Talk:Junker (Prussia)

General comments
Should the phrase ex post be ex post facto? &mdash; dino

"ex post", I should think as in, "with hindsight" Max

---
 * "their peasants worked for starvation wages, with nearly no rights."
 * "Regarded as reactionary"
 * "they were ferociously anti- liberal"

These statements are highly POV and quite unfair.


 * "who awarded the chancellorship to Adolf Hitler in 1933"

It should be noted that most Junkers, including president Hindenburg, were anti-nazis, and had little sympathy with Hitler and his South German/Austrian gang. Nico 20:47, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hindenburg, in 1933 was much too senile to be able to grasp what's going on. He wanted anyone non-republican. And he did make Hitler chancellor, by the recommendation of von Schleicher and Papen. As for the first one, you're right. Should read: "...for no wages at all". They were reactionary. They hated all forms of liberalism. Heck, they didn't even like Bismarck! Why do you keep defending this particular kind of people?

Max

Why not? I'm a Junker myself, at least on my mother's side. And I'm proud of it, of our culture and our glorious Kingdom of Prussia. Nico 22:16, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

<mumbles to himself: Washington kept quasi-serfs too, and he's considered to be the founder of the free world, and you've always liked the color blue, and red, especially gushing out of French youngster's chests. and Fritz II wasn't as bad as his many bloody and unjustified wars may seem and the idea that would-be Prussian behavior lead directly to Hitler is all a modern whim, and Mrs. Steinbach is a very modest woman, and we were actually quite nice to the Polish 39-45, and the Order didn't kill thousands of Lithuanians, that's a conspiracy theory maintained by communists...> : Yup, Prussia And Everything That Went With It (tm) rocked. - German nazi bandit "were actually quite nice to the Polish 39-45"; - chauvinistic German nazi mind in bloom — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.186.219.233 (talk) 23:24, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

'Von'
The word 'von' is never capitalized in German names. Moreover, it's not an "appellation". It's simply the German equivalent of French "de". In linguistic terms, it belongs to the word after it, eg Otto von Bismarck literally means 'Otto from Bismarck'. It also quite meaningless to say someone was a 'von': it's like saying De Gaulle was a 'de'.


 * I am not sure if this is true.
 * In the Dutch language it works like this:
 * Otto van Bismarck   [normal]
 * Bismarck, van, Otto [as in phonebook]
 * Dr. Van Bismarck    [when omitting first name]
 * So, only in the last example, 'Van' or 'Von' is capitalized.
 * And I assume it works the same way in German.
 * --Tristan Laurillard 17:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point, except it's "von Bismarck," not "van Bismarck."--Mcattell 19:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, except it's "von Bismarck," not "van Bismarck."--Mcattell 19:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between Dutch and German. The Dutch "van", which indeed in circumstances is capitalized, means usually "from". So "Van Oirschot" means that the forebear who took that name (often during the Napoleontic period) came from Oirschot, a village in Brabant. But noble families quite often also have "van" in their (double barreled) names: Van Nispen tot Sevenaer, Van der Duyn van Maasdam, Van den Bosch (which is also a 'commoner's' name). Often, not always: e.g. Bentinck is definitely a noble family, but has no 'van' to it. The German 'von' is, as far as I know, only used in names of the nobility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.204.178.214 (talk) 15:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Other Famous Junkers
Michael von Faulhaber was not a Junker. (He was Bavarian, and born a 'commoner') see http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/f/faulhaber_m1.shtml

Ludendorff
This is a discussion that was carried on User:Talk pages of wheeler and andyL. I (Wheeler) moved them here for cataloguing.

Cite your sources is a Wikipedia policy Please do so on your revert on Junkers please. Book and page number Please.WHEELER 17:04, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * The Encyclopedia Britannica article on Ludendorff states "Ludendorff was the son of an impoverished landowner and cavalry captain. His mother was a member of an aristocratic military family"AndyL 19:42, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ludendorff's mother was a "von". AndyL 19:49, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I put the quote back in BUT CHANGED IT TO SOLELY THE VON word. His father was a landowner put only large estate landowners in Prussia were given the title Von. I do not much know about German titles or how they are passed but he could not be a Junker without the title Von. WHEELER 17:04, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * According to Encyclopedia Britnnica's article on Ludendorff "His mother was a member of an aristocratic military family."

Landowner does not mean Junker. Only the holders of the Largest estates were, And I do believe that also the title must be given. He refused that title. I also read the article. Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn is an Austrian and a "Von" and he should now what he is talking about.WHEELER 19:47, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Other sources state "His mother was the aunt of Empress Alexandra"AndyL 19:55, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ludendorff's mother was Clara von Tempelhoff, the daughter of a prominent Junker family. I know you have a lot emotionally invested in the premise that no Junker supported Hilter but you really should not let your emotions interfere with the facts. AndyL 20:00, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've already cited one source, Encyclopedia Britannica, and now I'll cite a second [url]http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/17jun/mencken.htm[/url] a biography of Ludendorff in the Atlantic Monthly. Again don't let your wishful thinking interfere with the facts, WHEELER. AndyL 20:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, I've told you that Ludendorff's mother was Clara von Tempelhoff and cited my source. What is your evidence to the contrary? If you can disprove the fact that Ludendorff's mother was a Junker than do so by telling me who his mother was. AndyL 20:12, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Neither one of us is an expert on German titles, nobility or Junkers. But it does remain that he was not a "von" as most American and English books have him and that is NPOV historical fact. Von Kuenhelt said he wasn't a Junker but we can wait on this until further confirmation from an expert.WHEELER 19:51, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Here's another source;
 * Erich Ludendorff wurde am 9. April 1865 in Kruschewnia bei Posen geboren, als drittes von sechs Kindern des Gutsbesitzers August Wilhelm Ludendorff und dessen Ehefrau Klara Jeanette Henriette von Tempelhoff.

http://www.hohewarte.de/MuM/Jahr2000/ELudendorff0007.html AndyL 20:15, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * genius, perhaps, but not a Junker. Das Junkertum, indeed, is on its last legs in Germany—not by revolution, as our newspapers would have us believe, but by natural processes. The war, in its first months, well nigh exterminated the Junkers of to-morrow; to-day you will find thousands of architects, professors, lawyers, business men, in officers' boots. And in every other direction they yield to the pressure of the advancing commonalty—even in the Foreign Office. Hindenburg, true enough, belongs to the old clan,—the Beneckendorffs were officers in the fifteenth century,—but the two leaders next in rank to him, namely Mackensen and Ludendorff, are both commoners, Mackensen's grandfather, it is said, was a butcher; Ludendorff's was a merchant in Stettin. Mackensen did not get the right to put 'von' before his name until the Kaiser began to admire him, nine or ten years ago. As for Ludendorff, he has not got it yet. All the bulletins from Great Headquarters are signed simply,—


 * This is from section IV of the site you mentioned. It looks like one is not a Junker if you don't have the Von. Maybe German nobility does not pass from Mother to son only Father to son, I don't know.WHEELER 20:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The fact remains his mother was a von and a Junker. Ludendorff would have been a "commoner" in the same sense that the children of Princess Anne are "commoners". IE in a strict sense only, as far as class politics are concerend however the royal family considers Princess Anne's children "one of them" and the Junkers thought of Ludendorff as "one of them" otherwise he would not have achieved his position in the general staff. AndyL 20:34, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I am going with what I read. At least I cite sources.WHEELER 20:06, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Stauffenberg, as a South German, was definitely not a Junker; nor was Kuehnelt-Leddihn.

. . . probably derived from
I read : "'It is probably derived from the German words Junger Herr [...]'" Yes, but to not confuse things, let's say: derived from [ jung / jong / jonk / young ] That -er in Junger, is a grammer addition that has nothing to do with the root of various versions of young. Furthermore, the word Junger does not need to be capitalized. German capitalizes all nouns. And junger here is an adjective.

Pruserania?
"From Brandenburg eastward, however, — and especially in the Pruserania, — practically all of the land was long ago gathered into great estates"

Is "Pruserania" some hodge-podge of Prussia and Pomerania? Olessi 17:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Removed Military History Tag as article is not within project's scope. --dashiellx (talk) 10:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Not "often" called "Eastelbia"
Moving this to Talk for now: "- lands which are often also called "Eastelbia" (Ostelbien in German - the land east of river Elbe)." -- Only 75 Google hits for "Eastelbia [minus]Wikipedia"; thus not "often called" this. "Ostelbien" may be a common expression in German, but that is a different discussion. -- 201.37.229.117 (talk) 12:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Junker?
Why are von Lossow and von Kahr being mentioned. They came from the (Kingdom of) Bavaria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.206.15 (talk) 18:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul
Back to the drawing board on this one.

Major problems result from a lack of precision and focus in much of the material. The last paragraph, for example, comes out of nowhere; it should either be scrapped, or reworked & absorbed earlier in the article. There is too much the author assumes we already know, or will infer, resulting in much confusion and misinterpretation.Drichter53 (talk) 21:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Hitler ignored the Junkers?
"However, Hitler mostly ignored the Junkers as a whole during his time in power, taking no action against them and no action in their favour."

This statement does not make sense to me. Hitler had extensive dealings with many Junkers, most notably Field Marshall Hindenburg and his son, Oskar just to name two. Oskar directly benefited from a January 1933 meeting with Hitler (who is widely believed to have blackmailed him with divulging his family's estate tax evasion problems and the Hindenburg's involvement in the Osthilfe scandal.) Hitler came to power through manipulating an old Junkers. Aside from that, I guess, he mostly ignored them. Nickrz (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Hitler ignored the Junkers?
"However, Hitler mostly ignored the Junkers as a whole during his time in power, taking no action against them and no action in their favour."

This statement does not make sense to me. (lengthier prior statement retracted)Nickrz (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

"The expression descending from the disputes ... was perpetuated as a general denotation..."
Can someone tell me what this means??? "The expression descending from the disputes over the domestic policies of the German Empire was perpetuated as a general denotation by sociologists like Max Weber and even adopted by members of the landed class themselves."

It seems like gibberish.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 18:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Geographic error in picture caption
The location of Ogrodzieniec is cited in the caption. If you go to the contemporary site you see that this area is in the historic area of East Prussia. Actual West Prussia is the Posen territory to the west. I have changed West Prussia to East Prussia in the caption.Dogru144 (talk) 20:26, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right that West Prussia is west of East Prussia, but Posen Province was south and west of West Prussia. RogerLustig (talk) 20:25, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The above town is in the modern Polish voivodeship of Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship, whose borders are contiguous with historic East Prussia.Dogru144 (talk) 20:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

"equivalent of the French valet de chambre" - if true, so what?
Are we going to list all the world's equivalents?

Doesn't relate to Junkers anymore then say the Spanish or Polish equivalents.

"valet de chambre" is meaningless to English-speaking readers.

French love spiking English-language wikis and needlessly throw in some kind of concocted French angle.

"The term was also used in several countries in the title Kammerjunker, the German and Scandinavian (Danish, Norwegian and Swedish) equivalent of the French valet de chambre" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.68.32.34 (talk) 03:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Translation
Instead of comradeship better use cooperatives. Hence the LPG becomes a co-op. http://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/cooperative — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.47.214.68 (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Problems with the list of Notable Junkers
I think there is a common mistake here between this kind of old noble families with the rest of the german nobility - ie not from the historical lands of the Kingdom of Prussia). It's not because they served in the army (WW1 and WW2) that people with the von, zu and or zum were Junkers. Most of the Junkers were lutherian and had their historical lands east of the Elbe river. Here is a few examples of mistaken people seen as Junker from this list : 2A01:CB15:806A:1E00:C051:B95D:B0E9:4CF5 (talk) 18:54, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The Stauffenberg family came from Swabia, it's between Bavaria and France, that's a hardly Junker land.
 * Franz Ritter von Hipper (admiral from WW1) was born Franz Hipper in the south of Munich, his father was a shop-keeper, he was a catholic, and was awarded a personal title of nobility by the kingdom of Bavaria, doesn't sound very Junker to me.
 * Robert Ritter von Greim (last commander in chief of the Luftwaffe) was born Robert Greim in the north of Bavaria, his father was a police captain, was a catholic and was also awarded a personal title of nobility by the kingdom of Bavaria, bad choice again here.
 * Baldur von Schirach (first youth leader of the NSDAP, convicted of crimes against humanity in the Nuremberg trials), was from a Sorbian (West Slavic, I know that's pretty ironic for a nazi) family raised to hereditary nobility in Austria in the 18th century, again that's not a Junker.
 * Franz von Papen, Erbsälzer zu Werl und Neuwerk was from a westphalian catholic family, that's not east of the Elbe.
 * Erich von Drygalski as his name indicates, was from an old Polish family, doubtful others Junkers saw him as one of them.
 * Wessel and Bernd Freiherr Freytag von Loringhoven were from a Baltic-German family established in Courland (today Latvia) their lands were outside of the kingdom of Prussia, they were not Junkers.
 * Johann von Goethe was from a family from Frankfurt am Main and made a noble in the Duchy of Saxe-Weimar in 1782, that's not even part of Prussia.
 * Hans von Seeckt was from a Pomeranian family which had lost all their lands.
 * August von Mackensen (colorful field-marshal of WW1 always with his Hussar of Death uniform) was born Mackensen and made a noble only in 1899.