerely yours,

(signed)

Andrzej K. Krezel Vice Consul.” "

I think this settles the matter once and for all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sokolnickibogus (talk • contribs) 12:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

So much for balance and neutrality
So, books are biased, but internet postings are correct? Not the real world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.177 (talk) 21:06, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit war
"Sokolnickibogus" a name that just exudes objectivity and the promise of a balanced and neutral presentation. Talk about "trollish behavior." No wonder universities tell their students Wikipedia cannot be referenced in research papers because nothing is accurate. Just leave the article tagged as "disputed" and have done with it since there is zero agreement on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.177 (talk) 19:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

For anonymous (probably member of St. Stanislav Order): Books you cited are from members of "order". But, web sites I cited are notably and www.president.pl/x.node?id=436 is official site of President of Poland. Thus your argument is worthless... Yopie 19:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

"Sokolnickibogus" is as correct and accurate as monikers such as "skyisblue", "popeiscatholic", or "grassisgreen". I note you do not tackle the points that Yobie and I make, namely that the books you cite are written by members of the self-styled Order of St. Stanislas. Yet the letters and statements I quoted are official statements from the Polish Government. Neither can you demonstrate why Sokolnicki is not featured in the Government in Exile room in the Royal Castle in Warsaw. I do not see why the article should be left tagged as "disputed" since this is not a real dispute. There is a tiny minority of deluded individuals who regard Sokolnicki as legitimate while the vast majority of the population know that he is not. The Holocaust is denied by a tiny minority of imbeciles. Does that mean the wikipedia entry on the atrocities of the holocaust should be tagged as "disputed"? Of course not! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sokolnickibogus (talk • contribs) 16:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record (and as can be seen in the history section of this page): an anonymous poster with ISP address: 209.247.22.149 attempted to delete parts of this talk page authored by myself and Yopie. This is in clear violation of Wikipedia rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sokolnickibogus (talk • contribs) 23:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Two Generals, One Captain, and one Ph.D all with published books, but they are biased, because they may (or may not) be somehow involved with this Nowina-Sokolnicki person. Published literature by accomplished people balanced against couple of websites, one of which is from the government of Poland (which is in disarray), plus the well known fact that governments typically write and frame their histories to suit their purposes, particualrly former Communist nations (although the United States is gulity of that as well). And yet, somehow the books written by people who were more than likely involved at some level (I am guessing) are just wrong, period, end of story, no discussion. Also, you do have to admit that having a name like "Sokolnickibogus" is probably not the most conducive way to engender a "neutral discussion" for those who might be interested in the subject but can't fathom why its become some kind of Wik-Bloodsport. It all seems pretty strident, so why not have two different pages with their own unique POV rather than having all this childish edit warring? Separate pages, everyone can play in their own yard and leave the other alone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.123.226 (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I think, that "KONSTATYN" is puppet of Neokrieger.Yopie 12:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

For objective view one can see in well renowed book World Orders of Knighthood and Merit by Burke's Peerage and Gentry (ISBN 0971196672), where is Mr. Nowina cited as "self-styled President" and "selfstyled Prince". Of course, Order of St. Stanislav is in Part "Selfstyled Orders". "Two Generals" - yes, but "generals" elevated by Mr. Nowina. To be "general" in not proof of truth. Yopie 12:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Sokolnickibogus is Yopie and Konstantyn is Neokrieger? You people need a hobby - seriously.

Dear anonymous IP 209.247.22.144, yes Konstantyn and Neokrieger are your sock puppets. Yopie 21:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Nowina-Sokolnicki can create generals? Nowina-Sokolnicki can create PhD's? And all these creations are to serve his nefarious ends? Now if he would just create Middle East peace, THEN we can be impressed I guess... because in that case he would not be merely a Count, or a Prince, but God… —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.177 (talk) 17:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Letter from Lech Wałęsa to President Juliusz Nowina-Sokolnicki
File:Podziękowanie Lecha Wałęsy za odznaczenie Polonia Restituta nadane przez Prezydenta RP na uchodźctwie Juliusza Nowina-Sokolnickiego.JPG

Grand Master of the Order of Saint Stanislaus Chev. Juliusz Nowina-Sokolnicki
File:London Nov2007 3.JPG

Chev. Juliusz count Nowina-Sokolnicki - right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ETFTE (talk • contribs) 09:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Sokolnicki, Polish Ambassador dring Ww Ii in Ankara, Turkey
It might be of interest to know that the Polish Ambassador in Ankara during WW II was also called Sokolnicki. After the war, when the Communist took Power,he continued to live in Ankara, where he died in the 197ties. He was a Polish patriot that had excellent contacts with RP Gov in London. i got this Information during my time as diplomat in Ankara from a person that was close to Ambassador Sokolnicki. So it seems rather that somebody must play a dirty trick. René Henri Pasche, Gümligen near Bern, Switzerland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.247.250.9 (talk) 08:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)