Talk:Juneteenth/Archive 3

Foreign outlook for this new holiday.
It should be noted that this isn't some ancient holiday and has only existed for a year. Juneteenth to anyone who doesn't know what it is (which is 99% of the world) would be presumed to be June 13th, not 19th, also. So some explanation as to why it's called Juneteenth when MANY teen numbers are in June would be helpful for those of us who are not American. It's a very American-centric thing, so it's perplexing to us. No one would think it's not the first Juneteenth but the SEVENTH teen in June that Americans are talking about. But further the confusion is that when researching this topic I'm told that this is a hundred year old celebration+ - when I know it isn't, no one I know has EVER heard of it before last year and suddenly we're bombarded with it all over the world. I get it's a bit Hallmark Holiday, but these things are confusing to foreigners wanting to find out more, it really doesn't help everything just claims it's from the 1800's when it's from 2021. 2001:8003:37B8:D900:5068:9C28:A404:F891 (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Read the article, please, it answers your questions. Slatersteven (talk) 09:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not very well. Why not simply state what the date is right at the beginning? HiLo48 (talk) 10:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "Juneteenth is a federal holiday in the United States commemorating the emancipation of enslaved African Americans. Deriving its name from combining "June" and "nineteenth", it is celebrated on the anniversary of General Order No. 3, issued by Major General Gordon Granger on June 19, 1865". Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for demonstrating that the actual date is NOT stated. The first sentence should simply say "Juneteenth is a federal holiday on June 19 in the United States..." HiLo48 (talk) 10:28, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * NO, rather we say what it means, which was kind of the question asked, why is it called Junteenth. Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't understand Americans. We need to say BOTH!!!!! This is simple. If you are going to write about a holiday, from scratch, FIRST, you state what what date it happens on, THEN, you explain why it's on the date, and why it has the name it has. I have had resistance to this obvious approach from Americans before, and I have no idea why. HiLo48 (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not American, and have no issue understanding that "it is celebrated on the anniversary of General Order No. 3, issued by Major General Gordon Granger on June 19, 1865" means it is celebrated on June 19th. But fine if you really think we need to say it another way go ahead. Slatersteven (talk) 09:51, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Spread of Juneteenth.
Would it be fair to say that prior to 2021 less than 1% of people would have ever have heard of this? And less than 1% of that 1% would have 'celebrated' it as a holiday? I'm struggling here, I am starting to see this as revisionistic history being written into reality, or rather, reality being edited in real time by media and pseudoacademics online.

As an African-American I've never heard of this, yet it's been given this big back story as if somehow every black family I know is a pariah for not celebrating and knowing it. But it's a new invention that was pushed in 2021. Prior to that not one single person except maybe the most politically ideologically possessed black panther plotting a train station bombing to get back at the white man would ever have known it's name. I mean even it's name is an absurdity. June - teenth would imply the first teenth in June so June 13th. Nope. Maybe 14th? Nope. 15th, the third teenth in June? Nope. 19th. Abject nonsense.

It FEELS like a racist creation to make us seem like we're all low IQ. I can't be the only person who this doesn't sit right with, it truly feels like agitprop at this point invented just to gaslight the majority for the sake of a teeny tiny minority. 2001:8003:37B8:D900:50FD:2CD8:8930:2A5B (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Do wp:rs say this? Slatersteven (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This is at least the second time someone from an IP outside the US has posted a WP:NOTAFORUM issue (and with practically the same talking points). This is not the place for IPs to talk about their feelings, to blog about how you do or don't remember or know things, or denigrate others (some living) with no basis at all. This article identifies three women and at least one man by name as movers/advocates for the holiday on the state and federal level.  And the IP appears to be nothing but lying about them.  This post should have been removed per NOTAFORUM and in at least one case BLP (because at least one is still alive).  Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:47, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

pandering has a negative connotation?
Should the lead paragraph of this entry read " when President pandering Democrat Joe Biden signed... " ? This is potentially divisive and does not meaningfully add to the topic. 77.250.251.151 (talk) 13:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No, and it was reverted. Slatersteven (talk) 13:50, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2023
I request an edit about the flag for Juneteenth. Many Afro Americans are now requesting the Juneteenth Flag created by Ben Haith be used to represent Juneteenth rather than the Pan African flag which is incorrect. Please update the page to mention the Juneteenth Flag and please link the Juneteenth Flag article. It will help give the flag recognition. Asahae (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Sources? Slatersteven (talk) 13:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection-unlocked.svg Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. You can add this your self, if you cite your sources.  RudolfRed (talk) 01:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

New Jersey was the last slave state.
The New Jersey Historical Commission, a State agency, at https://nj.gov/state/historical/his-2021-juneteenth.shtml, gives this sad fact:

(quote) Slavery’s final legal death in New Jersey occurred on January 23, 1866, when in his first official act as governor, Marcus L. Ward of Newark signed a state Constitutional Amendment that brought about an absolute end to slavery in the state. In other words, the institution of slavery in New Jersey survived for months following the declaration of freedom in Texas. (end quote)

Of course the Thirteenth Amendment was ratified December 6,1865, so the New Jersey amendment was a formality. JoeBrennan (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Elsewhere in Wikipedia it says that slavery ended with the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment, which had the effect of freeing the remaining slaves in Kentucky and Delaware. These articles don't mention New Jersey.  I'm seeing this at Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, and at End of slavery in the United States.  So as you suggest the New Jersey law was a formality of sorts. — Mudwater (Talk) 21:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

This entry is wrong
Juneteenth commemorates the rectification of an injustice. It recognizes the two and a half year delay in the emancipation of slaves in Galveston, Texas through the activation of Union Troops against Texan slave holders who continued to hold free blacks as slaves in violation of the Emancipation Proclamation.

https://nmaahc.si.edu/explore/stories/historical-legacy-juneteenth Jlaramee (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you mean this line "Deriving its name from combining June and nineteenth, it is celebrated on the anniversary of the order, issued by Major General Gordon Granger on June 19, 1865, proclaiming freedom for slaves in Texas"? Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

In the history section, shouldn’t the full story of Granger's order be shown, as this is unclear. Even his full name is not given, and this is the section that should show the whole history. Very confusing, especially if someone just wanted to read the history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.192.29 (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The history section already has his full name (as does the intro). What do you mean by "whole history"? What precisely is not there? Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:00, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

End of the Civil War
I was taught that "Juneteenth" was when official word of the end of the Civil War reached Galveston --- not word about the 13th Amendment (which I was taught only freed slaves in Union held territories and in the North). 2600:8800:395:B000:964:ADCE:B322:9BC3 (talk) 10:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Source? Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

America’s Second Independence Day
There is a link saying "By Whom?" (not "Citation Needed") referring to the phrase "America's Second Independence Day" that goes to Wikipedia's "Weasel Words" webpage for unsupported attributions at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions. However, if you Google "America's Second Independence Day" you will find the first example of a source using this phrase is Duke University at https://today.duke.edu/2023/06/juneteenth-celebrating-americas-second-independence-day. I thought that maybe someone on this discussion board would be able to update this reference. Thank you. Afrenning (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Perfectly reasonable request. I'm sure Duke is all very good, but let's utilize the Smithsonian and National Geographic, shall we? BusterD (talk) 20:19, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Earlier citation of "Juneteenth"
An earlier citation of the word "Juneteenth" comes from the Brenham (Texas) Weekly Banner, June 25 1891, https://www.newspapers.com/image/68044659/?terms=%22juneteenth%22&match=1. Maybe somebody could add this. 2607:FEA8:1FDF:2000:C5C7:3E03:8893:4D14 (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah this what I don't understand. Why are we calling this Holiday Juneteenth? It's clearly racist to call it Juneteenth. Your source not only points to a more specific origin for the word than the unsourced wikipedia origin but your sources author uses the word to make fun of black people. Has there ever been any real discussion of what this Holiday should be called and why? 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

A lossy combination
"[...] deriving its name from combining June and nineteenth." It's a lossy combination, though, isn't. Personally I would mention that unfortunate fact in this article. Anyone who doesn't already know what date the holiday falls on won't be able to tell for sure from the holiday's name (it might fall on June 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, or 19th). While you're at it, I'd also mention that some people think that "Juneteenth" is a too-casual and sloppy--and therefore disrespectful--moniker for a remembrance of the level of gravitas of this anniversary. And if you need a citation for that, you can use this topic. 2601:600:8500:6A40:F92A:D74D:5861:650D (talk) 00:43, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Source? Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Juneteenth was used by whites to make fun of black people. It seems that Jubilee Day was the holiday's original name. I think it's worth having a discussion on what the origins of the word Juneteenth means instead of just making up its origins without a citation. Maybe put the holiday's real name up at the top of the page so it can be properly identified. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:43, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Emacipation?
Lincoln freed slaves in Texas on January 1, 1863. Why a national celebration of another declaration of freedom for slaves just in Texas by a lowly general? Historical discussion lacks decent reason why blacks don’t celebrate 1/1/1863. Please add to article. 107.190.222.11 (talk) 21:26, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Or why we don't celebrate the end of the civil war. Or why we don't use the enacting of the 13th Amendment. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I do think there needs to be more references to why the holiday is so controversial. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * "Controversial"?  Acroterion   (talk)   21:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

California
Not a paid holiday in California 2600:1702:3E40:6680:31A3:886D:A03:E212 (talk) 01:18, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The header photo needs attention
If it’s a pic of Milwaukee then why is the church in the background think it’s in Philly? 32.221.49.133 (talk) 08:20, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
 * NO that is just its name Philadelphia Church of God. Slatersteven (talk) 08:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Juneteenth Name
There is no proper source for how this Holiday received its name.

"Deriving its name from combining June and nineteenth..." is stated as a fact without a proper source. Someone invented the name or it originated from somewhere. Something must explain the motivations to use "Juneteenth" as the holiday's name rather than creating a name for the holiday or simply calling it June 19th. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you read the article through? The lead summarizes the sourced content. Look in the "Early Juneteenth celebrations" section, references 34, 48 and 49.  Acroterion   (talk)   21:21, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I cant read 34 because its behind a paywall. 48 and 49 only reference the word itslef. 49 is a reference to the way black people say the holday's name. In otherwords... you can infere the proper name was June Nineteenth but the author is suggesting black people are not educated enough to pronounce it correctly.
 * So, yeah I read the whole article. Nothing leads to a fact on how the holiday got its name. It seems its just a colloquial description of a Holiday that likely had a proper name and some point which was later abandoned. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:30, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Folklore is like that. It is what it is, or what it became. We can't create an origin story based on anything but the referenced fact that it was called that at the times described in the references.  Acroterion   (talk)   21:33, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah that my point though... we did create an origin story based on an assumption that juneteenth was named so by combining two words. That is the statement on the page and it is not sourced. We don't even know if it's accurate. The holiday is actually called Jubilee Day - not Juneteenth until Texas ratified it as such and then our Congress. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:38, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps just change the wording to "Juneteenth possibly received its name by combining..." even though this cannot be substantiated. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 21:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There is an academic source for that sentence in lead, placed at the end of that info, so your premise seems incorrect. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)