Talk:Jung Myung-seok/Archive 1

IMPORTANT NOTICE: THE KOREAN POLICE POST NUMBERS MIGHT CHANGE. THIS MEANS THE LINKS TO THE POLICE FORUM MAY BECOME DYSFUNCTIONAL. IF THEY DON'T WORK LOOK AT THE LIST OF POSTS WITH SIMILAR NUMBERS TO FIND IT. Or use the media references instead. Don't accuse us of lying or start deleting things if the links no longer go to the right message. I'd like to keep this at the top until I know they don't change.

my (rb) edits
Some things:

- THE POST NUMBERS ON THE KOREAN POLICE FORUM MIGHT CHANGE. I suspect the post numbers change sometimes. The number displayed on the index (the listing of the posts) is different to the number displayed when you read the actual post, for example. Because of the Javascript, I don't know how to directly link to the posts. Don't delete the sections if you can't find the posts. I will try to find a way to link to them "directly". I have an idea.

- EDIT: OK I figured out how to link to them directly. However, when I do this, the second one doesn't display properly in Firefox for me. So see it I have to either use Explorer or copy the text which is hidden (by selecting the main text and dragging down, the hidden stuff is underneath the main text) into notepad. It is also a question if the links will work forever, but we will see.

- The article uses both spellings of organisation/organization. I use organisation but I left some as organization from previous edits. I like consistency but I don't know how to deal with this issue.

- I will add more references later. They are coming..

- Is there a better way to make the quote (currently the 4th reference)? I tried using the quote tags but it put too much emphasis on it.

- There is only one supportive view website. That's not my bias. I couldn't find any others. Even that one is old and outdated. All the others have been removed. gacp.org was the main one, but it's gone.

-rb (RB972)

I made more edits. I'll still add more citations. I don't care if I have to add 300 references or 17 citations to any particular sentence to get it protected from Providence members deleting things recklessly. The truth will not be suppressed.

Someone blanked the article and discussion pages again. I brought back the article and it seems an op brought back the discussion page (thanks!!)

I'm starting to get the hang of wiki. I'm planning on added a section on American Providence, cleaning up and adding to the "controversial teachings" which is now written much weaker than desired (the problem is I can "cite" my own memory that these teachings are accurate but there's no archive of sermons that I can cite. I do know how I can find citations however.) Also adding a quote section and looking at the image copyright. Also to add some more old news articles.

Some consistency problems with the external links. The April media is in a different format to the others as I don't know the titles of them. Whoever translated them didn't translate the titles! Another appearance issue is the quotes inside the references as the article is too big to link to the whole thing. For the links to Serket's writings, I didn't quote, as his pages are very short. I might poke around other wiki pages for ideas if no one can bring something up.

I want a reference for the unification similar to jung's teachings statement. I added the citation needed to my own work. I may produce a page showing the comparison myself to cite.

RB972 18:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Purpose of page
I added content to this page instead of a simple redirect because it is the name English speaking people are more likely to search for (rather than his real name of Jung Myung Seok). They probably won't know his real name. I know I can redirect but I want it to come up in google when someone searches for Joshua Jung. RB972 00:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fair enough, but in that case both pages should mirror each other, which they don't. Uptional 00:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it so. It needs the keywords to come up, to provide a description in the search, and I suspect search engines may discriminate against small webpages. RB972 05:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That could be, but how shall we prove it? I suggest that we request a third party to judge this case. In the meantime, I request that the page remain blank. Uptional 22:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, reverted the page back to blank, as it should remain, OR identically reflect the corresponding page of the same biography. A half page with half information is worse than no page with no information, as there already exists a page under dispute. Uptional 08:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Added the 'disputed' tag so that there is indication that this article is a part of the main article biography, which is under dispute. Uptional 09:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be inaccurate. The facts are not disputed, even by you. You've already put the tag on the other page.

RB972 10:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

More deletions
Wow the main page and discussions were just deleted again. These cult guys sure are nuts. This is an encyclopedia, it deals with facts. either Jung has been charged with rape or he hasn't. The Korean police said he has been charged. I think they are a more crdible source of such info than some fanatic who thinks Jung is the Messiah.

Update, it's all back, thanks RB.

And cult guy, didn't Jung tell you guys to stay away from us evil Satan possessed weeds? [this was written by CaptP -rb]

vandal blocked
Trustjms has been blocked. I wonder who he is. Ralph?

Great job wiki admins!!

He had deleted the majority of the page as well as the talk page 6 or 7 times in little over 24hrs.

Providence members are free to contribute to the article, but deleting statements with beyond doubt sources is vandalism. By definition, "international fugitive" means someone who is wanted in Interpol's record, and Korean Police forum is a 100% accurate source to confirm if he is in the records or not. You guys may think that it is just his "celebrity" (just how many people have you met that already knew about him before you told them about him?) and celebrities tend to get rumours spread about them (never mind that something isn't a rumour anymore if it is confirmed by the police and the news articles are not in tabloids but real news agencies), or those poor women were paid, or angry they weren't allowed to marry, or we are jealous, or some other excuse. Fine, whatever. You are free to add "the general consensus in Providence is that the women who claim rape and the reporters who write about it are evil devil spawns whose sole purpose in life is to destroy God's history". Go ahead. But it is FACT that:


 * he is a wanted fugitive for the charge of serial-rape
 * well over a dozen (probably several dozen if you include korean+chinese+japan+tai+english+etc) women has testified they have had sex with him and wish it didn't happen (either rape or they regret they didn't resist and claim mind control, if that isn't rape as well)

Those things will remain, and always remain, for ever and ever on wiki. If you try to remove it, you will be blocked. THIS IS A WARNING TO ALL PROVIDENCE MEMBERS.

I know it must be so frustrating to you what we are doing. You are so convinced that you are "God's chosen people", "Israel 2". And we are Satan-possessed demons trying to destroy God's work. You see the world in black and white. You are the good, we are the bad. It must be frustrating to know that people who would otherwise be "evangalised" will see pages like this and turn away. They will die because of us, you think. And criticism of your "living Lord" hurts even more than personal criticism. I know that. I know your whole world is built around this man, and if you ever thought "maybe the claims really are true?" then everything would start to fall apart around you. But wiki is for displaying the facts, regardless of mine or your personal feelings about those facts. And they are the facts.

RB972 02:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

hong kong section
Thanks a lot whoever added it. When I added the country section I hoped that people would add the details as you have. This is the original post:

The church in Hong Kong is named "月明教會" and has been there for a few years. The church targeted on university students and actively solicited Christian students to join in the campuses. A former member told to the press that in a meeting, Joshua leaded the progress through webcam. The church also offered his photos to the folks and asked them to worship it. The member finally left the church, but he was kept threatening and annoyed by student members.

Though the church has been in Hong Kong for years, the low-keyed development makes it fairly infamous until its exposure to the public. To further its influence on the youth, the organization tried to work for the society and founded a web page. The page was deleted in May of 2005.

It is believed that the church consists of about 100 members, mostly students from two colleges of medicine, and several lecturers. Both HKU and CUHK left no comment to it.

There is one recognized case in which parents of a female student seeking help from local religion groups. The girl's behavior changed completely after joining the church and never back home. By contrast, she developed herself to church's development and donated all her income for it. Her family found a photo of Joshua in her wallet.

For further information please see: http://hk.news.yahoo.com/061001/10/1tyax.html

I hope you don't mind I improved the English and made it consistent with the rest of the site (dot points for universities, joshua to jung). Also I changed your further information into a cite as it is important everything is down in the special wiki format so that the admins will protect us from members trying to delete things as they've done in the past.

RB972 16:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The church in Hong Kong doesn't have an English name as I know. If you want to translate it, translate it into "The Bright Moon Church", which has the meaning of the original Chinese name, thanks a lot!

to PJ
1) Comments made relating to the authors of a wikipedia article on the article themselves are inappropriate by wiki guidelines. Your comment on the main page of the article might be considerd a personal attack by wiki guidelines, implying that Peter's edits should be disregarded and for reasons that included at least three false statements.

2) I argue the wikiquotes are fair use.

3) Peter contributed very little of the current article.

RB972 08:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider your removal of "attempt to" in the phrase "and he is taking steps to disprove the charges" is indicative of bias. I also consider your statement "his legal team has successfully defended him in court for the past 7 years despite of his absence" to be misleading, as he cannot be convicted without his presence. Furthermore you deleted my factual statement that he refuses to confront the law accusations directly by giving himself up to authorities, despite what your comment "is taking steps to disprove the charges" implies, therefore a necessary addition if you insist of having "is taking steps to disprove the charges". Finally the use of the word despite is inaccurate as it implies it is harder for him to be defended in court if he runs from it; this is wrong because the charges will not be evaluated fully until he is caught.

RB972 15:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)