Talk:Junije Palmotić

Dear Ragusino
You're adding Italianicized (not Romance/Dalmatian) names and surnames of people who never used them! I laughed my ass seeing Bartolomeo Kasich !!!! When you're copying from Italian sources, at least investigate and inform yourself who are the personae in question. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ivan
See the book * (1802) Notizie istorico-critiche sulle antichita storia e letteratura de' Ragusei, Author Francesco Maria Appendini, pg. 235 *

Not my intentions, revert and slavic to romance names, but see the old source, my family is from Ragusa/Dubrovnik, old Ghetaldi-Gondola/Getaldic-Gundulic, my great-grand father have a body guard with the surname Stambuk. best regards! Ivan, please don`t forget the Dalmatian roots, romance-slavic roots, for a good future to the region! Saludos.


 * LOL! :D But the problem is, that there are no Slavic names in that book at all (at least I don't see them), and author appears to have "Italianicized" even the names of people that were not nobility, and likely didn't had Romance name equivalent.. --Ivan Štambuk (talk)


 * The book is old. The book is Italian. Naturally it uses Italian name versions. Even modern Italian uses its own versions of foreign names (Zagabria, Spalato, etc...). Please explain this: how does this source prove anything other than that fact?
 * Every time you actually start talking you find yourself unable to continue a civil discussion due to a lack of logical arguments, "M'Lord Gondola" --  DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Try to understand that, while the book is a good source, it is not a factor in deciding upon a name version. We are discussing English language use, not Italian language use, my liege... -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Appendini lived in the Repubblica, Francesco Maria Appendini (November 4, 1768 – 1837) was an Italian historian and philologist born at Poirino near Turin. Educated at Rome, he took orders and was sent to Ragusa, where he was appointed professor of rhetoric. When the French seized Ragusa, Napoleon placed Appendini at the head of the Ragusan academy. After the Austrian occupation he was appointed principal of a college at Zara, where he died in 1837. Appendini's chief work was his Notizie Istorico-critiche sulle Antichità, Storia, e Letteratura de' Ragusei (1802-1803). He wrote the book, "Grammatica della lingua illirica" 1828, *. Be an a Gondola decent is not for the fools, i` very proud of my ancestors!, if you not!, is your problem!.


 * Perhaps m'lord high councilor would care to explain how does all this information change the fact that the book is not written in English, but in Italian? (Your ancestry is meaningless in these considerations, as is mine, the only possible reason one could bring it up is to brag, whether falsely or not...) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

My serf, italian language was the oficial in the Republic, the dialect eas the slavonian, Apenddini wrote the books when the Republic exist!, show me a source with the names in croatian in the XVIII and XIX century.


 * Here is an excerpt from Palmotić's work itself: Gomnaida, spjevana po gosparu Đonu Đora Palmotića, vlastelinu dubrovačkomu.. Since the text of that (riducolous!) poem itself contains Italian redention of one Ragusan House ("di Sorgio"), it would be reasonable to assume that Matica hrvatska when publishing it originally in the edition Stari pisci hrvatski under the supervision of superb philologists like Vatroslav Jagić did nothing similar to "secondary Slavicization", i.e., this is the original itself, it follows that writers themselves (and Junije Palmotić is primarily notable as writer) spoke and referred to each other exclusively in their "Slavonic" variants of names.. Latin and Italian pieces (like the biography of J.P. written by Gradić) use exclusively "Romance" names like Junius Palmotta on the other hand.
 * Since WP should follow the usual English naming convention, and that seems to be Slavic (even Italian WP has Junije Palmotić), it should really be proven first, considering how "touchy" this topic is, that Italian/Romance names have any kind of usage in English to put them in the running text (i.e. not just mention them in the lead). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Once again: Lord Gondola, the book is written IN ITALIAN. What relevance does it have to the English usage of the family's name?
 * (I refuse to go into the question of the official language of the Ragusan Republic. Both Croatian Dalmatian and Italian/Dalmatian were used, while the ruling families and the merchants probably knew both languages, 95% of the population spoke Croatian in 1809. There was no "official language of Ragusa".) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 21:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The dialect name never was Croatian, is a modern concept, the dialect was called "Illirico", "Illirian", "Slavonian", and Ragusa was merchants city, in the same way of Venetia, (they called the dialect Veneto until today, not italian).


 * 1) The exact contemporary historic name of the Croatian language is completely irrelevant to these considerations. It is the language we know as "Croatian" in modern times, and that fact is beyond any discussion. If you are suggesting that the Croatian language did not exist until it received that particular name you are insulting the millenia-old cultural heritage of the Croatian people, and are probably not knowledgeable enough to discuss this matter, oh noble-born.
 * 2) "Ragusa was merchants city". So what? Does that make it Italian?
 * I do not see why you are telling me this, your excellency... try to concentrate on what we are talking about, Wikipedia is not a forum. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ragusino, Illyrian meant Croatian back then. That appellative was used by Čakavian, Štokavian and Kajkavian writers for ~3 centuries, referring to supra-dialectal form of language. From the dictionaries of Dubrovnik lexicographers themselves: Jakov Mikalja's dictionary Blago jezika slovinskoga (Dubrovnik, 1649):
 * hrrivat, Hervat; Croata; Illyricus, i. Croata; ae
 * hrrivacia, Hervatska zemglja; Croatia; Illyris, dis. Illyricum, ci, Croatia;
 * From pre-Illyrian-movement (when the term Illyrian referred to all South Slavs, or West South Slavs), Joakim Stulli's, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum (Dubrovnik-Budim, 1801):
 * Illyrice - Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski
 * More information evailable here, or here, on why the term Illyrian was used and how it spread (everyone mimicked their predecessor). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Name
Gbooks hits has "Giunio Palmotta" (55); "Junius Palmotta" (32); "Junije Palmotić" (25).--Z oupan 19:32, 16 September 2016 (UTC)