Talk:June Preston

Hunting for sources
Perhaps the Media History Digital Library will be useful. Here's the Motion Picture Herald, listing June Preston in the role of Mrs. Bluett's daughter in Anne of Green Gables, [RKO] Radio [Pictures], Oct 26, 1934.
 * Brief comment: June Preston has been given a contract by RKO, The Film Daily, Jan-Mar 1935
 * Here's an interesting one: last column of right hand page, Bad-Check Impresario Lands US Opera Troupe in Colombia Hot Water, Variety, July 1952, Bogota. To summarise, a group of opera stars from the Met (one of whom features on the flier for La Boheme that we have a snipping of) were on a tour of Colombia, when an Argentinian named Gregorio Ravic, who was paying their wages, was arrested for checks that bounced. The takings vanished, nobody got their salary, and the stars had to be rescued on a special plane because they couldn't pay their own way home. "Ravic is married to June Preston, soprano from St. Louis, who appeared in several performances here".
 * Which name leads only to more intrigue: Panama American, January 22, 1952 Advert, bottom of page 5: GALA CONCERT!! National Symphony Orchestra GUEST CONDUCTOR Gregorio Ravic Director of Buenos Aires Symphony Orchestra SOLOIST: JUNE PRESTON Renowned North American Soprano, followed the next day Wednesday January 23, 1952, by a note on the front page: Mystery Maestro - Gregorio Ravic, billed as Director of the Buenos Aires Symphony Orchestra, is to conduct the Panama National Symphony Orchestra [...] From the Buenos Aires bureau of United Press today came this message: "Both city-owned Teatro Colon and private music circles here have never heard of Ravic". I suppose the simple answer is that this charlatan also made up the whole thing about being married to June Preston. Card Zero  (talk) 00:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Has anybody searched Trove -- the giant free public-access database sited in Australia? I found it extremely helpful and fruitful when researching Freddie Bartholomew, the British-American MGM child star from the exact same era. Softlavender (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, from Trove I have found a total of six newspaper and magazine mentions, most all of them photos or passing mentions/announcements:
 * October 1934:
 * December 1934:, ,
 * January 1935:
 * June 1935:
 * January 1936:
 * -- Softlavender (talk) 05:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Is the Anne of Green Gables role even a speaking role?
Is the Anne of Green Gables role even a speaking role? The character doesn't even have a name (the credits only call the character "The Blewett Little Girl"). No mention of her or even Mrs. Blewett in the standard film plot, or even in the lengthy plot plus characters information in the Wikipedia article on the novel: Anne of Green Gables. Does she have any lines? I probably saw the 1934 movie at some point in my life but I certainly can't recall any details at this point. Softlavender (talk) 01:39, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Answer: No. It is a non-speaking role and she is on-screen for less than four seconds. Softlavender (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Notability
No one has yet demonstrated that this article subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Until that is demonstrated, the notability tag needs to remain on the article per Help:Maintenance template removal. As a courtesy, we are waiting a week or two to see if editors can dig up significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject (after that, it will probably go to AFD). But it's fairly clear that neither her career as a child actress (almost exclusively in uncredited parts in film shorts) nor her career as an adult soprano (almost exclusively in a falsely advertised tour of Latin America and a few appearances in Europe, plus a few local or regional appearances in the U.S.) rise to the level of Wikipedia notability, even combined with each other. Softlavender (talk) 09:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

June Preston Frocks
Well, one part of the hype that actually was a thing were "June Preston Frocks". I'm finding ads about them (yes, they are all advertisements of the dresses for sale for girls; and no, I did not use Pinterest) in U.S. newpapers from 1936 to 1943. Remember this Australian newspaper item from January 1936 ? Well, they took off in the U.S. Here are sample ads from all the years that I found: I did not find any non-advertisement coverage of them except for the 1936 Brisbane Daily Standard item linked in the second paragraph. -- Softlavender (talk) 10:41, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 1936:, ,
 * 1937: ,
 * 1938:
 * 1940:, , ,
 * 1942:
 * 1943:
 * According to user:Karenthewriter she sold dolls as well. I think they were up on Pinterest page. I can't see how this helps with notability though.   scope_creep Talk  10:53, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

, I agree with scope creep: Advertisements are definitely neither significant coverage nor reliable independent sources. (I'm not even sure they are allowed as citations on Wikipedia, and I don't think they would stand up to scrutiny on WP:RSN as usable in this article.) They are ads from manufacturers who entered into a licensing agreement with Preston or her parents in order to make money. They do not even indicate that she was either notable or known or popular. Films and manufacturers and stores attempt to merchanidise films and franchises all the time. I'm not sure that section added to the article should even stand, unless you find and actual independent reliable source discussing the products. In any case, this seems to change nothing in regard to AFD issues. Softlavender (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Softlavender I understand that you are not inclined to have any patience with anything connected with this article. Thank you for clarifying your position on advertising. Karenthewriter (talk) 04:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , can you substantiate your claim that I am "not inclined to have any patience with anything connected with this article"? That sounds to me decidedly like a personal attack rather than a comment on content, especially considering I have spent the better part of the past 2 days researching the subject in very minute detail and trying to improve the article. Softlavender (talk) 04:44, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think they were trying to reference a comment you made in this thread. – AssumeGoodWraith  (talk | contribs) 05:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in your response to my question to Karen, AGW. I will await her answer. Softlavender (talk) 05:27, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Softlavender, I made a grave mistake, and misread an earlier comment in the AFD? section. You wrote "When I consider that most of the major claims are outright lies, I'm not inclined to have any patience with them whatsoever" and somehow I interpreted that to mean you had little patience with this article. But I now understand you were referring to much of what June Preston's daughter had written in the article, without her providing any references. I am very sorry for the personal attack on you.
 * Being under a certain level of unease is no excuse for behaving so badly, but I have promised to help improve this article, and thought that by adding something quickly, while I search for better references, would lessen the chance of anyone immediately starting an AFC review. That was a very poor decision on my part. I am now in communication with June Preston's daughter, Sabrina, and asked her to send me good referenced sources. I have just received the first "batch" of jpeg photo attachments, and much of it is connected with June Preston Frocks. When I came here and read that advertising material is of little value in establishing notability, I felt anxious about whether I would have time to locate a bit of "wheat" from the "chaff" that I might be sent. I used very poor judgment, misinterpreted what I had read earlier, and wrote a dreadful reply. You are trying to help, and I made a dreadful blunder, for which I regret not being able to "do over" and make my remark go away. Karenthewriter (talk) 05:44, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I also concur with scope creep, that appearing in frock adverts and then using the adverts as a reference does not help with any notability one jot. I have cropped the photo slightly hope no one minds, it's a great photo. Theroadislong (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Birth certificate and birth date/place
(I just ran into this when researching the frocks.)

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Preston,_June

Astrodatabank's researcher is in possession of (a valid photocopy of) Preston's birth certificate, and it matches what her daughter has claimed all along (honestly, that's one thing the daughter has no motive or cause to lie about). I suggest if we are going to include birth information, we use that information instead of the absurdly varied information that has been reported in various different newspapers. Wiki user is co-owner/co-creator of Astrodatabank and its parent site, and can confirm that they don't claim possession of birth certificate unless they actually have it in hand. (Can ignore the biography, which they don't factcheck or cite, but they do scrupulously verify birth information.) Softlavender (talk) 11:07, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I've made this change since no one has challenged it. By the way, I've edited and researched on other wiki articles on child actors of this era, and when they could get away with it (which was frequently, since reference materials were not publicly available) publicists and newspapers made up all kinds of stories about child actors' birthplaces, ages, origin stories, and even careers, etc. That's why so far this wiki article has previously listed at least three incorrect birthplaces, all cited from newspapers of the era. Softlavender (talk) 08:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Is this her?
I found this article and am not clear on if this is Preston or not. If it is, then we not only get a middle name, but also fill in some of the time gap in between the acting and singing career phases. Silver seren C 18:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Beethoven review
, I think the summary of the Ninth Symphony review is confusing and distorts the meaning of the original article. You wrote, “Reviewer Thomas B. Sherman criticized the composer who put together the Ninth Symphony performance for forcing Preston as the soprano into a "cruel range" that was impossible for any singer to reach without screaming at points.” This makes it sound like Beethoven was alive and actively put together this particular performance of his symphony. The composer in question, Beethoven, died in 1827. Beethoven did not “put together” this specific performance of his Ninth Symphony, nor was the work altered to be higher for this specific performance (that would be sacrilege in the classical music world). Preston was hired to sing a well known masterwork as written by a dead composer. She clearly struggled to perform well, and the reviewer was blaming Beethoven’s writing for the soprano voice as the reason. However, I would point out that this is a very well known frequently performed work with many recording that do not have screaming sopranos, so I am not sure this is a fair assessment of the symphony or Beethoven’s skill writing for the soprano voice, but one particular reviewers reaction to hearing the work not performed well.4meter4 (talk) 19:00, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You are clearly trying to present what the source said in your own opinion. Your own opinion on the work and its ability to be sung has nothing to do with what reliable sources say. The reviewer was criticizing the composer of this particular performance in specific, not Beethoven, so feel free to reword to make that clear, but the rest of your comment is nonsense. The reviewer was blatantly clear that the composer of this performance did a poor job setting it up and any claims of Preston just not performing it well is OR on your part. Your opinion on whether the reviewer had a "fair assessment of the symphony" is again, your opinion, and an editor's opinion on what a reliable source said is irrelevant to article writing. I'm not sure why you're so determined to write things in a manner to make the article subject look bad. Silver  seren C 19:11, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you misread and misunderstood the article. There is no composer other than Beethoven.4meter4 (talk) 19:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're right, he was referring to Beethoven and not the conductor. So you are just mad at the fact that the author criticized Beethoven and you disagree with the author? Silver  seren C 19:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I just think that the review should be presented in appropriate context and without confusing the living and the dead. Best.4meter4 (talk) 19:30, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I support 4meter4's view. The reviewer said that she screamed, and blamed Beethoven. Other singers, however, are able to perform the part without screaming. I looks as if just Preston wasn't up to it. The wording presently in the article is misleading. I'd use the ref for the fact that she sang, but would mercifully drop analysis of what was written about her performance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * What part is misleading exactly? Misleading about what? It honestly just sounds like you disagree with the reviewer. Either way, I'm fine with reducing the analysis of her performance, still a useful bit of news coverage regardless. Silver  seren C 19:52, 7 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I think what G. Arendt says is right. The present article gives too much emphasis to the views of one reviewer in a local newspaper. Sherman either didn't know or ignored the fact that countless sopranos have coped in the Ninth mellifluously, and quoting his comment too closely is, I think, WP:UNDUE. The suggestion, above, by G. Arendt seems to me the way to go. –  Tim riley  talk   19:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for putting my thoughts into the right policy language. The issue here is the quote is more of a commentary on Beethoven then on Preston, and if we are going to make assertions about a major composer and a major work of music then we should use the best scholarly sources about that work and composer to support those opinions. This particular opinion would be difficult to support with the scholarly literature on Beethoven and  the  Symphony No. 9, and positions a review of a regional orchestra in a local newspaper in central place which gives WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to that source.4meter4 (talk) 20:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Source transcriptions and translations


Spanish:

Con extraordinario exito dio su recital el pasado dia 3 del actual, la famosa soprano June Preston, correspondiendo al concierto 11, de los que para este curso, organiza el Instituto Musical.

La destacada personalidad de June Preston puede reflejarse en unas palabras muy expresivas y llenas de sentido artistico: avanzada escuela en la tecnica del canto, dominio de los recursos escenicos, simpatia, y poderosa artifice de esa admiracion que las grandes figuras saben conseguir de los publicos, que las escuchan.

Con estas excepcionales cualidades fue desgranando todas las obras que constituian el programa, a cuyas dotes aun podemos anadir su agradable timbre de voz con perfecto dominio de los altos y bajos en su respectiva cuerda; musicalidad maravillosa, sensibilidad, gracia y prestancia. En fin que su recital constituyo una demonstracion de alta calidad en esta especialidad artistica.

En la primera parte interpreto "Komm Susser Tod" J. S. Bach; "An Choloe" Mozart; "Warnung" idem; "Bodad de Figaro", idem; "All Mein gedamken" Strauss; "Zueignung" idem; "Vergebliches Standechen", de Brahms; "Standchen" idem y "Der Schimed", del mismo autor.

En la segunda parte: "The rim of the monn" Michel Head; "Velvet shoes" Randall Thompson; "Linstead macket", Arthur Benjamin; "The Hero", Menotti; "El arbol del olvido", Ginestera; "Cobla leonsesa" Sandoval, Cantiga de idem y "Copla bailable" idem.

No cabe decir que el pianista acompanante Pedro Vallribera, ya conocido por el publico tarraconense, demostro, otra vez, sus grandes cualidades pianisticas resolviendo con gran habilidad todos los escollos del acompanamiento. Fue un excelente colaborador del exito del concierto.

June Preston y Pedro Vallribera fueron muy sinceramente aplaudidos, e interpretaron fuera de programa: "Spirituals negros" cantados con mucha gracia y esplendoroso dominio.

English:

With extraordinary success, the famous soprano June Preston gave her recital on the 3rd of the present day, corresponding to the 11th concert, of which the Musical Institute organized for this year.

The outstanding personality of June Preston can be reflected in some very expressive words full of artistic sense: advanced school in the technique of singing, mastery of the scenic resources, sympathy, and powerful architect of that admiration that great figures know how to get from the public who listen to them.

With these exceptional qualities, she was reeling off all the works that made up the program, to whose gifts we can still add her pleasant timbre of voice with perfect mastery of the highs and lows in their respective chords; wonderful musicality, sensitivity, grace and poise. In short, her recital constituted a demonstration of high quality in this artistic specialty.

In the first part I interpreted "Komm Susser Tod" J. S. Bach; "An Choloe" Mozart; "Warnung" idem; "Wedding of Figaro", idem; "All Mein gedamken" Strauss; "Zueignung" idem; "Vergebliches Standechen", by Brahms; "Standchen" idem and "Der Schimed", by the same author.

In the second part: "The rim of the monn" Michel Head; "Velvet shoes" Randall Thompson; "Linstead macket", Arthur Benjamin; "The Hero", Menotti; "The tree of oblivion", Ginestera; "Cobla leonsesa" Sandoval, Cantiga de idem and "Copla bailable" idem.

It cannot be said that the accompanying pianist Pedro Vallribera, already known by the Tarragona public, once again demonstrated his great pianistic qualities, solving with great skill all the pitfalls of accompaniment. He was an excellent contributor to the success of the concert.

June Preston and Pedro Vallribera were very sincerely applauded, and they performed off-program: "Black Spirituals", sung with great grace and splendorous mastery.

-- Silver  seren C 22:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)



Spanish:

Nunca reino tan buen humor en el Palacio de la Musica como en la noche de ayer. Todas las caras de los socios de la "Cultural" se mostraban risuenas, jubilosas. Ni un ceno de seriedad ni de tristeza. El regocijo parecia general. A que se debia tan inusitada actitud? Pues a la arrolladora simpatia de la artista que actuaba en escena: la soprano norteamericana June Preston, que acompana todas sus interpretaciones con los gustos mas expresivos, considerando la mimica complemento necesario del canto.

Pero no se crea que June Preston adopta en sus interpretaciones unas "poses" estudiadas, premenditadas, Nada de eso. Es que exterioriza asi lo que adente cuando canta, como propio de su intuicion, de su sensibilidad. Porque esta cantante norteamericana, que ha actuado con exito en conciertos y operas, especialmente en Centro y Sudamerica, posce unas dotes vocales privilegiadas y una capacidad de expresion muy amplia, como lo patentizo anoche a traves de un programa eclectico que incluia desde Bach, Mozart, Ricardo Strauss y Brahms, en la primera parte, hasta compositores modernos de las mas variadas caracteristicas: el ingles Michael Head, el noreamericano Randall Thompson, el italo-americano Menotti, el australiano Arthur Benjamin, el argentino Alberto Ginestera y el venezolano Miguel Sandoval.

Paginas de tan distintos estilos tu-...(unclear)...que le mosto su gratitud y admiracion de mode tambien elocuentemente expresivo.

English:

Never has such a good mood reigned in the Palacio de la Musica as last night. All the faces of the members of the "Cultural" were smiling, jubilant. Not a dream of seriousness or sadness. The rejoicing seemed general. What was the reason for such an unusual attitude? Well, to the overwhelming sympathy of the artist who acted on stage: the American soprano June Preston, who accompanies all her performances with the most expressive tastes, considering the necessary mimic complement of singing.

But do not think that June Preston adopts in her interpretations studied "poses", premeditations, None of that. It is thus that she externalizes what is coming when she sings, as typical of her intuition, of her sensitivity. Because this North American singer, who has performed successfully in concerts and operas, especially in Central and South America, possesses privileged vocal gifts and a very broad capacity for expression, as evidenced last night through an eclectic program that included from Bach, Mozart, Ricardo Strauss and Brahms, in the first part, to modern composers of the most varied characteristics: the English Michael Head, the North American Randall Thompson, the Italian-American Menotti, the Australian Arthur Benjamin, the Argentine Alberto Ginestera and the Venezuelan Miguel Sandoval.

Pages of such different styles you -... (unclear) ... that you showed your gratitude and admiration in a mode that was also eloquently expressive.

-- Silver  seren C 22:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)



Spanish:

June Preston. - Otra excelente cantanje, que fue presentada por primera vez en Barcelona por la Asociacion de Cultura Musical, en un concierto fuera de la serie de sus programadas sesiones. La alegria y cordial actuacion de la cantante, junto a su voz ductil, brillante, agil y limpida le granjearon las simpatias del auditorio, que le aplaudio en el transcurso de todo el recital, muy variado de estilos y tendencias, y siempre perfectamente interpretado. Pedro Vallribera fue el ajustado y pulero acompanante que sobradamente conocemos, compartiendo el exito con la cantante

English:

June Preston. - Another excellent song, which was presented for the first time in Barcelona by the Musical Culture Association, in a concert outside of the series of its programmed sessions. The joy and cordial performance of the singer, together with her ductile, bright, agile and limpid voice won her the sympathy of the audience, who applauded her throughout the entire recital, very varied in styles and trends, and always perfectly interpreted. Pedro Vallribera was the tight and fiery companion that we know all too well, sharing the success with the singer

-- Silver seren C 23:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)



Spanish:

La soprano norteamericana June Preston, del Metropolitan Opera House de New York y del teatro Colon de Buenos Aires. Ilega ayer tarde al pais con el fin de ofrecer varios conciertos en esta capital y en Santiago.

La senora Preston estuvo en el pais hace algunos dias, en viaje de descanso, y firmo contrato para varios conciertos con la sociedad Pro Arte, de esta ciudad.

Se informo que se incluidan elementos dominicanos en las presentaciones artisticas que se reslicen.

El pianista dominicano Manuel Rueda acompanara a la senorita Preston en sus presentaciones, la primera de las cuales sera en el teatro Olimpia, de esta capital, el 17 del corriente.

La senorita Preston acaba de regresar de una gira de conciertos por la zona del Caribe y America del Sur.

En el aeropuerto fue recibida por una comision de la sociedad Pro Arte.

English:

The American soprano June Preston, from the Metropolitan Opera House in New York and the Colon Theater in Buenos Aires. She arrived in the country yesterday afternoon in order to offer several concerts in this capital and in Santiago.

Mrs. Preston was in the country a few days ago, on a rest trip, and signed a contract for several concerts with the Pro Arte society in this city.

It was reported that Dominican elements are included in the artistic presentations that are resolved.

The Dominican pianist Manuel Rueda will accompany Miss Preston in her presentations, the first of which will be at the Olimpia Theater, in this capital, on the 17th of this year.

Miss Preston has just returned from a concert tour of the Caribbean and South America.

At the airport she was received by a commission from the Pro Arte society.

-- Silver  seren C 05:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)



French:

Dimanche 14 Fevrier a 7 heures P.M. grace a la courtoisie de Son Encellence le President de la Republique Paul E. Magloire, le Public de Port-au-Prince aura l'occassion d'entendre et l'admirer au kiosque Occide Jeanty, (Place des Heros de l'Independance) la magnifique Soprano Lyrique de l'Opera de N.Y., June Preston, de renommee internationale.

Les performances de June Preston a travers les importantes villes du monde ont eu Lapluls grandes resonnance dans les cercles musicaux. Non seulement les Chefs d'orchestres, les chanteurs d'Opera et les impresario, mais aussi tous les critiques d'art sans exception ne tarissent pas d'eloges a son endroit.

Le Public de Port-au-Prince est cordialement invite a applaudir dimanche 14 Fevrier a 7 P.M., June Preston au Kiosque Occide Jeanty.

Note Biographique

La brillante carriere de la jeune soprano nord americaine, June Preston, agee de 34 ans a debute alors quelle n'etait qu'un enfant et lorsque le fameux conducteur des Compagnies d'Operas de Leipzig et de Berlin, Gustav Stern, venant de sa ville natale en Allemagne, arriva a Seattle, Washington, pour activer le developpement de l'Opera et de la Musique Vocale dans les Nord Ouest des Etata Unis.

Une reception fut offerte en l'honneur de illustre maestro Stern, par la mere de June Preston. Dans une ambiance decordialite et sans ceremonie, le maestro se mit au piano et executa quelques chansons populaires. Immediatement plusierra Invites 'entourerent et se mirent a chanter ensemble les dites partitions. Le maitre sarreta aussitot. Il desirait savoir a qui apportenait cette voix surprenante. Cetait celle de la charmante et tres jeune June Preston.

Le lundi de la semaine suivante, il commenca l'education de celleci, ce qui te porta a s'interesser au developpement de sa carriere comme chantuse de Concert et d'Opera Toutefois la carriere de June avait debute

English:

Sunday February 14 at 7:00 PM thanks to the courtesy of His Excellency the President of the Republic Paul E. Magloire, the Public of Port-au-Prince will have the opportunity to hear and admire her at the Occide Jeanty kiosk, (Place from the Heroes of Independence) the magnificent Lyric Soprano of the NY Opera, June Preston, of international renown.

June Preston's performances in major cities around the world have resounded Lapluls with great resonance in musical circles. Not only conductors, Opera singers and impresario, but also all art critics without exception are full of praise for her.

The Public of Port-au-Prince is cordially invited to applaud Sunday February 14 at 7 P.M., June Preston at the Kiosque Occide Jeanty.

Biographical Note

The brilliant career of the young North American soprano, 34-year-old June Preston began as a child and when the famous conductor of the Leipzig and Berlin Operas Companies, Gustav Stern, from his hometown in Germany, arrived in Seattle, Washington, to activate the development of Opera and Vocal Music in the Northwestern United States.

A reception was held in honor of illustrious Maestro Stern by June Preston's mother. In an atmosphere of cordiality and without ceremony, the maestro took to the piano and performed some popular songs. Immediately moreierra Invites' surrounded and began to sing the said scores together. The master stopped immediately. He wanted to know who brought this surprising voice to. It was that of the charming and very young June Preston.

On Monday of the following week, he began her education, which led you to take an interest in developing her career as a Concert and Opera singer. However, June's career had started

-- Silver  seren C 05:40, 11 January 2022 (UTC)



Spanish

Cuando gracias a gentil invitacion tube el placer de escuchar a la distinguida cantante norteamericana June Preston, pude apreciar sus grandes cualidades de artista, su bellisima y extensa voz, su correcta emision, su temperamento intenso, dotes que capacitan a la senora Preston para llegar a ser una gran artista de opera. Esto explica el entusiasmo que me llebo al concerto que, organizado por la Asociacion "Amigos de la Musica", tuvo lugar la noche de anteayer en el Teatro Degollado.

English

When, thanks to a kind invitation, I had the pleasure of listening to the distinguished North American singer June Preston, I was able to appreciate her great qualities as an artist, her beautiful and extensive voice, her correct delivery, her intense temperament, gifts that enable Mrs. Preston to become a great opera artist. This explains the enthusiasm that I took to the concert that, organized by the "Friends of Music" Association, took place the night before yesterday at the Degollado Theater.

Silver seren C 20:51, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Merchandising deleted due to No Original Research
I had added a section entitled Merchandising, and wrote about June Preston Frocks. Another editor questioned whether that added to notability, so I thought it possible that the section would evidently be deleted. However, I was surprised when Innisfree987 deleted it because it was archival research, and at odds with WP:NOR. I based the section on advertisements I found while searching through newspapers.com for information on June Preston. If I had found five articles on films she had appeared in I would not have considered that to be original research, for I would have found the articles in a published source. I found the advertisements in published sources, so I'm not sure why that became archival research.

The section has been deleted, and I will not revert the deletion since it may not have been the best addition to the article. I can understand that a section based on advertisements was problematic, but I'm baffled by the No Original Research reasoning. Karenthewriter (talk) 01:02, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi @Karenthewriter, I understand that this part of WP policy is not necessarily intuitive. Not all published sources are equal, even in the same publication. We prioritize secondary sources, i.e. ones where primary material has already been subject to a fact-checking and editorial process filtering for accuracy, significance, etc. We need that because we don’t have the money to pay subject-matter experts to do the filtering. In a newspaper, the articles have been subject to that scrutiny, but advertisements have not, thus they are primary sources and discussion of them is original research. They could be used sparingly to verify a single fact perhaps, but really not to develop a whole section as that makes a claim about significance that comes from your personal interpretation. This is not to say my interpretation would be that the ads are anything but rich and interesting; but our interpretations are excluded by WP:SYNTH and just are not what we do here at WP, so it’s been suggested to the COI editor that she may wish to develop her own website to display them (and maybe even attract the attention of a journalist or scholar who would write them up for a source we could use.) Innisfree987 (talk) 01:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Innisfree987 I will accept what you have stated. However, if I should find a doll reference book that lists a June Preston doll, or if I obtain a published article that tells of June Preston Frocks, or other name-branded items, I will work on obtaining enough non-advertising references to attempt a new merchandising section. But if I add that new section, and it is also deleted, I will accept that as well. Karenthewriter (talk) 03:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Karenthewriter, I hope you’re able to find good secondary sources; that would be great. (Note that you need to be a little cautious with books; sometimes one that looks good is actually self-published.) But beyond that should be fine, just keep in mind WP:DUE weight. If the sources turn out to be voluminous, then maybe a section is merited. But right now the whole of her film career is only four sentences so adding another couple of sentences about merchandise might be plenty. Just depends on what you find. Happy hunting! Innisfree987 (talk) 03:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Is the information about Ravic's company even relevant?
Seems like something that belongs in an article on Ravic, not here. It's relevance is questionable. If the issue is the confusion over the name of the company and the fact that it wasn't actually associated with the Met, then removing both of those lines including the name of the company would avoid that issue entirely and leave an article that actually focuses on Preston in specific. Only the first part saying that she was a member of his company is relevant information for this article. Silver seren C 19:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Good trim IMO. Also then points to trying to reconcile bits just before and after—wouldn’t she have been 24 in 1952 (ie is that all the same tour?) Innisfree987 (talk) 19:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Given that her daughter has made inaccurate claims elsewhere online that she sang with the Met on tour in South America and the zarzuela book source also incorrectly makes this assertion, I think it's an important fact that needs to be included if only to prevent the claim from working its way back into the article and to be an accurate source of info against incorrect information about Preston on other websites.4meter4 (talk) 22:07, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a footnote? Innisfree987 (talk) 22:09, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems like a footnote would be fine. In fact, the two sentence we have now could just be moved to a footnote. Silver  seren C 22:14, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I've been WP:BOLD and deleted details of the programmes sung by Preston in Europe. We don't give this detail even for notable singers unless the performances are notably revelatory and acclaimed, (which in this case they were not), so all the material deleted by me is evidently WP:UNDUE.--Smerus (talk) 13:28, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

and I've moved the stuff about Ravic to a note, as suggested above. As he seems to have spent much of this tour in jail after bouncing cheques, he could indeed justify an amusing article in his own right.--Smerus (talk) 14:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please be more careful with your editing, . I have the non-English language sources in the section above with their translations. Your claim that one didn't discuss Preston is false. Silver  seren C 19:03, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, there is a problem here. The source citation refers to an article entitled 'La boheme in El Liceo'. That article is here and doesn't mention Preston. The link to the source citation is here - that doesn't have the article title claimed, although I now see it may be a continuation of the former (which is not cited). My claim may indeed have been mistaken - (although there was no intention, as you could be taken to imply, that I was intending to be 'false'). If the two sources I mention here are indeed one and the same newspaper article, please edit the WP article to make that clear.--Smerus (talk) 19:42, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

This is June's daughter, whoever put that ravic was my mom's husband would you please remove it off her page... he was her manager and a conductor as well (the whole cast of the Met, my mom, Jan Pierce, Salvatore Baccaloni, Stefan Ballarini, Utah Graf, and Eduardo were all being managed by him on that tour). There is no reason for that negative press you put on there in Variety (which doesn't even look legit) to be on her page, she had nothing to do with his wrong doings (the entire cast was burned by him) and whoever put that on my mom's page is trying to make her look bad (guilt by association). Please remove it. If you want your "Reliable Sourced" articles from her career spanning from 1950-1960's including a 1962 Walter Winchell column article about her fame, go to her pinterest opera board I am stating to add more "Sourced' articles which corroborates what I have been saying from the start. Check painters for updates, I just started adding reliable sourced articles on a daily basis to show the non-believers the truth. thanks!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idoonie (talk • contribs) 08:37, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * An IP removed the sourced information about the marriage, and left the text unclear as to what company was being referred to, so I added a clarification . From my view, it seems best at this time to not include the detail of the marriage, in part because we generally do not have a lot of sourced biographical information available, and also per WP:NOTGOSSIP, e.g. Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, [...] is significant enough to be included in the biography of a person. This detail does not seem significant enough to include without a source commenting on the significance, or without more developed biographical information available to provide context. Beccaynr (talk) 23:21, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Lotte Lehmann
I notice you challenged Preston's studies with Lotte Lehmann. What makes you think this is inaccurate? Lehmann was teaching in California in the late 1940s and early 1950s at the Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara. Preston was a member of the San Francisco Opera chorus in 1952. Lehmann had a lengthy professional career with the SFO and was closely tied to that company. I personally think its plausible that Preston participated in at a minimum a masterclass(es) with Lehmann given the timeline and geographic overlap. The two women were likely to run across each other through SFO connections in the early 1950s. I think the zarzuela book is likely accurate on this point, although the extent of studies may have been very brief ( i.e. masterclass sessions). Its possible she was a private student as well. Best.4meter4 (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If she attended a masterclass then that scarcely qualifies her as studying under Lehmann. If she was a private student, then some supporting evidence would be necessary to say so. Plausibility is not quite enough for WP, as you will know. Given the other inaccuracies which we know to have studded this article, I don't think the zarzuela book (which also meretriciously claims that Preston debuted at the Met at the age of 24), can qualify as a reliable source. Best, --Smerus (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, the zarzuela book has errors but I think easily understood ones. The Spanish language author was clearly going off of Spanish language press articles about Preston, which is why the Met probably ended up into her bio in that book. The tour's organizers were clearly deceptively marketing the tour as connected to the Met, and were able to do so by legally naming the touring opera group "Compañía de Ópera Estrellas del Metropolitan" (Company of Opera Stars of the Metropolitan). They hired Met singers while they were off for the summer which made people think it was an actual Met tour. It's not surprising the press was confused about the tour, and thought it was organized by the Metropolitan Opera, and the tour organizers were happy to keep the press confused to further ticket sales. Catching the deception required looking at English language American press like Variety and Opera News, or a check in the Met's archives. It's doubtful this researcher had access to those sources being outside the USA (and possibly not able to read English), and I can see how the mistake would have been made based on Spanish language newspaper articles. I have no reason to doubt the Lotte Lehmann studies as she was a highly active voice teacher in California with many students in her studio, and would have been exactly the sort of person Preston would have been encouraged to study with while a budding opera singer in San Francisco. Best.4meter4 (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * With the best will in the world, I cannot feel that you (or for that matter I, were that the case) having 'no reason to doubt' LL teaching JP would count as appropriate proof for WP purposes. That's basically WP:OR.What we need is reason to credit, from a reliable secondary source. If the zarzuela book were able to provide a reference, that would perhaps be different - but it doesn't seem to. And as it didn't bother to check the Met reference we can I think have no confidence that it checked on LL. Best, Smerus (talk) 21:17, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

This clipping from The American Observer is some interesting reading in relation to your discussion,,. Silver seren C 22:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ? Doesn't seem to mention Lehmann.--Smerus (talk) 09:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not in regards to that, no, but gives a lot of other useful information, such as studying under maestro Gustav Stern, maestro Edwin McArthur, and composer Martin Kalmanoff (The fact that we're missing an article on Kalmanoff seems a bit disgraceful). So even if we are unable to confirm Lehmann with a different source, we still have other helpful information in the same vein. Silver  seren C 09:38, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not a reliable (or remotely credible) source for any of the above material. This is not 'information', just appears to be recycled publicity puff, as is much of the 'information' in Latin-American newspapers, Walter Winchell, etc. cited in this article. Can I gently point out that the source is not 'The American Observer' as you mistakenly cite, but 'The Armenian Observer'. The main thing this article indicates is that JP had sunk so low by 1982 that she was reduced to giving recitals at US Armenian old folks' homes. --Smerus (talk) 10:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree. The main trouble here is the quality of the sources. It looks like the publications have not done independent fact checking, and have largely just reprinted information provided by Preston or her agent. I would assume good faith on teachers and training provided by the artist in an article like this normally, but Smerus has convinced me that it probably is not wise. Once we’ve caught one factual error it’s difficult to AGF about anything; particularly without details.4meter4 (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but your claimed opinion on independent fact checking is itself without facts. You have literally no evidence outside of a single thing (the company not officially being a part of the Met) that is incorrect. And we already know why that misconception would occur, especially with the name of the company in question. Assuming everything else, including everything about things she did totally unconnected to Ravic, is lies is itself blatant OR. You have absolutely no backing to claim anything else is false. Silver  seren C 18:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Honestly, that's kind of the last straw for me. Your attacks on the article subject. You clearly can't be neutral on this subject and shouldn't be editing this article at all. Silver  seren C 18:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Whereas, of course, your determination to accept anything not clearly falsifiable cannot possibly be construed as WP:OR, and you are in every aspect entirely neutral in your approach to the topic. I completely understand. As we say in Armenian, Երջանիկ կյանք ունեցեք. Best, Smerus (talk) 20:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So, me following what the reliable source coverage says is OR, but you claiming without evidence that the information is wrong isn't OR? Silver  seren C 20:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @ Do we really need to resort to personal attacks? Please be civil. We can have a difference of opinion without needing to be rude to each other. Smerus expressed concern over the reliability of the sources, and I tend to err on the side of caution when other editors object to source quality. You are perfectly able to make a counter argument about why we should accept the sources as reliable. Everyone wants to do what is best for the encyclopedia, and we shouldn’t be sniping at each other.4meter4 (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Then maybe Smerus should stop insulting the subject of the article when you know her daughter is also here reading this talk page? Silver  seren C 22:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that more respect could be given in the tone of the conversation. I certainly, began the thread earlier on the talk page rather heated when discussing issues with softlavender (largely in response to the earlier version of the article) but have sense calmed. It’s clear to me the Preston article should be kept at this point, and I think that is largely due to the improvements that you have made. I have also added some good content myself, such as her university education. Let’s keep moving forward with positive energy. I am open to hearing why you think we should accept the content from these sources. You will remember I began this thread questioning the removal of her teacher from the article; so I myself was leaning towards not outright dismissing the sources originally. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:57, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi It's June Preston's daughter, I have to say, it's sad you have to fight about all this, I am not lying. Seams like some people are making it their mission to prove me wrong for some reason, it's a bit sad. Anyway, I will clarify all with "Reliable sourced articles" I am compiling at this time and putting on Pinterest for the people trying to help me and to prove this is truth to those who are non-believers. All "Reliable Sourced" articles from her professional opera career spanning from 1950-1960's including the "reliable sourced" 1962 Walter Winchell column article about her being "booked solid around the world" is or will be posted on her Pinterest opera board, I have a lot so it takes time, especially trying to translate. I am adding more each day "Sourced' articles which corroborates what I have been saying from the start. Check Pinterest often for updates, I just started adding reliable sourced articles on a daily basis beginning 1950 onward. thanks! Idoonie (talk) 09:01, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @ Nobody is accusing you of lying. This conversation is about this book: User Smerus is questioning its reliability, and our ability to include its content (such as the studies with  Lotte Lehmann) per the policies at WP:Verifiability. Please understand that wikipedia is not concerned with what is true but what is verifiably true from quality sources. I personally can see a good argument for keeping the info on her teacher, but I also can understand why Smerus is reticent to use the source. Best.4meter4 (talk) 16:11, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Silver screen: this is June Preston's daughter. HOW DARE YOU! "the main thing this article indicates is that JP had sunk so low by 1982 that she was reduced to giving recitals at US Armenian old folks' homes." HOW DARE YOU be so insulting! Not that I need to explain anything to you but first of all my mom only did this appearance as a personal favor to a special friend AND she did this along wit Martin and another San Francisco Opera Co. Tenor, Vahan Khanzadian to show the difference in renditions of how my mom sang it and how Vahan did. Martin Kalmnoff was a lifelong friend of my mom's and he wrote "The Lamento di Puccini" for my mom and by the way I have the original sheet music for it! And for your information, she was not "reduced" to anything. My mom retired from opera when she had me in 1964! She did not want to have me subject to all the touring her career demanded and gave it up for ME! So before you cast stones, check your facts! And if you want REAL reliable sourced articles, programs, photos to go Pinterest I am putting everything on her Pinterest page year by year (1950-1963). AND June Preston was already established by the time she toured with the Met in 1952 by the way, sponsored by Coca-Cola, McCann-Errickson etc. in 1950 onward do you think corporations like that will sponsor a nobody as you like to point out she is? And why else would she have been performing with The met cast in "Mimi" AND "Tosca" both in the lead, if she wasn't ready established. So please STOP being so offensive! Is it so hard for you to admit that she was who I said she was. Everyone is welcome to go to her Pinterest page on the Opera side and you will see all the articles, photos which I am putting on daily. And by the way: Here are some "Quotes" located on the back of one of her programs when she performed in Casablanca (also on Pinterest board): located in 1952 section and 1954 section: Quote: "Jan Peerce (Tenor of Metropolitan Opera NYC) "Singing with her in "La Boheme" was a great experince" Quote: "Salvatore Bacaloni (Basso from the Met, NY) "She is my "Mimi" a great artist & Colleague" Quote: "Robert Weede- (Baritone of Met in NYC) "A magnificent voice" Quote: CS Koussevitzky (Conductor of Boston Symphone Orchestra): "Her voice is as clear and pure, as pure as water from a beautiful crystalline fountain". Does THAT sound like a nobody to you? Have a good day! Sabrina... 172.116.187.37 (talk) 07:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Fact-checking screen credits
I am fact-checking the June Preston screen credits which are currently listed in this Wikipedia article as of 01:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC). I am bolding each production as I watch them (I'm watching in totally random order), and verifying the information below each. I will update as I am able to watch more of these. If you wish to reply, please do so below my signature at the bottom, thank you.


 * In Love with Life (1934)
 * Have a Heart (1934)
 * Anne of Green Gables (1934)
 * This is a non-speaking role, and Preston is on camera for less than 4 seconds (starting about 14:09). She never fully faces the camera.
 * Here is My Heart (1934)
 * Thin Ice (1937)
 * IMDB says: "Little Girl Skating (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists in the film. There is not a single child in the entire film. The only skaters are Sonja Henie and her troupe. (you are wrong) Preston was in both Thin Ice and Second fiddle as a skater, shows particularly good at ice skating) see below for times... Maybe her part was taken out form time purposes, but she was in the movies. period!
 * History Is Made at Night (1937)
 * Maytime (1937)
 * IMDB says: "Little Blonde Girl Singing (uncredited)"
 * There is a children's chorus of about 12 boys and girls, on screen intermittently between 2:04–2:56. It's possible one of the girls could be Preston. See below, For your information, this was the Meglin Kiddie group sining which she was in check out Meglin Kiddies so you know what I am speaking of and she is seen singing in the group (at the end of the song) and elsewhere throughout the movie, there are photos of her on the backlot in costume for Maytime along with other children of which one is from Our Gang comedies) on Pinterest.
 * Valley of the Giants (1938)
 * IMDB says: "Little Girl Crying (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists in the film.
 * You Can't Cheat an Honest Man (1939)
 * IMDB says: "Little Blond Girl Singing and Dancing (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists anywhere in the film.
 * Second Fiddle (1939)
 * Christmas in July (1940)
 * IMDB says: "Little Singing Blond Girl (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists. From 44:00–55:00 in the film, crowds of children are intermittently shown, but no lines are spoken, none are singing, and no face is on screen for more than a second (except for Sophie, a named and billed character played by Sheila Sheldon who has a couple of important scenes and lines).
 * Second Chorus (1940)
 * IMDB says: "Little Blonde Girl Dancing (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists. There is not a single child in the entire film.
 * Never Give a Sucker an Even Break (1941)
 * IMDB says: "Little Blonde Girl Dancing (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists in the film.
 * The Strawberry Blonde (1941)
 * IMDB says: "Little Blonde Girl Singing (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists anywhere in the film.
 * The Devil and Daniel Webster (1941)
 * IMDB says: "Little Blonde Girl (uncredited)".
 * There are non-speaking child extras in a couple of crowd scenes, none on screen for more than a second, except for the following: In one crowd scene, there is a blonde girl who passes by from 27:15–27:18 (three seconds), but I'm not currently convinced it is Preston.
 * Heaven Can Wait (1943)
 * IMDB says: "Jack Van Cleve daughter (age 13) (uncredited)"
 * No such character exists in the film.
 * Happy Land (1943)
 * Our Gang comedies:
 * Shrimps for a Day (1934)
 * IMDB says: "Little GirL Chasing the Goose (uncredited)"
 * There is a girl (standing still, not chasing) who shoos away a goose and has one line: "Shoo, shoo, shoo, go away, go away, shoo." Scene, which starts about 4:00, lasts about 12 seconds. Uncertain whether it is Preston.
 * Beginner's Luck (1935)
 * Sprucin' Up (1935)
 * The Pinch Singer (1936)
 * Rushin' Ballet (1937)
 * Framing Youth (1937)
 * Mail and Female (1937)
 * Our Gang Follies of 1938
 * Duel Personalities (1939)
 * Time Out For Lessons (1939)
 * Calling All Kids (1943)
 * Radio Bugs (1944)

--Softlavender (talk) 01:27, 11 January 2022 (UTC); updated 10:25, 11 January 2022 (UTC); updated 08:52, 12 January 2022 (UTC)


 * By the way, not a good track record so far. Out of the 9 credits I have checked so far, 5 are blatant falsehoods, her credited role in Anne of Green Gables was a four-second non-speaking part, and the rest of the claims are questionable, and even if verified somehow are only non-speaking (or one-line) roles of a few seconds each. Softlavender (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * We already knew they were uncredited minor roles. That was already a known thing. Even the listings you're going through on imdb state that. Silver  seren C 01:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point. She is not in most of the films at all; not even as an uncredited extra. So those will need to be removed from the wiki article, and eventually removed from IMDB (which is user-generated). Softlavender (talk) 02:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Please also note that Preston's daughter had previously added several other films into this Wikipedia article which aren't even listed on IMDB. I already removed those three days ago (after searching for verification):, , , . Softlavender (talk) 02:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)


 * For ones where there is no reference to back up the appearance claim, it's fine to remove. But for any referenced one, your personal viewing OR is not an actual source to refute the claim of appearance in the film. Silver  seren C 04:37, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not if the claim is provably false and the citation is unreliable (it's an advertisement/announcement to sell clothes at a store). If you or anyone believes Preston is in Christmas in July (viewable online or home video), please indicate at what timestamp, and what spoken line precedes and follows the appearance. Softlavender (talk) 04:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Except that you mean "provably false" as in us as editors doing original research and claiming it is false from us viewing the film. That's not how Wikipedia works. Silver  seren C 05:01, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Fact-checking primary sources to confirm that unreliable secondary sources are correct is not original research, it is fact-checking. No one is citing anything to the primary source, but we are removing the unreliable secondary source (and that particular claim it made) because it made a provably false claim. Softlavender (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

This is June's daughter and I'm not going to get into with you, but it seems like some people are making it their mission to prove me wrong or make me out for some sort of lier for some reason. Why on earth would I lie? I mean think about it... what's in if for me? Nothing, absolutely nothing at all! Look, all I know is that my mom was in the movies listed (she remembers being in those movies) there are papers mentioning her being in some of them so regardless what you think or what your little searches come up with that's not set in stone either. There are lost films, fires back in the day film/archives destroyed... what's to say her stuff wasn't destroyed, no one really knows for sure why she isn't in some archives maybe they just weren't digitized. For all I know she may have been in more than that, unlikely but cause she would have remembered but it's a possibility. For example, I have "reliable sourced newspaper" stating she had a "Feature part" in Christmas in July and she is in the Movie Still front center, but he is not credited and maybe her part ended up on the cutting floor, who knows? but that's not her fault. So before you dismiss everything she did like you are doing, maybe check out her Pinterest Film board and see for yourself. Yes, a majority of her films are not credit but they are mentioned in articles in newspapers saying she has a feature part (i am awaiting responses from LA Times and Texas Herald about getting the full page article because I only have the clipped articles which sadly doesn't show the date/page) but they will help me find them. And a lot of articles are clipped, she had Press companies around the nation that clipped her press daily and that's all they did, some have their stamp and put the paper/date/page but not all. So no, some don't have the entire page to see the name of paper but maybe only thh the date - but really? so what... then there are some with the entire source. I will be updating her Pinterest Film board as I find more "sourced" articles (I have a lot to sift through) so keep checking and maybe then you will find what you need and stop calling me a liar between the lines. And, if you can prove to me she was not in a particular film, by all means take it off and I will also have it taken off IMDB but, I'm pretty sure these are accurate because she remembers being in them and they are in print. And one more thing, if she is a "Nobody" as you are insinuating, why would she have several manufactures for June Preston apparel lines, a Doll, handkerchiefs, June Preston trademarks from 1934-1950. that were selling all sorts of apparel from 1934 thru 1948? (and I only say 1948 because it's the last year "I" was able to find, it could have gone longer) although 1948 sounds right because she left the industry then. Why would anyone want to buy "Nobody Film Star" dresses for their children. Don't you feel like something is just a little bit off? Stop trying to knock her down and maybe try and help instead of dismissing everything she ever did. I'm sorry but it's just shameful. Idoonie (talk) 09:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

look I am not going to go through each movie just to prove your information and "Opinion" is wrong about each movie she was in listed above. If there is a movie where her part is not viewable maybe it was cut out for TV timing like they do all the time, I don't know BUT for example: You mention she was not the little girl skating as there are no children in the film or something like that: Second Fiddle: She is also one of the singers at around early in the movie in a classroom and then the "little girl skating" beginning around 17.47. in the movie. On Thin Ice: Sonia is not the only skater... she was most likely one of the young people skating chorus before Sonia goes out for her solos... i don't know but I do know she was in the movie... I really am not going to go to every movie she was in to defend her. I am not lying because if I were lying, I would have had tons of movies on there. She had a smallish amount of movies she was in and that is what is on her filmography. But, your saying, "You don't seems convinced it's June Preston in a movie" does not mean anything, she was also in movies as a Meglin Kiddie which the studios also used for scenes in their movies and they put their best kids in some movies such as "Maytime", etc. There are photos of my mom in the back lot of the set of "Maytime" in costume on Pinterest... and I am adding more articles daily now because I feel this will help people see her career was serious otherwise why would she have a clothing line from 1934-1948 sold worldwide. Why would people purchase "Nobody star" star apparel? See one of the letters about Marshall Fields selling thousands of dresses dated 1948 send to the RKO studios, etc. Does that sound like a "Nobody". It's all on her Pinterest Film board. Thanks and have a great day Idoonie (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Please understand that whether she appeared in a film is irrelevant unless reliable independent sources have reported it in significant detail, read Verifiability, not truth. Theroadislong (talk) 18:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)


 * @Idoonie I am saddened to learn that the ten hours of volunteer work I did in an effort to find reliable sources for this article has been deemed “little searches” because I did not find what you wanted me to find. I have been a Wikipedia volunteer editor for 15 years, and I know that nothing can be added to an article without being able to cite reliable references – ones from books, magazines or newspapers “that exercise some form of editorial control and have some reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.” (From Your first article.)


 * It is unfortunate that you wrote an article for Wikipedia before you understood the referencing requirements, and it is also unfortunate that you have chosen to criticize volunteers who refuse to ignore the requirements they have worked so hard to learn and incorporate into all of their unpaid efforts. Because my “little searches” have upset you (and I will continue to upset you as long as I follow necessary protocol) I will ease your unhappiness by doing no further work on this article. Best wishes on your Pinterest project. Karenthewriter (talk) 03:42, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I am very sorry you are offended, I did not mean to downplay all the work you did, I was upset... trust me... I have been working on this now for a week solid, it has taken over my life, from morning till night to sift through tubs of publicity, organizing, and trying to put relevant things on Pinterest while trying to Organize that board in sections to simplify searches for everyone on this board to view quickly. These movies are listed in my mom's records as being movies she was in. I cannot explain why she has no credits and why they speak of some of the movies in newspapers at least 4 pictures she was in, yet none of us can fact check them. But they are mentioned as her being a Feature artist. In fact, upon signing with RKO she already had a 3 film commitment (also in an article) stating "Anne of Green Gables", "In Love With Life" and "Here is My Heart" a Bing Crosby film and another article states that movie is being previewed at a Texas Theatre and played the next 2 days... So see what I mean. It's not you, it's just strange we can't find record of anything. It's just odd. As for the girl skating in "Thin ICE", I just looked an it wasn't Thin Ice, it was actually Second Fiddle (her memory is not what it use to be) regardless, I am also caught between the woman that did the films and the reality that no one can seem to fact check them when she was actually in them. It is frustrating and I apologize for being upset and for my choice of words, i did not mean it the way it sounded. On my end of this, it is not a pleasure because my mom's career span from 1934-1948 yet, no one can fact check her roll featured or minor, yet ads and articles call her a Film Star. Anyway, I do appreciate the time you have given to this. And I wish you well. Take care, Idoonie (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Pinging in case you don't see this – AssumeGoodWraith  (talk | contribs) 10:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

COI query
In their complaining about me above, User:Silver_seren comments "maybe Smerus should stop insulting the subject of the article when you know her daughter is also here reading this talk page?". This raises a number of issues: amongst them, how can I be expected to know that JP's daughter is reading this page, and, if I did know, why should that impede me, or anyone else, from acting as a disinterested WP editor?

But more interestingly (to me), it raises the question of how Silverseren knows that JP's daughter is reading this talk page? If Silverseren is in contact with JP's daughter, then should they not declare an actual or potential WP:COI? Some clarification here would be helpful.--Smerus (talk) 13:40, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The user (Prestons' daughter), is ; they've declared COI, reached out to the Reference Desk and included the info in this edit summary about a week back. Panini! 🥪 17:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * (It's also literally pointed out on the top of this talk page in the banner. And she reached out on Wikiproject Women in Red, hence why several of us are here.) Silver  seren C 18:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this explanation, Panini!. A week ago seems an aeon in this saga. Best, -Smerus (talk) 21:25, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The is June Preston's daughter and yes I am reading this page, and yes, I read ALL the pages I have been mentioned in, I do it in order to help or clarify thing for people. I get the message on top of the screen where the bell is located, click on it, and there are all our chats. So yes, I AM reading this page, and yes, some of it is just very hurtful and sad just like they are on other pages. I don't know anyone on this page or any of the other pages, but I do read them to see if I can provide any info. or clarify things, but the more I clarify, the more some push back. It has become apparent that some have made it their mission to prove me wrong and flat out call me a liar which is shameful uncalled for. And again I say to them, why would I lie? What's in it for me? NOTHING, there is nothing in it for me. My mom was a child star of the 1930' and 40's I have the proof, it may not all be "Sourced" because she had publicity companies nationwide that only did daily press clippings and yes, some are stamped with the publication and date/page and some are not but regardless i have them and will post them on her Pinterest Film board for all to see. I am not very well versed at the Talk vs. the chats on wiki and yes I saw several messages which led me to Women in Red page and saw written message to me and I tried to help but then saw more hurtful chatter from people that in my estimation that have no clue as to how the business ran back in those days, but it is what it is, I can't change that. Not all archives were digitized when digitization came to be, but there are thousand of advertisements for June Preston apparel nationwide from 1934-1948 so if she was a "nobody star" why sell her merchandise for over 14 years??? Just because they cannot find something in their little searches it does not mean it is not so: I have the articles and press clippings of her career. I can't help it if she was not credited in her films... that is a fact, does not make her less or me a liar. Sometimes I wish I would have never started this, it's not worth the stress i have endured in the past couple weeks. It's just sad. And it's also very sad for the people at wiki that ARE trying to help fix the page... if it wasn't for all of them and the time they are putting into this to fix it, I would have call corporate, have a chat with them and have them take the page down.Idoonie (talk) 10:30, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi It is the nature of Wikipedia policies that the information has to be checked and verified. I understand why your feeling that way. It is unfortunate it is such a long time ago, as I known from experience that the information from that period is patchy at best. We are doing our best. Unfortunately it never works out as you think it will.    scope_creep Talk  11:09, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank ScopCreep. I know it is so long ago and it's a shame... but I'm adding to both her Pinterest boards as fast as I can. I have been compiling her extensive opera career by tour, year and country and I have started putting a little at a time on her Pinterest page because I am also trying to find sourced info. in her stuff for the film career... someone at the Texas Herald said Genealogy has her film stuff they checked, so I may join that (do you know anything about that site?. I'm not sure if you are the one dealing with the opera side? but there are several references in articles on the opera end with reliable source newspapers saying she is The Voice of the current time, those articles will be added daily also I just found Quotes shown on back of her Casablanca programs: Quote by: "Jan Peerce (Tenor of Metropolitan Opera NYC) "Singing with her in "La Boheme" was a great experince" Quote: "Salvatore Bacaloni (Basso from the Met, NY) "She is my "Mimi" a great artist & Colleague" Quote: "Robert Weede- (Baritone of Met in NYC) "A magnificent voice" Quote: CS Koussevitzky (Conductor of Boston Symphone Orchestra): "Her voice is as clear and pure, as pure as water from a beautiful crystalline fountain". Which makes me think she performed with the Boston Symphony Orchestra, more I need to look for, this is becoming a job LOL. I saw other quote from Conductors in the US, which I will add to her opera Pinterest page (im trying to just do year by year now, it's to hard to skip around, not to mention dealing with the film career stuff too. Thanks and take care...! signing out. Idoonie (talk) 04:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Preston's marriage to Ravic
This content is cited to Variety with a proper citation including article title and page numbers. It's in the very last sentence of the article on page 11. It states, "Ravic is married to June Preston, soprano from St. Louis, who appeared in several performances here". As such, the content does not fail verification and that tag should not have been placed by .4meter4 (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And yet Idoonie says her mother was never married to Ravic (and he is not her father). Do we have any actual marriage records or any documentation other than that one article's claim at the very end of it? One would think such a marriage of two notable people would have gotten coverage when it occurred, even if in brief (and presumably occurred prior to the company's trip?). Silver  seren C 23:39, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's also weird that none of the other coverage of the company's performance trip that Preston went on mentioned such a thing. Silver  seren C 23:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand that. However, Variety is a widely respected independent publication and the fact is verified. I won't speculate as to why Idoonie's account is different than what a reliable respected published source say. It's possible she is correct, and the source is wrong. It's equally possible that her mother had an earlier marriage and divorce that she doesn't talk about. We don't always know our own family histories. Regardless, this clearly falls under verifiable information, and we shouldn't accept a COI editor's claims over an independent printed source with a good reputation per policy.4meter4 (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Except that the information wasn't made by Variety. They possibly may have written it up, but the notation is pretty clear that the actual claimed information came from Bogota. It looks like they independently messaged Lubarsky, but everything else is based off of information from Bogota. And it's also weird that the statement is in the final sentence and it comes out of nowhere and has nothing to do with the information preceding it. Do we have any other evidence or indication anywhere else that it's accurate? Silver  seren C 00:06, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Variety has staff reporters/correspondents in cities globally, and they mention cities when their staff reporter for that city is doing the reporting. The Bogota citation is letting the reader know its coming from the publication's Bogota correspondent.4meter4 (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
 * My mistake: at the top of the same page there is a separate shorter item about Ravic that makes no mention of his marriage and while I looked for where that column might continue, I did not think to look for a second story. In any case like Karenthewriter I’m unwatching now. Godspeed. Innisfree987 (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

She seems (also?) to have married a violinist, Saul Houben (see June Preston Pinterest page).--Smerus (talk) 12:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
 * What's the source? I couldn't locate it on the Pinterest link. We should add that marriage as well if it's from a reliable publication. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
 * see here...also in her daughter's write up ofJP in IMDB....but these wouldn't count as WP sources.....--Smerus (talk) 16:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I just noticed that an anon ip removed the marriage info from the article last April. Given the contested nature of the content by the subject's daughter, I have chosen a compromise rather than a direct revert. I moved the info into the footnotes section and merely stated that the source reported the marriage rather than making an outright claim of the marriage. That seems to be the most careful way to present the content and comply with the policies of Conflict of interest, Neutral point of view, and WP:CENSOR.4meter4 (talk) 17:53, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggested edits from June Preston's daughter
'''Did you read the Hollywood Reporter obit? THAT is who she was not what is on wiki or do the wiki contributors know more than the Senior Editor at the Hollywood Reporter?'''
 * If anyone bothered to go to her Pinterest Boards online (opera and child star) which I have supplied to all which includes the full newspaper clippings, interviews, reviews, actual contracts and more, I would think her wiki page would be accurate but it is not. Most of the information on my mom is from a time where minimal documents have been digitized and it was abroad. The information in Wiki is from the very few references they could find online, but not entirely accurate because they have her in the US when she was clearly abroad, so whoever found the info. got the wrong person or bad source.  I have ALL the saved reliable credited newspapers with articles, interviews, reviews of her all over the world, which are all posted and downloaded online for all to see and use.
 * June Preston Opera
 * June Preston Child Star
 * As YOU requested, this is what is inaccurate:
 * 1)As a child star, she was promoted with heavy marketing and merchandising to position her as the next Shirley Temple. Actually, She was promoted as June Preston, not a second to Shirley Temple. This would be more accurate: Preston was born in Glendale, California. She made her screen debut at age 4 after being spotted on the RKO lot by an executive who requested an immediate screen test that landed her first role as Mrs. Blewett's Daughter in the 1934 film "Anne of Green Gables", and went on to do various other movies including Christmas in July, Have A Heart, In Love With Life, Maytime, Second Fiddle, History Is Made at Night, and Our Gang Follies. With her increasing popularity, she then went on to sign on with major merchandising contracts for various apparel lines including June Preston Frocks, JP Fairy Tale Frocks, a June Preston doll, suites, hats, shoes and toys, paint sets, paper cut out books, and more.
 * 2) Raised in Temple, Texas, Preston began her film career after her photograph was shown to the casting office of RKO in 1934, and was cast in a small role in Anne of Green Gables.
 *  Actually, She born and raised in Glendale, CA went to Sherman TX shortly before being "Spotted on the RKO Lot by an executive who requested an immediate screen test which led to a 7 year contract with RKO then another at age 9... 
 * 3)Preston then signed a contract with the studio and appeared in short films. (Actually they were not just short films only)
 * She also appeared in the 1934 MGM film Have a Heart. By 1936, she was promoted as an RKO "featured child player" and clothing model. She also had a small role in the film Our Gang Follies of 1938. For several years, a clothing line was produced under her name, including dresses named June Preston Frocks.  Actually, she appears in films not just short films just look at the obit from the Hollywood Reporter, he had more information than even I did with her films through his database. "Featured child Player" was used as she was a feature in a movie such as Christmas in July, just means an actor. And, it was multiple apparel manufactures for Dresses, Coats, Hats, Shoes, a June Preston Doll, and toys 
 * After her film career ended, she moved to West Seattle and attended James Madison Junior High and then West Seattle High School, graduating in 1947. Her high school would later, in 1989, induct her into their Hall of Fame.) Actually, her career didnt end, she left it to pursue an opera career because she was discovered by a famous Conductor Gustav Stern a German conductor and professor at Seattle University who coached her from age 15-16 and led her to worldwide fame (which is written in a 1975 book available to see on her Opera Pinterest board.
 * Preston studied music at Seattle University where she appeared in the university's 1947 production of Gilbert and Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore and was the soprano soloist in the university's performance of Giuseppe Verdi's Requiem in 1949. Actually, she began her studies in Junior High and within her University time period, Preston performed with the Seattle Civic Light Opera Company with which Stern conducted several operettas featuring Preston in the lead, such as Camille in "The Merry Widow", Marietta in "Naughty Marietta", Micaëla in "Carmen", Gianetta in "Gondoliers" "New Moon", and "Der Fledermaus". In that time Preston also performed in the Metropolitan Theater, Seattle Civic Auditorium under the baton of Gustav Stern (All seen on Opera Pinterest Board)
 * In 1950, she began a singing tour through Mexico, performing in Guadalajara at the Degollado Theater in July. ''' Actually, Beginning at age 22, Preston was sponsored by CocaCola, McCann-Erickson, Gaseosas, Fridgidaire, and the US Embassy for Radio & TV tours in over 6 countries, Coca Cola publicized Preston as "The Golden Voice" and she was the exclusive artist for McCann-Erickson. In late 1949 Preston began touring in North America performing in top Opera Houses, 1950 onward she performed in top opera houses such as, the Teatro Colón in Buenos Aires which has near-perfect acoustics, Teatro Nacional de Costa Rica, Palacio de Bellas Artes in Mexico City, Teatro Municipal in Santiago, Chile, Teatro Municipal, Rio de Janeiro, Gran Teatre del Liceu, Barcelona. As well as performing recitals for Presidents, and Diplomats. There were several US Embassy galas in honor of June Preston throughout Central and South America where she also performed as the featured guest. Preston was considered the "Established favorite in the lyric theaters in Central and South America."
 * In the summer of 1952 she toured with a company led by Argentine opera impresario Gregorio Ravic, which included Nicola Moscona, Jean Madeira, and Graciela Rivera, for four weeks of performances in cities in Colombia. Preston sang the role of Mimi in La bohème opposite the tenor Walter Fredericks as Rodolfo.  Actually, In 1952, she joined the cast of the Metropolitan Opera on the "Stars of the Metropolitan Opera" tour in the lead roll of "Mimi" in La Bohème opposite Metropolitan star, Jan Peerce as Rodolfo as well as Walter Fredericks, Nicola Moscona, Stefan Ballarini, Uta Graf, and the great Salvatore Baccaloni. And on a separate tour that year, Preston performed in the lead as "Floria Tosca" in "Tosca", opposite Tenor Walter Fredericks, Salvatore Baccaloni and others of the Metropolitan Opera. This is all in print reliable sourced newspapers located on her Pinterest Opera Board 
 * She was a member of the chorus of the San Francisco Opera for the 1952-1953 season and 1953-1954 season. Beginning a performance tour through the Caribbean in early 1954, she conducted a series of singing acts in February of that year starting in Port-au-Prince, Haiti. Later in the month, she traveled to Roatán, Honduras and performed with pianist Manuel Rueda from the Dominican Republic.  Actually, this is the worst inaccurate information, a Chorus girl?  She was NOT a chorus girl in these years.  She was NOT even in this country in the times you have on there, she was on tour abroad starting 1950-1960 (you can see all the newspaper clippings, programs, etc. for each of those years on her Pinterest Opera Page showing you she was not even in the US at this time. She was already an established Opera singer touring North/Central/South americas and then Europe on the BBC, Telephone Hour and sponsored by Coca Cola and exclusive artist for McCann Erickson etc. She did not do "Singing Acts" she performed Operas and Concert Recitals, My Lord, if you look at her Pinterest Opera Board all tours which are shown by BY YEAR, Newspaper Reviews, Interviews, programs, TV Shows etc.  Important like that should be on her wiki page.  
 * On 4 and 5 November 1961, at the Kiel Opera House in St. Louis, she was a soloist in the final movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 in concert with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra. She subsequently began a tour of recitals in Europe. In October 1962, she sang at Op Gouden Wieken, a concert hall in The Hague. She gave a recital on 30 November 1962 in Barcelona at the Palau de la Música Catalana and a subsequent performance in Tarragona on 3 December 1962 .  Actually, this is not bad but very minimal, it should read: In 1960 Preston returned to the US and made her debut at the St. Louis Symphony Hall as a guest star under the baton of Leopold Stokowski as the soloist singer for last movement finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Other guest stars included, Isaac Stern, Leonard Bernstein, Leslie Chabay and Jean Madeira. Following was Preston European tour where she debut at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, and thereafter touring throughout Europe performing in the most prestigious Opera Houses in Europe such as Palais Garnier, Teatro alla Scala, Parnassos Concert Hall in Athens Greece, Teatro Municipal, Lisbon Portugal, El Palacio de la Música, Barcelona Spain, Teatre del Liceu, Gran Teatre del Liceu, Teatro Nacional de São Carlos, and many more. The majority of Preston's performances were overseas. (all this documentation full newspapers can be seen on her Pinterest Board) 
 * ''' And why not add the Walter Winchell column and the was a fan of hers? Such as his write up about her European tour (which is on her Pinterest Opera board under Walter Winchell) Walter Winchell Column: December 20 1962: Page 24. "June Preston, American opera-lark, is getting rave notice in Europe. From an Amsterdam critic: "A smash! Every area a jewel!" June shrugged off the stallers along Broadway and is booked solid around the world..."
 * In the late 80's, Preston was signed as a cover performer for Kate Smith patriotic songs.  "Why this is on her wiki page is beyond me, She did this as a favor for a friend for a benefit, this is just stretching to find something to put on her page that clearly doesn't need to be, it was in print one time so that is why they put it on, but is this really relevant? no it's not. 
 * ?Notes: Ravic's company was known as the "Compañía de Ópera Estrellas del Metropolitan" (Stars of the Metropolitan) as several of the ensemble's leads were principal artists of the Metropolitan Opera (the "Met") who performed with this touring group while on summer break from the Met. However, it was not affiliated with the Met and also employed singers from other American opera companies. A 1952 Variety article reported that Preston was married to Ravic at this time.  Actually my Mother was NOT married to this person, he was her manager until 1952 when she fired him.  June Preston was married to one man, my father Saul Houben who died in 1982 and she NEVER remarried.  So kindly take off that she was married to Ravic? it was a mistake printed in the paper as I see it myself.  It was a mistake which happened frequently in those days. 
 * '''And what about the top vocal coaches she studied with? The great Lotte Lehmann, Edwin McArthur who worked with her a year to prepare for her for European tour in 1961, and Richard Lert, Sir Thomas Beecham and what about the newspaper stating she was offered to join La Scala in Milan? Or She being signed as first soprano at Teatro Colon in Buenos Aires one of the top opera houses in the world, and signed with multiple Symphony Orchestras as soloist which is all seen on her Pinterest Board (actual contracts, newspaper articles stating this). There is much no one has bothered to actually read about her to fix this page.
 * 'I hope this is helpful to see the misinformation and lack of information? Maybe follow the obituary the credited and sourced Hollywood Reporter did on her in addition to all the sourced and credited newspaper articles, interviews, critics, reviews that can be seen and downloaded from her Pinterest Opera Page and Pinterest Movie Page may help.
 * '''And what about the top vocal coaches she studied with? The great Lotte Lehmann, Edwin McArthur who worked with her a year to prepare for her for European tour in 1961, and Richard Lert, Sir Thomas Beecham and what about the newspaper stating she was offered to join La Scala in Milan? Or She being signed as first soprano at Teatro Colon in Buenos Aires one of the top opera houses in the world, and signed with multiple Symphony Orchestras as soloist which is all seen on her Pinterest Board (actual contracts, newspaper articles stating this). There is much no one has bothered to actually read about her to fix this page.
 * 'I hope this is helpful to see the misinformation and lack of information? Maybe follow the obituary the credited and sourced Hollywood Reporter did on her in addition to all the sourced and credited newspaper articles, interviews, critics, reviews that can be seen and downloaded from her Pinterest Opera Page and Pinterest Movie Page may help.

I have copied this here, because it will get a larger audience here. Theroadislong (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. It was clear from The Hollywood Reporter article that the person they obtained the information from was Sabrina Pires; the subject's daughter. She is also the same person arguing in the above thread. I do not believe that the obit was properly fact checked and that many of the claims of Ms. Pires about her mother have been parroted back by the reporter in the obit without doing due diligence to check the accuracy of the claims. We have already found numerous errors and misrepresentations by this person in other cases when checking against records in other published sources (such as the false claim that she performed with the Metropolitan Opera who has no record of her performing with the company at all in its complete performance archive; and the exagerations of the extent of her mothers film career which was in reality very minimal in terms of the actual screen time and spoken lines in films). In short, I would not trust the obit as a completely accurate portrayal nor do I consider the WP:COI comments above to be reliable. If we can verify the claims being made in a truly independent source (i.e. not from Sabrina Pires or from a source that is based on an interview with Pires) than I am fine with updating the article.4meter4 (talk) 00:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Neither of those were incorrect findings. The group that she toured with purposefully named themselves in relation to the Met and had several Met stars involved. Thinking it was a part of the Met was just a normal and completely understandable misconception. None of the film career has been found to be exaggerated, since all Sabrina said was that her mother was involved in those films based on the reliable source material she had available. And she has provided all of those sources for perusal. Furthermore, you keep reinstating a claim that she says was never true (and she would know whom her own mother was married to) and we can't find any corroborating evidence for the claim in the first place. Her marrying Ravic is the sort of thing that would have gotten additional coverage of even a mention outside of a single line at the end of a Bogota-transmitted article. And yet we can find nothing. No marriage documents, no coverage of a marriage occurring, no mention even of them being husband and wife outside of this one sentence. Can it be corroborated with any evidence whatsoever? Silver  seren C 01:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Variety is a highly respected publication and I trust its veracity far more than a WP:COI editor. The credence you are giving to the subject's daughter is concerning and contradicts policy at WP:COI. Further, the lack of "marriage records" could easily be because they were married in South America. We trust independent references (which Variety is) over individuals connected to the subject. Further, the marriage provides context to the subject's involvement with this tour. Hiding the marriage is deceptive and changes the way the events are perceived in a way that is unethical. There is a pattern of deceptively editing facts to make things appear more impressive than they are. I don't think this is unintentional. Lastly, the finding was categorically incorrect. She didn't work with or for the Met. Period. The confusion by the subject's daughter just reinforces the fact that she doesn't have enough distance from the subject to be an accurate reporter of her mother's career. I get the sense that her mother probably exaggerated her achievements (many working artists do) as a way to promote herself (PR is important for working artists), and that her daughter is repeating things she was told or overheard. That's just a guess on my part, but it all comes back to the need to not base our content on information from sources that lack sufficient independence to be considered reliable. Additionally, her daughter also lacks critical judgement in evaluating primary sources. Not everything in a concert program is necessarily accurate (PR/marketing is often used in programs to sell their product over necessarily being accurate or truthful). That's why the lack of quality secondary sources on this subject from a carer long perspective is so concerning. Additionally, we lack any reviews of Preston in a major opera production in a major opera house. How can someone be a "celebrated opera singer" when we can't find a review of her in a notable opera production (by this I mean an opera production which has been part academic discourse on opera in published literature in the field; any celebrated opera singer would be in multiple productions of this kind), have no record of any recordings, or verify from an independent ref that she actually performed at some of the opera houses provided by her daughter above? Frankly, its an anathema.  4meter4 (talk) 01:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * And, as I have repeatedly pointed out, she has provided all of the sources for that. Dozens of them. You keep saying sources don't exist and seem to be purposefully not looking at any of the sources presented. The article already includes a number of reliable references to her performances at opera houses around the world. I don't know why you're so determined to view the article subject negatively, but it's clear you are putting forth no effort to actually improve the article despite readily available sources being given to do so. And instead are trying to actively push negative commentary about the article subject. Your neutrality is honestly something I seriously question, since we already know about Sabrina's COI on the subject. Silver  seren C 02:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Silver seren, respectfully I disagree with you that the sources verify the majority of her daughter's claims outside of what is currently in the article. Considering that I have added many sources to this article and content (from reliable references), I find your comment to be insulting and disingenuous and lacking in good faith. Further, critical reviews in local papers (while verifying her work) do not verify the significance of those performances. My point was we don't have any record of her in academic journal articles, major reference works on opera and opera singers, etc. You are missing what I am saying. I am pointing out the deficit of sources which evaluate Ms. Preston's career from a long term perspective. Piecing together a review here and a review here doesn't do the work of context; which is what historical/ biographical research is all about. With a lack of such literature it's hard to justify many of the claims made by Ms. Preston's daughter about the overall significance of her mother's career. Lastly, given that her mother is listed as part of the SFO chorus in published sources from the 1950s, her daughter's reaction to that content is illuminating to the problems currently at hand with WP:COI. It's not unusual for opera singers to perform in the opera chorus in their early career while also taking on roles elsewhere (and the SFO in those days had an unusual schedule where operas were staged closely together in what was akin to a bi-annual opera festival; making it very possible for artists to maintain a busy performing career elsewhere simultaneously). Angela Gheorghiu would be an example of a singer who did this. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 02:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding the significance of the roles, I would not take the daughter’s claims at face value. For instance, Stern conducted several operettas featuring Preston in the lead, such as Camille in "The Merry Widow", Marietta in "Naughty Marietta", Micaëla in "Carmen", Gianetta in "Gondoliers" "New Moon", and "Der Fledermaus" - Micaëla is definitely not a lead character in Carmen (she probably gets the least stage time of all female characters), so I doubt any RS printed this (also, it’s die Fledermaus). Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 09:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with that assessment of the role of Micaëla. Micaëla is the only female character with a long aria besides Carmen. "Je dis que rien m'epouvante" is six and a half minutes long, and when done well (which it so often isn't sadly), a show stopper. While Mercédès and Frasquita get more stage time, they don't have much solo singing to do in their musical numbers with Carmen (singing almost entirely as a trio; with less than two minutes of solo singing in the whole opera between them), and have no arias. I would consider Micaëla the second largest role for a woman in that opera. It's a more substantial part vocally than either Mercédès or Frasquita, and her character has more drama in relation to the opera's plot. Regardless, that opera would never be labeled/listed as an operetta so I agree that there is something wonky with that statement. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Filmography
I removed this section, it was unsourced, the roles were minor and largely uncredited and the editor who added them is partially blocked for sockpuppetry. Theroadislong (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)