Talk:Jump (Tyla, Gunna, and Skillibeng song)/Archive 1

Oxford comma
I've already been accused of WP:OWN here although I did not create this article, it was created by. Therefore, I do not wish to revert the edit before reaching consensus. , I thought you said something about the Oxford comma when you moved the page a week ago. Looking at Forever (Drake, Kanye West, Lil Wayne, and Eminem song), I was convinced that the Oxford comma was a thing but here we go again  dxneo  (talk) 02:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You're quite right, the MOS:OXFORD comma is a thing, and that policy is quite clear that it should be used.-- Laun chba ller 05:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello Coolmarc. I'm echoing the sentiments of Launchballer and Dxneo. Your recent edits appear to be non-constructive and are likely to be undone. Qaqaamba (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Am I missing something or where does it say at MOS:OXFORD that article titles should have an Oxford comma in them? It says to be consistent on the use unless it's for clarity. I don't think "Gunna and Skillibeng" without a comma between them implies that those two are a collective.  Ss  112   08:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ss112 according to MOS:OXFORD  "In such cases of ambiguity, clarify one of four ways:", "To list several people", "To list three people". This shouldn't be a significant issue warranting for modification and I fail to understand why Coolmarc has now what appears to be instigated this unecessary debate or discussion.  Additionally, I find it strange that after Coolmarc and Dxneo , had a dispute at Tyla's article (Special:Diff/1225510227) , Coolmarc, appeared to have followed Dxeno's edits, assumed that Dxneo created this article, as Dxneo recently evidently contributed a lot and thereafter decides to intentionallly as well as unecessarily modify what he /she assumed to be Dxneo's edits, as per "edit summary"   accusing Dxneo of WP:OWN. Qaqaamba (talk) 08:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't necessarily say Coolmarc has been following Dxneo's edits. Coolmarc has been adding charts to song articles in the past couple of days and would have come across this eventually. Coolmarc appears to have edited this article to add a chart before commenting on any talk page relating to Tyla.  Ss  112   08:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I also disagree with Coolmarc's rewrite of the lede. In my opinion, it's even worse than the previous version. However, it seems Coolmarc is convinced that it's an improvement over the "poorly written" one, which doesn't make sense to me at all. It all appears to be unnecessary and somewhat malicious from my perspective. Qaqaamba (talk) 08:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think i have came across in the 10 years I've been on Wikipedia a song article titled with the comma like that. Nobody is assuming Gunna and Skillibeng are a collective. I checked WP:SONGDAB and there is no mention of using the comma, Bang Bang (Jessie J, Ariana Grande and Nicki Minaj song) is even used an example there.  Cool Marc  ✉   09:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are we genuinely debating over a single comma here? And what about your lede rewrite, what makes it less, "poorly written"? Bottom-line, you were wrong for implementing that without discussing it, first and you're now instigating as well as synthesizing that it's such a big deal and treason against the encyclopedia. Perhaps it's time to take a break and step outside for a bit.  Qaqaamba (talk) 09:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * , comma or no comma, it doesn't matter 'cause the content is still intact. All of you are really doing a great job and we appreciate that. Removing cited content or removing verifiable information should be discussed on the article talk. I don't like to engage in content dispute and I'm sorry if I stepped on toe. Let's maintain a healthy working relationship moving on from here .  dxneo  (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't believe I maliciously removed sourced content anywhere. I've already explained on Talk:Tyla (South African singer) that Billboard Hits of the World charts should only be used if the artist/song did not appear on The Official South African Charts, South Africa's recognized national chart.  Cool Marc  ✉   09:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Lead
With regards to the accusations above about my edit of the lede. It read like a laundry list of names and people involved, incorrectly attributed vocal producers as being record producers, and was not consistent with the naming.

Jump" is a song by South African singer Tyla, American rapper Gunna, and Jamaican DJ and rapper Skillibeng from Tyla's debut studio album Tyla (2024). this did not read well, Tyla's debut studio album Tyla? impacted rhythmic crossover radio I made this more clear. The song was written by Tyla Seethal, Ariowa Irosogie, Imani Lewis, Corey Marlon Lindsay-Keay, Samuel Awuku, Samuel Kitchens, and Emwah Warmington, with production handled by frequent collaborators Sammy Soso, Ari PenSmith, Mocha and Believve. Ari PenSmith, Mocha and Believve are credited as vocal producers and are not the actual record producer. The naming here is also not consistent with the people's common names and suddenly talks about them by their birth name and even confuses the writers as being different to the producer "Tyla Seethal", Imani Lewis is known as "Mocha", Corey Marlon Lindsay-Keay is "Believve", Samuel Awuku is "Sammy Soso", Samuel Kitchens is Gunna, Emwah Warmington is Skillibeng.  Cool Marc  ✉   09:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Coolmarc is it necessarily to create an entire section? I thought we Dxneo, Ss112 and Launchballer, yourself and myself included have all moved on from this. Thank you for providing your alleged rationale regarding your edit(s) and as per above yours and all of our constructive contributions have been appreciated. I am certain no one wants to be engaging in a what appears to be a synthesized and intentional and maliscious, tired, drawn-out  debate on a Friday or Saturday (wherever we all are, at present) over trivial matters. Please, let it/us go. This specific section will be archived, soon.  Qaqaamba (talk) 10:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Please drop the attitude. I made a new section in response to your accusations unrelated to the comma so yes it is necessary. I would appreciate you stop accusing my edits of being malicious when they are clearly not.  Cool Marc  ✉   10:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Coolmarc you were the one who initiated accusations and debate. I fail to see why you've undone the archiving of this section. It's likely to be archived again soon, either manually or by a bot. Your supposed stipulations above hold no weight, as multiple contributors contributed and stipulated what was in the lede based on various RS. It seems you'll be having these debates alone, as I'm sure nobody is interested in what you're attempting to accomplish, nor is it conducive to building the encyclopedia in a collaborative and constructive manner. Qaqaamba (talk) 10:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Firstly, you have started all this by claiming my editing is malicious and archiving this discussion trying to silence me. How do my points not hold weight? The lead was presenting misconstrued facts and read like a laundry list. I never removed content, I constructively edited and corrected content as explained above. I'm all for collaborative effort.  Cool Marc  ✉   10:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Your inaccurate assertion, accusation and assumption in the form of WP:OWN comment in an edit summary specifically after  a dispute at the Tyla article and then coming over here to edit war over a single comma camouflaged with edits, unfortunately set a negative tone. Now that you've made your point, I prefer not to continue any further unecessary engagement with you. If that means silencing you as well, then so be it. Best regards.  Qaqaamba (talk) 10:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I will say my piece and I do not have to discuss every single constructive edit I make to you and Dxneo first. This is a collaborative encyclopedia which I have been a part of more than 10 years. I have written dozens of good articles, been part of several FACs and know how things work around here. I do not appreciate the personal and fake narrative you and Dxneo are creating that I am here with malicious intentions. Please stop lying - I never edit warred over a comma or "camouflaged" edits. I will take it up with an admin if these accusations continues.  Cool Marc  ✉   10:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * In reply to the initial post in this section: I don't have a vested interest in which way the lead is written, so it doesn't matter much either way to me, but I assumed whoever wrote the lead (and when I see things like "Tyla's debut studio album Tyla" written), that whoever wrote it has read WP:OFTHESAMENAME and has followed that advice. Of course, that's an essay and not a guideline or policy, so nobody's obliged to follow it, but in some cases it is sensible where "of the same name" can be confusing or in cases where it seems the wording goes out of its way to avoid a repeated word. In this case, "Tyla's self-titled debut album" seems fine to me though.  Ss  112   10:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ss112 thank you for sharing your perspective; it's truly insightful and impactful. Let's hope we can all really move forward from this now 😊 Qaqaamba (talk) 10:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Visuals
Hello again, thank you so much for improving this page, you the best. I just came across multiple articles about the music video review and that it amassed 2 million views in just two days, and I was thinking that's worth an inclusion in the article. Oh and an audio sample for Composition and non-free screenshot from the Music video wouldn't hurt I guess. Aiming for GA now haha. Thoughts?  dxneo  (talk) 21:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I was also thinking of expanding the Background section also but I wanted to hear you first. Thank you so much you the GOAT.  dxneo  (talk) 21:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey! No problem. I am loving this song so much at the moment! Just ordered her CD! I will see if I can upload an audio tomorrow. Feel free to expand as well or share articles for the music video section!  Cool Marc  ✉   21:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I will add the sample and expand as much as I can. You Will do the touch ups I guess. She's amazing, I wanna work on "Truth or Dance" too, it got some potential I guess. Oh and thanks for the charts, I just saw the testcase, it's amazing. They should also add/test the South Africa Airplay (Radio chart).  dxneo  (talk) 22:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Cool, thank you! The Radio chart isn't notable. The streaming chart is what appears on the TOSAC website home page and the chart that's discussed in the media.  Cool Marc  ✉   06:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello, I'm really not one to engage in content disputes but this is getting annoying. On this revision, you stated that it's of unreliable sources but the sources have never been assessed anywhere including at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard as they are still white, so how did you reach the conclusion that they are unreliable? As I recall, the information on the lead and infobox must be verified in the body of the article, so why was the song length removed again?
 * On this revision, in your words you said "WP:SINGLENETWORK, not notable" although it states that "They may occasionally be mentioned in article prose if special circumstances warrant it." but since they are talking about "special circumstances" I'm gonna let it slide. On "Water" under Composition and lyrics, this source is cited twice, and it is similar to your "unreliable source" so is it also unreliable? Like I said, I hate edit wars, that's why I'm on the talk and not rollbacking your edits.  dxneo  (talk) 01:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note that, Tyla said that part of the song was recorded in Jamaica when she was traveling. I don't see it anywhere in the article.  dxneo  (talk) 14:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure why you think these sites are reliable? They both give contradictory information about the song key. A song is not composed in 2 different keys. Songbpm is run by an upcoming app company called Blendist who say they are "a small team focused on building apps that help improve happiness and health" - this does not indicate reliability and appears to be WP:OR given that there is no evidence that this information on the website is provided by artist themself. Beatsource is a retailer site used by DJs. Similarly, does not indicate where they obtain the published key from. With regards to the TikTok and Spotify information, reaching #11 on a Billboard TikTok chart is nothing special. Likewise with 70 million streams on Spotify, hundreds of thousands of songs have achieved this and it's giving Spotify undue weight.  Cool Marc  ✉   15:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Tyla said in the interview the song was "ready" by the time she was in Jamaica but she felt something was missing and approached Skillibeng for a feature. According to the album liner notes, the only songs that were recorded in Jamaica were "Art", "On My Body" and "Priorities".  Cool Marc  ✉   15:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * , when information is from the artist you say is WP:PRIMARY, when it's from web sources you then seek validation from the artists. What's going on here? Please check the key from multiple sources and tell me if they are not saying the same thing. And again, does this source separate the writers? And before you tell me about the liner notes, remember they are all credited as songwriters on every streaming platform. And not every song has surpassed 70 million plays, if it's in the sources then it's worth an inclusion. You think the journalists would write about what's obvious? Stop reverting everything you do not agree with, it's okay to discuss it first.  dxneo  (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Beatsource claims the song key is in F minor while Songbpm says A♯/B♭. This is clearly WP:OR. This is not a case of WP:PRIMARY. This song is an original work composed and licensed by the artists and their publishing companies. They distribute the writing credits, the production credits, the sheet music with the relevant musical notation. Details regarding musical notation and published musical keys should come from the originally published work or be attributed towards it. Why would a random app company that "promotes health and happiness" or a retailer site for DJs be a reliable source for musical notation? If you really think they are reliable and this information is noteworthy for a popular music song then take it to WP:RSN. The definition of the word "alongside" is close to the side of; next to. You are thus implying Tyla and her team wrote "Jump" together with Gunna and Skillibeng. In the interview you linked above she mentioned that this was not the case, so it's misleading and false information. I am following WP:BRD and here we are discussing the "nonsencial issue".  Cool Marc   ✉   18:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Then find a way to list the songwriters accordingly, not some of them. And in South Africa, it's almost unheard of for songs to surpass 70 million streams. Hit songs like "Mnike" and "iPlan" certainly have not crossed that mark. If you work with us like this (discuss) and not just revert edits then I believe we will maintain a healthy relationship. Before I can remove your edit(s), I always consult with you since I know you are a formidable editor and wouldn't just make dummy edits, please do the same so we can find a way to move forward together for all your hard work. Wish to work with you in the future.  dxneo  (talk) 19:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's exhausting having to explain and do a back and forth constantly in the talk pages. I am following WP:BRD and explain in my edit summaries. I still feel 70 million streams is not noteworthy and that figure is going to become outdated fast anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by "Then find a way to list the songwriters accordingly, not some of them." That feels quite rude and abrupt. All of them are listed? Listing Tyla, Gunna and Skillibeng twice in two consecutive sentences is repetitive, hence "the three artists". I don't see how the word "alongside" helps, it makes the sentence incorrect.  Cool Marc  ✉   23:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I understand. You might find the following sources useful:
 * The Independent (music video review)
 * African Folder
 * Clash
 * HotNewHipHop (about Behind the Scenes)
 * Sportskeeda (I think it's non-RS thou)
 * That Grape Juice (Promoting the video before release? Not sure if this is RS) Anyway, have fun if you find them useful
 *  dxneo  (talk) 00:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 *  dxneo  (talk) 00:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Genre
Hi with regards to your recent edit to the genres. Referring to WP:EXPLICITGENRES, When classifying music, sources must explicitly attribute the genre to the work or artist as a whole and not use non-definitive language. The NME and Rolling Stone sources you refer to do not do this. NME says it "switches shuffling beats for a dancehall thump" - this is referring to the production/beat, not the song as a whole. Rolling Stone say Tyla is spitting dancehall bars. These sources do not describe the work as a whole as being dancehall, and this constitutes as WP:SYNTH.

This is why the Dancehall Mag and TOSAC sources are used as they both definitively call the song "a blend" of Afrobeats, dancehall and hip hop.  Cool Marc  ✉   11:22, 31 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Totally behind you on the WP:EXPLICITGENRES front, but I must WP:IAR here in order to spread misinformation. Please kindly listen to any dancehall song (Shenseaa, Spice, Skillibeng) and tell me that Jump does not immediately sound like a primarily-dancehall song. Also never thought my edit would be such an awful disaster since the other blended genres are still very much there in the very same sentence. On a separate note, TOSAC and DancehallMag (a local WP:BLOG, I must note) are not as reliable as universally established music publications like NME and Rolling, which in turn are much less likely to explicitly define a song's genre since they naturally write reviews creatively and not-as-straightforward. Hope that kinda makes sense lol. — cybertrip👽 ( 💬 • 📝)  11:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I concur Cybertrip. In my view, it also serves as a clear and typical example of Afro-fusion. However, there are no sources that explicitly state this, I wondered if we could make use of WP: MNA. Nevertheless, I chose to release the "theory". Qaqaamba (talk) 12:01, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Dancehall Mag are not a blog per their About page. They are a legitimate publication covering Dancehall and Reggae music with paid editorial and staff writers working from an office in Jamaica. Regardless of how reputable NME and Rolling Stone are, they do not definitively call it a dancehall song.  Cool Marc   ✉   12:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I reckon Afrofusion should be included in the infobox along with any genres that are explicitly mentioned. If not,  perhaps it could be included as a hatnote or in a/the See also section of the article ( but it certainly should find a place somewhere in accordance with the purpose of the encyclopedia). Qaqaamba (talk) 12:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that xx
 * Nit-picking and pedantry aside, if you brought together all the articles about "Jump," (including the TOSAC and DM that talk about the blend), the most referenced genre is "dancehall". In this way the majority of critics unanimously agree that it is first-and-foremost a dancehall song. So I think its fair for the article to reflect that too as per WP:MNA like said. — cybertrip👽  ( 💬 • 📝)  12:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No sources are calling it primarily a dancehall song though. What you are doing is original research and synthesis of sources, one of Wikipedia's most important policies. This is not Making necessary assumptions. Genres is an extremely sensitive subject and cannot just be assumed by users of an encyclopedia, it needs to be backed by sources that use non-definitive language.  Cool Marc  ✉   12:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * None of the sources explicitly specify a primary genre; instead, they stipulate or suggest a blend (crossover), which I reckon strongly implies or is hinting at Afrofusion. Given that it's a blend, in line with the encyclopedia's purpose, all explicitly mentioned blended genres should be acknowledged. As previously suggested, the inclusion of Afrofusion should be considered for the article. Qaqaamba (talk) 12:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No that is firmly against Wikipedia policy. We do not synthesize sources on Wikipedia.  Cool Marc  ✉   12:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * WP: MNA does not imply synthesis. The issue remains that no source specifies a primary genre, indicating that all genres should be mentioned. Including Afrofusion aligns with this principle. If there are any other concerns, it may be appropriate to request mediation through 30 or DR processes. Additionally, consistently engaging in "unecessary" debates or borderline edit wars with other editors is not a good look. Qaqaamba (talk) 12:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I would suggest you properly familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies and what constitutes as an edit war. I'm not going to have another back and forth especially with an editor wanting to include a genre because they feel like it and without a source to back it up.  Cool Marc  ✉   13:03, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that you go outside and touch grass from time to time. Best regards.  Qaqaamba (talk) 13:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK cool, great to know that the genre police are so devoted to making sure that the 13 people who will probably ever read this article are well-informed thanks to the opinions of renowned music connoisseurs sitting in the marketing team offices at the SA charts headquarters! — cybertrip👽 ( 💬 • 📝)  12:45, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not a genre police or a marketing team from SA charts headquarters. I do not appreciate you making this personal assumption.  Cool Marc  ✉   13:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * , just let him shape the article the way he sees fit. There's no way you can reason with him. I can bring up multiple sources describing the song as "dancehall inspired recording." He will still try to hide behind "WP:_." How can one compare a local blog and universally acclaimed music publications  dxneo  (talk) 13:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Dancehall inspired" is not the same as "primarily a dancehall song". I am not hiding behind Wikipedia policies. You guys are blatantly ignoring them. The sooner the policies of WP:SYNTH and WP:EXPLICITGENRES is grasped on this talk page. The better. I already mentioned at the start of this section, those universally acclaimed publications do NOT definitively call this primarily a dancehall song. You cannot use those sources to interpret otherwise.  Cool Marc  ✉   13:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's possible that you overlooked the fact that I was the one who originally added Afrobeats based on sources. However, when it was altered, I didn't insist on its inclusion. Similarly, I created the article without the Oxford comma, and when it was added later, I didn't push for its removal. Why? Because it's important to recognize that nobody is infallible, and editing should not be approached from a singular viewpoint. Moving from the Tyla article to this one over a single comma and now over a single genre seems excessive. What will be the next issue? You appear to be repeatedly disrupting the article among camouflage "good contributions". You've even attempted harassing and intimidating me on my personal talk page. Moreover,  article talk pages are not intended for extended discussions like a forum, a point that seems to be consistently overlooked, by you. This apparent trend of yours is becoming increasingly absurd. @Ss112 and @Launchballer please come and fetch your mate (if I am not mistaken), I am tired, fam 😭.  Qaqaamba (talk) 13:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment on content, not on the contributor. This is not a forum, this is a warranted discussion following the Wikipedia Bold, revert, discuss guideline. If you continue to lie and paint false narratives about me like this, I will be forced to consult an admin or WP:ANI. I never harassed or intimated you on your talk page. I asked you to revoke the drive-by Good Article nomination you made because you never significantly contributed to the article and are unfamiliar with the cited sources. Now you are here claiming we must call this song a totally unsourced genre because Wikipedia says we must "make necessary assumptions". Seriously?!  Cool Marc  ✉   07:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)