Talk:Jurchen people

Picture
What is this picture? It certainly dominates the small article it's associated with. -- Zoe

Part one

 * 金之先，出靺鞨氏. 靺鞨本号勿吉. 勿吉，古肃慎地也. 元魏时，勿吉有七
 * 部：曰粟末部、曰伯咄部、曰安车骨部、曰拂涅部、曰号室部、曰黑水部、曰白
 * 山部. 隋称靺鞨，而七部并同. 唐初，　有黑水靺鞨、栗末靺鞨，其五部无闻.
 * 粟末靺鞨始附高丽，姓大氏. 李绩破高丽，粟末靺鞨保东牟山. 后为渤海，称王，
 * 传十余世. 有文字、礼乐、官府、制度. 有五京、十五府、六十二州. 黑水靺鞨
 * 居肃慎地，东濒海，南接高丽，亦附于高丽. 尝以兵十五万众助高丽拒唐太宗，
 * 败于安市. 开元中，来朝，置黑水府，以部长为都督、刺史，置长史监之. 赐都
 * 督姓李氏，名献诚，领黑水经略使. 其后渤海盛强，黑水役属之，朝贡遂绝. 五
 * 代时，契丹尽取渤海地，而黑水靺鞨附属于契丹. 其在南者籍契丹，号熟女直；
 * 其在北者不在契丹籍，号生女直. 生女直地有混同江、长白山，混同江亦号黑龙
 * 江，所谓“白山黑水”是也.
 * 金之始祖讳函普，初从高丽来，年已六十余矣. 兄阿古乃好佛，留高丽不肯
 * 从，曰：“后世子孙必有能相聚者，吾不能去也. ”独与弟保活里俱. 始祖居完
 * 颜部仆干水之涯，保活里居耶懒. 其后胡十门以曷苏馆归太祖，自言其祖兄弟三
 * 人相别而去，盖自谓阿古乃之后. 石土门、迪古乃，保活里之裔也. 及太祖败辽
 * 兵于境上，获耶律谢十，乃使梁福、斡荅刺招谕渤海人曰：“女直、渤海本同一
 * 家. ”盖其初皆勿吉之七部也.

Translated:
 * "The Mohe are the ancestors of the Jin. the Mohe were called Wuji, the Wuji lived on the land of the Sushen people. There are seven Wuji tribes: Sumo, Boduo, Anchegu, Funie, Haoshi, Heishui, Baishan. During the early Tang dynasty, the Sumo Mohe was a vassal of Koguryo and surnamed 'Da'.  Tang destroyed Koguryo, and the Sumo Mohe retreated to the to eastern mountains and estabilishes the state of Bohai, calling itself king and has writing, music, established five capitals, five governments, sixteen provinces.  The Heishui (Blackwater) Mohe were also vassals of Koguryo and sent 150,000 troops to aid Koguryo against the Tang, but they were defeated at Anshi. During the Five dynasties period the Khitans destroyed Bohai, and the Heishui Mohe became a vassals of the Khitans. The southern ones became citizens of Liao [the Khitan state] and were known as "cooked" [meaning assimilated] Jurchen, while the northern ones were not citizens of Liao and thus were called "raw" [unassimilated] Jurchens.  The "raw" Jurchen lived between the Heilongjiang River and Changbai Mountains, and so were called 'white mountain, black water.'  The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from corea ( today's south korea) . His older brother Agunai was interested in Buddhism and thus did not come with him and remained in Koryo. Their decendants were Shitumen and Digunai. When Taizhu [Wanyan Aguda] defeated Liao, Wodaci proclaimed to Bohai people "Bohai, Jurchen were originally one family" both were from seven tribes of Wuji."

--Yuje 10:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from corea ( today's south korea).
 * it dose not mean he  is a korean, back then ,    lots of Mohe  people lived   and occupied on the soil  ,  which  today became morden  north korea's territory,  , but in the originally, it owned by Mohe  people,  while, korean only own  small  territory   in  far south korea.
 * can you please explain then why they used the word korea/silla/etc if they considered them as occupiers/invaders? can you imagine a refugee from japanese occupied korea saying that he comes from japan, or  a person from a british occupied india to say that he comes from britain, or a person from tibet/hongkong/taiwan to say that he's from china? this obviously doesn't make sense  Hxbaoli (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * He didn't say they were occupiers/invaders. The issue comes down to the difference between being from a political state and being of an ethnic group. Modern examples aren't the best examples because of differences in the way people conceived of themselves in ancient vs. modern periods, but even using modern examples, it's easy to see that people who say they come from Russia are not necessarily ethnic Russians, people who say they come from China are not necessarily ethnic Chinese, etc. There were, further, political benefits for the Wanyan clan to state that they came from the lands of Silla/Goryeo and Balhae, given that their initial state was located in the territory of Balhae and they were attempting to forge an alliance with Silla/Goryeo against the Khitans. This is no different from the Khitans saying that they were 'also Jizi's people' while fighting over territory with Goryeo, and later saying that they were the descendants of Huangdi/Yandi while ruling a portion of China. Lathdrinor (talk) 20:31, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. First, we know the Jurchen language, and it is not related to Korean, it is Tungusic and it's the ancestor of the Manchu language.  See, for example, Gisaburo N. Kiyose on that topic.  Second, there's no evidence that the Barhae state was a Korean state that ruled over a Mohe population.  It was founded by refugees from Koguryo together with Mohe people, but we don't know that one group was dominant over the other.  We also don't know for certain that the Koguryo people spoke Korean--they may have spoken a continental language related to Japanese (c.f. Koguryo: the language of Japan's continental relatives).  Third, the supposed translation from Chinese above is too wrong to bear.  The translator has read Qing dynasty where the Chinese text says Jin dynasty.  The translator has read "founder" where the Chinese text says "ancestor".  As for "Hambol", the ancestor of the founder of the Jin dynasty, according to Gibert (Dictionnaire de la Mandchourie, pg 207), "According to the Chinese annals, under the reign of the emperor Renzong of the Song (1023-1063), this Han-pu [Chinese version of Hambol], originally from the Heishui horde of the Mohe, after having sojourned for a long time in Korea, regained the country of the wild Jurchens."  So even in the Chinese records he isn't considered to be Korean.24.218.25.42 18:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not say that the Korean rulers of the past came geographically from today's China?
 * if qing were korean, why did they attack korea, make it pay tribute, force it into hermit kingdom, force them to erect a humiliating stelea in their honor

Part Two
Because someone said that history book of Qing is unverifiable, I put the website that have original text of the history book of Qing (Jinshi),. In the Chinese history book, it is said that the ancestor of Jurchen came from Korean dynasty, Koryeo.
 * 金之始祖諱函普. 初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣. 兄阿古好佛，留高麗不肯從
 * The ancestor's name of Qing dynasty founder is Hambo. When he came from Goryeo, he is about 60 years older or more. Because his brother, Ago(阿古) liked Buddism, he did not follow, but stayed in Goryeo.

Jinshi is one of the reputable 25 history books of China. If anyone do not argue about this, I will put this content in the article.
 * Draft History of Qing and History of Jin are two different works. Your use of "Qing" will cause others to believe that you are referring to the Draft History, which was never declared official.  Further, "Qing" and "Jin" are two different states; your text does not distinguish them properly.  --Nlu (talk) 05:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want to quote the Book of Jin, might as well quote the entire section.
 * 金之先，出靺鞨氏. 靺鞨本号勿吉. 勿吉，古肃慎地也. 元魏时，勿吉有七
 * 部：曰粟末部、曰伯咄部、曰安车骨部、曰拂涅部、曰号室部、曰黑水部、曰白
 * 山部. 隋称靺鞨，而七部并同. 唐初，　有黑水靺鞨、栗末靺鞨，其五部无闻.
 * 粟末靺鞨始附高丽，姓大氏. 李绩破高丽，粟末靺鞨保东牟山. 后为渤海，称王，
 * 传十余世. 有文字、礼乐、官府、制度. 有五京、十五府、六十二州. 黑水靺鞨
 * 居肃慎地，东濒海，南接高丽，亦附于高丽. 尝以兵十五万众助高丽拒唐太宗，
 * 败于安市. 开元中，来朝，置黑水府，以部长为都督、刺史，置长史监之. 赐都
 * 督姓李氏，名献诚，领黑水经略使. 其后渤海盛强，黑水役属之，朝贡遂绝. 五
 * 代时，契丹尽取渤海地，而黑水靺鞨附属于契丹. 其在南者籍契丹，号熟女直；
 * 其在北者不在契丹籍，号生女直. 生女直地有混同江、长白山，混同江亦号黑龙
 * 江，所谓“白山黑水”是也.
 * 金之始祖讳函普，初从高丽来，年已六十余矣. 兄阿古乃好佛，留高丽不肯
 * 从，曰：“后世子孙必有能相聚者，吾不能去也. ”独与弟保活里俱. 始祖居完
 * 颜部仆干水之涯，保活里居耶懒. 其后胡十门以曷苏馆归太祖，自言其祖兄弟三
 * 人相别而去，盖自谓阿古乃之后. 石土门、迪古乃，保活里之裔也. 及太祖败辽
 * 兵于境上，获耶律谢十，乃使梁福、斡荅刺招谕渤海人曰：“女直、渤海本同一
 * 家. ”盖其初皆勿吉之七部也.
 * Translated:
 * "The Mohe are the ancestors of the Jin. the Mohe were called Wuji, the Wuji lived on the land of the Sushen people. There are seven Wuji tribes: Sumo, Boduo, Anchegu, Funie, Haoshi, Heishui, Baishan. During the early Tang dynasty, the Sumo Mohe was a vassal of Koguryo and surnamed 'Da'. Tang destroyed Koguryo, and the Sumo Mohe retreated to the to eastern mountains and estabilishes the state of Bohai, calling itself king and has writing, music, established five capitals, five governments, sixteen provinces. The Heishui (Blackwater) Mohe were also vassals of Koguryo and sent 150,000 troops to aid Koguryo against the Tang, but they were defeated at Anshi. During the Five dynasties period the Khitans destroyed Bohai, and the Heishui Mohe became a vassals of the Khitans. The southern ones became citizens of Liao [the Khitan state] and were known as "cooked" [meaning assimilated] Jurchen, while the northern ones were not citizens of Liao and thus were called "raw" [unassimilated] Jurchens. The "raw" Jurchen lived between the Heilongjiang River and Changbai Mountains, and so were called 'white mountain, black water.' The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from Koryo. His older brother Agunai was interested in Buddhism and thus did not come with him and remained in Koryo. Their decendants were Shitumen and Digunai. When Taizhu [Wanyan Aguda] defeated Liao, Wodaci proclaimed to Bohai people "Bohai, Jurchen were originally one family" both were from seven tribes of Wuji."
 * Yuje 10:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, quoting the entire section would have damaged Hairwizard91's POV -- but what's new about his/her taking things out of context? --Nlu (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So, quoting entire section make my saying more solid. Doesn't it? If you see the history book of Balhae or Bohei, you can find that the royal family of Bohei, which may be the Sokmal Malgal or Sumo Mohe, returned to Koryeo when it was Destroyed by Khitan. Eventually, the ancestor of Jin can be Sumo Mohe among the several Mohe if you read the context of history books of Jin and Balhae(Bohei). If you cannot find the sentence of the history bookf of Balhae, I can show you. The history book of Jin does not say anything which Mohe directly corresponds to the ancestor of Jin or Hampo.--Hairwizard91 12:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Moreover, according to the last sentence of the quotation (渤海本同一家) Koguryeo, Balhae and Koryeo are same family. Furthermore, about the ancestor of Koguryeo, the founder of Koguryeo was Joomong, and he came from Buyeo. Buyeo was a succession of Gojoseon by Haemosoo. Eventually, Gojoseon is the firstly states of Korean without no doubt. Consequently, even though Jin was not the state of Korea because of their people, language and so on, its founder came from Koryeo or its founder is Korean.--Hairwizard91 12:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The entire history is significant, because it shows that the Jurchens had a clearly claimed ethnic descent that wasn't ethnic Korean. Quoting that single line out of context to prove that the Jin and Qing dynasties are actually Korean and ignoring the rest of the passage to advance that point is dishonest. As for Hanpu, the passage doesn't state his ethnicity, but Hanpu looks like a Buddhist name, while his brother's name, Agunai (阿古乃), lookes like a phonetically spelled name, and not an ethnic Korean name. --Yuje 09:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * More details, see
 * Another history book 欽定滿洲源流考
 * From the history book of 欽定滿洲源流考 (卷七 部族)
 * In chapter 7 about races, there is a setnece like this
 * "金始祖 本從 新羅來 號完顔氏 所部稱完顔部 新羅王金姓則金之遠派出"
 * Rough translation says that...
 * "The ancestor of Jin originally came from Silla], and is called 完顔. Their place is called 完顔部. The royal family name of [[Silla or 金 came from very old ancestor of Jin"
 * It also says that the ancestor of Jin founder came from Korea.

Correcting the name of dynasty
I should modify the pronunciation and as follows: The website of "History of Jin" (金史):
 * Table of content:
 * The chapter describes the ancestor:

Jinshi or History of Jin Dynasty (1115-1234) is one of the reputable 25 history books of China.
 * 金之始祖諱函普. 初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣. 兄阿古好佛，留高麗不肯從
 * The ancestor's name of Jin dynasty's founder is Hambo. When he came from Goryeo, he is about 60 years older or more. Because his brother, Ago(阿古) liked Buddism, he did not follow, but stayed in Goryeo.

All this showed was that the Jurgens and Koreans originated from Chinese soil. Even the record of their history was written in Chinese.
 * If you are not, I'm sorry in advance. But are you User:Breathejustice with a different account? You have the exact same theories and grammar. Plus, you work on the exact same articles, with the same persistency as well! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 17:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC))
 * I have little doubt that they're the same person. However, as long as he/she sticks to a single account and reforms his/her behavior (and I think there has been a bit of an attitude improvement), he/she is OK.  --Nlu (talk) 17:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There are so many people to insist that the ancestor of Jin came from Korea. Some nationalists insist that Jin and Qing are Korean history, but I do not agree with the nationalists. Actually, I cannot interpret Chinese literature, so I did copy and paste from other sources, which you makes feel the same person. I have found in his or her webpage that User:Breathejustice is blocked--Hairwizard91 00:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC).


 * By the way, User:Ghostexorcist may agree with me, or he or she may have no opposing argument--Hairwizard91 23:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Anybody has different opinion about the origin of Jin's founder?--Hairwizard91 04:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Put in a qualifier that it is in accordance with the History of Jin, and I would have no objections. --Nlu (talk) 04:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not convinced by the judges,while the ancient leader of Jin maybe come from Silla,but it doesn't mean they are Korean.Many Jurchen tribes once lived in the nowadays Korean penisula,but finally they were consolidated and later became Manchu.Only if we enlarge the definition of Korean to other Tungusic peoples.--Ksyrie 12:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "while the ancient leader of Jin maybe come from Silla,but it doesn't mean they are Korean" - this sounds a bit silly to me. why would they want to use the word 'Silla' and make an association with korean state if this can lead to such ambiguities? it would be similar to a person from a colonized india to say that he's british...or a person from occupied korea to say that he comes from japan... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxbaoli (talk • contribs) 22:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I found something interesting in this page 金朝始祖函普族属考辨--Ksyrie 12:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * if qing were korean, why did they attack korea, make it pay tribute, force it into hermit kingdom, force them to erect a humiliating stelea in their honor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.241.53 (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Singular
The name of this article should be singular under the Naming conventions (plurals). Alan 12:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

re: Khorchin
The Khorchin are a Mongolian clan who were in close contact with the Jurchen-Manchu people throughout history. In fact, Emperor Kangxi's beloved grandmother was a Khorchin Mongol. -Andrew

Steppe Culture? Nomads?
I wonder if it is proper to compare the Jurchens so closely to the Mongols. The Jurchens were not nomads, nor did they live predominantly on the steppe, though the article makes reference to "nomadic institutions" and "steppe peoples". The Jurchen/Manchu language doesn't have much indigenous terminology for things related to the nomadic lifestyle...they even borrowed their words for "horse" and "sheep" from Mongol fairly recently. It is true that they were heavily influenced by the Mongols, but they were also quite distinct in many other respects. I also wonder if it is accurate to say "decades of a settled lifestyle eroded their pastoral identity," given that they were predominantly a sedentary people prior to the establishment of the Jin dynasty.
 * Could we have more details of the Jurchen society please?
 * yes they are nomads like mongols, their lifestyle languege etc. are more similar to the mongols. i'm mongol. and i can understand their script and titel of their Khaan in the late Qing dynastie. The officiel title of Nurhaci in manju says he is the Khaan of geren gurun (this is mongolian words and interprets as ger state, ger is house of nomads in mongolian and gurun is state, so the ancestor of manju are nomads. the Khaan sayd itself, he is the Khaan of state with people who lived in gers).if they havent mgl ancestor,i couldn't have understand their languege and script. Their description of their state says Ancun gurun (state of hunters, the chinese people maked their names in chinese with false transition (Aisiin Gio??),nomads are hunters too) also what in manju is easy to read for mgl-s. The word Jurchen can be interpreted in mgl-ian.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.120.91 (talk) 23:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Jurchens made the Han shave like the Manchus did ...
I have found evidence that the Jurchen made the Han, under the control of the Jin Empire, shave the front part of their heads. However, it is not clear whether they required them to have the queue (braided pigtail). I believe the han living in the Southern Song Dynasty were exempt from this fad.

Since the city of Kaifeng (once again) became the Jin capital in 1157, I wonder if the Kaifeng Jews were also forced to shave their heads, as they too were under control of the Jurchens? This no doubt would have been difficult since Kohen priests are forbidden to shave their heads!!! (!Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 05:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

Jurchen Hair-Dress
I just added information in the "Culture, language and society" section of the main article about how the Jurchen made the Chinese adopt their "Bald-Head" Fashion. (!Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 18:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC))

The card

 * 1) Fair use only covers illustrating the card itself, not the people who happen to be on it. See Fair use. This is an unacceptable use.
 * 2) It's "stupid" because even if it wasn't against copyright, using an illustration from a card for a Chinese general from a boardgame to show Jurchen hairstyle is really, really unprofessional. --Alivemajor 03:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Professionals use the word "stupid"? That in itself seems unprofessional. --Ghostexorcist 03:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Chinese statue
I still doubt about the relevance of the statue of Bodhisattva of a Chinese make in this article. Yes, the Chinese lived in the Jurchen controlled lands, but does this fully describe the genuine Jurchen culture? Chinese and Persians also lived in the Mongol Empire, but who shows a Chinese or Persian statue of the 13th in order to depict the ethnic Mongol culture? Uzbeks lived in Russian controlled land, but who shows an Uzbek statue to depict the ethnic Russian culture? This article is solely about the Jurchen ethnic group, it should not go beyond to cover other historically or politically connected ethnic groups. Is it so difficult to find a picture of something that would sample the genuinely Jurchen culture, made by Jurchen hands? Gantuya eng (talk) 03:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

This statue does not represent the culture of the Jurchens as an ethnic group unless it was made by Jurchen hands with Jurchen soul. I have to remove it as nobody has objected. Please restore it in this article only if it is proven that it was made by a Jurchen person. If it represents the culture of the conqured Han ethnic group, then this statue would be more relevant in an article corresponding to culture of Han ethnic group. Gantuya eng (talk) 04:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Jurchen wars with Korea and rebellion against the Liao
[Raw URLs commented out below:]

Jurchen lifestyle
[Raw URLs commented out below:]

09:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Nurhaci described Jurchen way of life
Nurhaci described the Jurchen way of life as farming land and eating grain, as opposed to Mongols livestock nomadic pastoralism and eating meat. [Raw URLs commented out below. Kindly use them to expand the article's coverage on this topic:]

Jurchen hairstyle
[Raw URLs commented out below. Kindly use them to expand the article's coverage of the Jurchen hairstyle:]

Rajmaan (talk) 21:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

eight banners, manchu identity and han bannermen
Manchu bannerrmen and Han bannermen were not categorized according to blood or ancestry or genealogy, they were categorized by their language, culture, behavior, identification and way of life. Many han bannermen were descended from Sinicized Jurchen who spoke Chinese and served the Ming, while some Manchu Bannermen were of ethnic Han origins who had defected to the Jurchens and lived among them in Jilin early on.

The Qing regarded Han Bannermen (Hanjun) and the non Bannerman Han civilian general population (Han min, Han ren, minren) as separate. People were grouped into Manchu Banners and Han Banners not based on their ancestry, race or blood, but based on their culture and the language they spoke. Han who deserted the Ming and who had moved to Nurgan (Jilin) as transfrontiersmen before 1618 assimilated with the Jurchen, practiced Jurchen culture and spoke Jurchen became part of the ethnic Manchu Banners, while descendants of sinicized Jurchen who had moved to Liaodong, adopted Han culture and surname, and swore loyalty to the Ming and spoke Chinese, eventually became part of the Han Banners after being conquered by Nurhaci after 1618.

Han who actively defected to the Jurchen in Nurgan before 1618 were called "transfrontiersman" since they crossed the frontier over into Jurchen territoty and adopted Jurchen identity and later became part of the Manchu Banners, while Han in Ming ruled Liaodong who only defected after the Qing conquered Liaoding were called "frontiersman" since they only lived on the frontier of Ming territory and they were put into the Han Banners.

Han Chinese defectors who fled from the Ming joined the Jurchens in Nurgan before 1618 were placed into Manchu Banners and regarded as Manchu, but the Ming residents of Liaodong who were incorporated into the Eight Banners after the conquest of Liaodong from the Ming from 1618-1643 were placed into the separate Han Banners (Chinese:Hanjun, Manchu: Nikan cooha or Ujen cooha), and many of these Han bannermen from Liaodong had Jurchen ancestry and were not classified as Manchu by the Qing. Geography, culture, language, occupation and lifestyle were the factors used by Nurhaci's Jianzhou Jurchen Khanate to classify people as Jurchen or Nikan, those who were considered Jurchen lived in a Jurchen lifestyle, used the Jurchen language and inhabited the eastern part were considered Jurchen, while those who were considered by Nurhaci as Nikan (Han Chinese) even though some of these Nikan were of Korean or Jurchen ancestry, were the ones who used Chinese language, and inhabited villages and towns on the west. People from both sides often moved over the cultural and territorial division between the Ming Liaodong and Jurchen Nurgan, Han Chinese soldiers and peasants would moved into Nurgan while Jurchen mercenaries and merchants would moved to Liaodong, with some lineages ended up beind dispersed on both sides, and the Jurchen viewed people as Nikan depending on whether they acted like Han Chinese. People from the same lineage like the Sinicized Jurchen Tong lineage of Fushun in Liaodong served both Ming and the Qing, with some like Tong Bunian staying as diehard Ming loyalists and others having faithfully serving the Qing conquest, after Liaodong was conquered and the Tong were enrolled in the Han Plain Blue Banner by the Qing. Eventually, the Kangxi Emperor even transferred some members of the Tong lineage like Tong Guogang and a few of his close relatives to the Manchu Bordered Yellow Banner after Tong requested the transfer.

The geographical, political, and cultural division was between the Ming Liaodong and the Jurchen dominated Nurgan, which traded and interacted with Liaodong through Fushun.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=nurgan+name&source=bl&ots=veM2nRpvpv&sig=jRtDY3VSfsNq4iHdvZquTl2c5z4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=evTiUoCOOOrLsAS80YG4Ag&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=nurgan%20name&f=false

It was Qianlong who redefined the identity of Han Bannermen by saying that they were to be regarded as of having the same culture and being of the same ancestral extraction as Han civilians, this replaced the earlier opposing ideology and stance used by Nurhaci and Hong Taiji who classified identity according to culture and politics only and not ancestry, but it was Qianlong's view on Han Bannerman identity which influenced the later historians and expunged the earlier Qing stance. Qianlong also promulgated an entirely new view of the Han Bannermen different from his grandfather Kangxi, coming up with the abstract theory that loyalty in itself was what was regarded as the most important, so Qianlong viewed those Han Bannermen who had defected from the Ming to the Qing as traitors and compiled an unfavorable biography of the prominent Han bannermen who had defected to the Qing, while at the same time Qianlong had compiled a biography to glorify Ming loyalists who were martyred in battle against the Qing called "Record of Those Martyred for Their Dynasty and Sacrificed for Purity". Some of Qianlong's inclusions and ommisions on the list were political in nature, like including Li Yongfang out of Qianlong's dislike for his descendant Li Shiyao and excluding Ma Mingpei out of concern for his son Ma Xiongzhen's image.

[A ridiculous number of unformatted URLs commented out below. Kindly use them to expand the article's coverage on banners:] <!--http://books.google.com/books?id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA293&dq=Li+yongfang&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IDzkUqOdIMipsQSa6YCQBA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Li%20yongfang&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA98#v=onepage&q&f=false

Nurhaci and Hongtaiji both viewed ethnic identity as determined by culture, language, and attitude, not by ancestry (genealogy), and these identities could be changed and people transferred from different ethnic banners to another. Mongols were associated with the Mongolian language, nomadism and horse related activities, Manchus were associated with Manchu language and foremost being part of the Banners, and Han Chinese were associated with inhabiting Liaodong, the Chinese language, agriculture, commerce.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ai1_5IHQ9vsC&pg=PA102#v=onepage&q&f=false

Biological determinants and ancestry were disregarded in determinng Manchu and Han identities, culture was the primary factor in differentiating between Manchu and Han, and occationally identities were blurred and could be altered.

http://books.google.com/books?id=y_nBKizpn18C&pg=PA75#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Manchu word for Han, "Nikan" was used to describe people who lived like Han Chinese and not their actual ethnic origin, the Han Bannermen (Hanjun) was not an ethnic category and the Han Banners included people of non-Han Chinese blood. Some Han Bannermen and their lineages became succesful members of the Qing nobility and their descendants continued to be awarded noble titles, like that of Li Yongfang who was ennobled by Nurhaci as third class viscount and enrolled in the Plain Blue Han Banner, and his descendants continued to be nobles to the final years of Qianlong's rule and were ennobled with even greater titles.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5iN5J9G76h0C&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Han who classified in different ways had come under Manchu rule in three different eras, before 1618 the Han "transfrontiersmen" who threw in their lot with Nurhaci were effectively only Han Chinese by ancestry and blood since they practiced Jurchen culture and became part of Manchu companies (Niru) within Manchu Banners, while the from 1618-1622 the Han captured in Liaodong and Liaoxi became either bondservants to Manchu Banners or Han Bannermen, and then finally the Han who deserted the Ming during Hong Taiji's rule to join the Manchu, and these were first placed into all Han companies (Niru) attached to Manchu Banners, and then when in 1642 the Manchu Banners ejected all their Han companies they were placed into separate Han Banners since they were the mostly not assimilated to Jurchen culture. At Guangning, Shi Tingzhu, a Ming soldier of Jurchen descent but who practiced Chinese culture, had surrendered to Nurhaci's Later Jin in 1622 along with Bao Chengxian and they were eventually placed into a Han Banners, after Bao suggested creating sepearte Han Banners. Neither were all Han Chinese in the Eight Banners part of the Han Banners (Hanjun), nor was the Han Banners msde out of only Han Chinese, Han Banner membership did not automatically mean they were actual Han Chinese. The Jurchens under Nurhaci had classified people as Han Chinese (Nikan) according to whether they were former Ming subjects, behaved like Han Chinese, had a Chinese lifestyle, spoke Chinese language, dressed like Han Chnese, and had Han Chinese names, and all Jurchens who had moved to Ming China adopted Chinese surnames.

http://books.google.com/books?id=EtNVMUx9qIIC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=EtNVMUx9qIIC&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q&f=false

First reference

http://books.google.com/books?id=KN7Awmzx2PAC&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Qing creation of the separate Manchu, Mongol, and Han Banners was not rooted in distinguishable classifications of people, but of fluxing categories defined by the Qing, their membership in the different banners primarily depending on whether they spoke the Manchu, Mongolian, or the Chinese language. It has been suggested that the Han Bannermen (Hanjun) themselves were not very familiar with the exact meaning of "Hanjun", as the Qing changed the definition of what it meant to be a Manchu or a Han Bannerman.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bANasl7nayUC&pg=PA372#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Manchu official Duanfang had Han Chinese ancestors originating from Zhejiang- towards the end of the Ming, they had defected to the Qing and moved to southern Manchuria from their original home in Zhejiang province, they changed their surname to Tohoro from Tao to make it sound Manchu and registered it in the Manchu Plain White Banner.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA55#v=onepage&q&f=false

Since the Manchus were willing to accept assimilated strangers, Han Chinese who defected to the Jurchens or were captured by them had integrated well into Manchu society. These Han Chinese transfrontiersman from Liaodong embraced Manchu customs and changed their names into Manchu to the point where they identified as Manchu rather than Chinese and resembles Manchus in their speech, behavior, and looks. It is hard for historians to tell whether a Manchu was originally a Han transfrontiersman since they no longer used Chinese names or regarded themselves as Han Chinese, Frederic Wakeman suggested that is evidence that the Manchu Dahai's ancestors were Han Chinese transfrontiersman. The Jurchen headman of Turun-hoton and arch-enemy of Nurhaci, Nikan Wailan, was also suggested to be a Han transfrontiersman by Wakeman, since his name literally meant "Chinese official".

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA42&dq=Chinese+acculturated+frontier+jurchen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDrkUozMFIvksATeqoK4Bw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20acculturated%20frontier%20jurchen&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA45#v=onepage&q&f=false

When Liaodong was invaded in 1619 by Nurhaci, it became imperative for the Jurchens to secure the loyalty of the Han (Nikan) in Liaodong to their cause, by treating them equally as Jurchens were treated and even seizing Jurchen properties, grains, wealth, possesions and homes to grant them to Han, and having the aristocracy expand to include Han families in order to get Han to defect to Nurhaci's side..

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Han Chinese Tao became Tohoro and were enlisted in Manchu banner. See above

http://books.google.com/books?id=z2japTNPRNAC&pg=PA339&dq=tao+tohoro+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6iPqUq_RGK_lygHm3oGYCQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tao%20tohoro%20han&f=false

See above

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA55&dq=tao+tohoro+han&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6iPqUq_RGK_lygHm3oGYCQ&ved=0CDQQ6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tao%20tohoro%20han&f=false

Han bannermen classified as Manchu

When the Communist Party was creating new classifications for ethnic minorities in the 1950s, since the entire Eight Banner system fit most of the definitions used to determine an ethnic group and shared those definitions across all the Banners, all members of the Eight Banners, whether Manchu, Mongol Bannermen, or Han Bannermen, could opt to join the newly created Manzu (Manchu) ethnicity which replaced the term qiren ("Banner people"), but the Mongol and Han Bannermen were also given the option of getting classified as Mongol or Han Chinese instead of Manchu. The "New Manchu" Daur, Xibe, Evenki, Oroqen, and Hezhe were allowed to form their own separate ethnic groups from the Manchus by the Communists.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA278#v=onepage&q&f=false

The mistaken views applied to Han Bannermen about race and ethnicity missed the fact that they were actually a "cultural group" since a person could be a Han Bannerman without having to be an actual Han Chinese.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sNPFc7kkjwAC&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q&f=false

Creation of Manchu ethnic group

Hong Taiji replaced Jurchen with Manchu and banned usage of the word Jurchen. The Jurchens had been vassals to the Ming dynasty and so carried a negative connotations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA70#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=8piRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

Acculturated Han in Manchu Banners

http://books.google.com/books?id=EtNVMUx9qIIC&pg=PA44&dq=Chinese+acculturated+frontier+jurchen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HivkUoO-MJTNsASB_4DoAg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20acculturated%20frontier%20jurchen&f=false

The Manchus gave extensive titles and honors and marriage to Aisin Gioro women to pre-1644 Han defectors, like the marriage of Nurhaci's grandaughter to Li Yongfang and his sons registered in the Han Plain Blue banner, and the title granted to the son of a Ming defector, Sun Sike (Sun Ssu-k'o) in the Han Plain White Banner, and the marriage of one of Kangxi's daughters to his son. At the begninning of the Qing, originally the sharpest distinction was drawn by Qing policy to emphasize difference between Han civilians and all Bannermen, and not between Han Bannermen and Manchu Bannermen. The Manchus used Nikan to describe Ming subjects in Liaodong who lived a Chinese lifestyle like sinicized Jurchens, Mongols, and Koreans, and not as a racial term for ethnic Han Chinese. A person only had to be originally a Ming subject and not ethnic Chinese to get categorized as a Han bannerman so people of Jurchen origin ended up in Mongol and Chinese Banners. Nurhaci used culture to categorize people and allowed Han transfrontiersmen to identify as Manchu adter assimilating, and ethnicity was regarded as flexible when Han Chinese and Mongols families were moved by Kangxi to Manchu Banners from their original Mongol and Han Banners.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gAIcwz3V_JsC&pg=PA181&dq=Chinese+barely+distinguishable+from+manchu+nobility&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cEDkUtz_IszNsQShsoLQDA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20barely%20distinguishable%20from%20manchu%20nobility&f=false

Han frontiersmen with Jurchen became hanjun. see above

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA42&dq=Chinese+acculturated+frontier+jurchen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDrkUozMFIvksATeqoK4Bw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20acculturated%20frontier%20jurchen&f=false

Li Yongfang's rewards for surrendering and defecting included promotion in rank, Nurhaci's granddaughter as a wife, battling along with Nurhaci and induction into the Jon aristocracy as a Chinese frontiersman, which was different from how Nurhaci handled both the Han transfrontiersmen who assimilated into Manchu identity and captured Han bondservants.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA61&dq=Chinese+frontiersman+jurchen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pTrkUrjqJ6q0sQSE4oHAAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20frontiersman%20jurchen&f=false

The Chinese frontiersman were inducted into the Han Banners.

http://books.google.com/books?id=z2japTNPRNAC&pg=PA72&dq=Chinese+frontiersman+jurchen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pTrkUrjqJ6q0sQSE4oHAAw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20frontiersman%20jurchen&f=false

Nurhaci offered to reward Li Yongfang with promotion and special treatment if he surrendered Fushun reminding him of the grim fate that would await him and Fushun's residents if they continued to resist.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IWS53cuiuVgC&pg=PA242&dq=Li+yongfang&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IDzkUqOdIMipsQSa6YCQBA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Li%20yongfang&f=false

See above

http://books.google.com/books?id=5iN5J9G76h0C&pg=PA72&dq=Li+yongfang&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IDzkUqOdIMipsQSa6YCQBA&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Li%20yongfang&f=false

Freeholder status was given to Li Yongfang's 1,000 troops after his surrender, and the later Han Bannermen Bao Chengxian and Shi Tingzhu also experience good fortune in Qing service after their surrenders in 1622 at Guangning.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA76&dq=Li+yongfang+jurchen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vTzkUseXOsnKsQSupIH4DQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Li%20yongfang%20jurchen.&f=false

Tong Guogang justified his asking for transfer to a Manchu Banner was because the Tong were of Jurchen origin, but only Tong Guogang's immediate family and company were transferred to the Manchu but the other Tong companies were left as Chinese. It was Qing policy to for every closely related in-law of the Emperor to get transferred into a Manchu Banner even if they were from another ethnicity and this was the most probable reason why Tong's request was granted by Kangxi, and more like than his appeal to his Jurchen origin. The beginning of the Qing showed flexibility and political expedience was used when determining ethnicity, both regarding Tong's transfer from a Han to a Manchu Banner and Han Chinese who assimilated to the Jurchens.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Eight Banners was made out of people of vastly different social and ethnic origins.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q&f=false

Onoi

Nurhaci used semi-literate interlocutors of Han (Nikan) origin to translate between different languages and trusted them alot, developing close and friendly personal relations with some of them like Kanggūri and Fanggina. The Han Chinese Gong Zhenglu (Gong Zhengliu) who was abducted in he 1580s by the Jurchens from Liaodong with tens of thousands of others, originally came from Shaoxing in Zhejiang became a close confidant of Nurhaci and tutoring his sons, adopting the Manchu name Onoi, and being showered with wives, slaves, and a house by Nurhaci.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wn4iv_RJv8oC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=Among+this+group+was+Onoi+(originally+Gong+Zhenglu,+or+Zhengliu,+of+Shaoxing,+Zhejiangl,+whom+Shin+Chung-il+considered+semi-literate.+Though+Shin+did+not+know+it,+the+relationship+between+Nurgaci+and+Onoi+was+solid+and+already+of+some&source=bl&ots=veM2nZsznt&sig=ajtNlwk7wzokh6BBJuPshavuzOs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LTrkUo24Hri-sQSl5YDwDw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Among%20this%20group%20was%20Onoi%20(originally%20Gong%20Zhenglu%2C%20or%20Zhengliu%2C%20of%20Shaoxing%2C%20Zhejiangl%2C%20whom%20Shin%20Chung-il%20considered%20semi-literate.%20Though%20Shin%20did%20not%20know%20it%2C%20the%20relationship%20between%20Nurgaci%20and%20Onoi%20was%20solid%20and%20already%20of%20some&f=false

Han Bannerman rose to many powerful positions and prominence under Shunzhi, these Han bannerman were descenants of Han defectors in Liaodong who joined Nurhaci and Hong Taiji, in the third or second generation. They "were barely distinguishable from Manchu nobility." Geng Zhongming, a Han bannerman, was awarded the title of Prince Jingnan, and his son Geng Jingmao managed to have both his sons Geng Jingzhong and Geng Zhaozhong become court attendants under Shunzhi and get married to Aisin Gioro women, with Haoge's (a son of Hong Taiji) daughter marrying Geng Jingzhong and Prince Abatai's granddaughter marrying Geng Zhaozhong.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA1016&dq=Chinese+barely+distinguishable+from+manchu+nobility&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3kDkUuqeN6_isASwuYDoCw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Chinese%20barely%20distinguishable%20from%20manchu%20nobility&f=false

Manchu Bannermen in Beijing were driven into poverty just decades after the conquest, living in slums and falling into debt, with signs of their plight appearing as soon as 1655. They were driven to the point where they had to sell their property to Han Chinese, in violation of the law.

http://hermes-ir.lib.hit-u.ac.jp/rs/bitstream/10086/8019/1/HJeco0120200010.pdf

Intermarriage and Banners

Originally in the early Qing the Qing Emperors both took some Han Chinese as concubines and a 1648 decree from Shunzhi allowed Han Chinese men to marry Manchu women from the Banners with the permission of the Board of Revenue if they were registered daughters of officials or commoners or the permission of their banner company captain if they were unregistered commoners, it was only later in the dynasty that these policies were done away with and the Qing enacted new policies in their xiunu system of drafting Banner girls for the Imperial Harem by excluding daughters of Han commoners.

http://www.chss.iup.edu/chr/CHR-2004Fall-11-WANG-research%20notes-final.pdf

Han Bannermen frequently married Han civilian women and this was permitted by the Qing Emperors, however the Qing Emperors were distressed to find girls in the Banners as a result of these intermarriages following Han civilian customs in clothing and jewelry when they ended up being drafted for palace service.

The Qing formulated policies to remove and shut out daughters of common Han bannermen from serving in the Imperial palace as maids and consorts, exempting them from the draft, asserting that it was doing it out of concern due to the economic plight of Han bannermen, however, it may have been doing this after the Qing court was alarmed to find girls from Han Banners following Han Chinese civilian customs like wearing robes with wide sleeves, feet binding, and wearing a single earring, all of which were contrary to Manchu custom, daughters of Manchu and Mongol bannerman still had to submit to the draft where they would be selected to serve in the Imperial palace as maids or potential consorts.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QXHbhsfaJAYC&pg=PA144#v=onepage&q&f=false

Daughters of Han Bannermen were exempt from having to submit themselves to palace service. It was not permitted for daughters of Han bannermen to enter the selection as concubines to the Emperor.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sNPFc7kkjwAC&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=sNPFc7kkjwAC&pg=PA343#v=onepage&q&f=false-->

Rajmaan (talk) 07:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

[More:] 

Three definitions of Manchu/Bannermen
[A ridiculous number of unformatted URLs commented out below. Kindly use them to expand the article's treatment of the banners:] <!--Xinjiang, Beijing, and Mukden (Shengjing) received garrisons of "New Manchus", who were formerly tribals from the northeast.

There should be included in this article the fluxing of what it meant to be "Manchu", as at several times to be a bannerman (qiren) was synonymous with being manchu and at other times it was not.

The Eight Banner Manchus 八旗滿洲 Baqi Manzhou New Manchus 伊車滿洲. 衣車滿洲 Yiche Manzhou ice manju. 新滿洲

The term "Manchu" could vary in meaning, various groups within the Eight Banners could be considered Manchu depending on how broad the definition was, one definition of Manchu was the "Old Manchu" including the Aisin Gioro clan, of the original founding population who spoke Manchu and who were the basis of the Banner system whom the Qing relied on the most. Another definition was both the Old Manchus and New Manchus who together made up the Eight Banner Manchus (八旗滿洲 Baqi Manzhou), after 1644 the Manchu Banners incorporated other Tungusic peoples (like the Xibe, Daur, Evenki, Oroqen, Hezhe) and these were the new Manchus (伊車滿洲. 衣車滿洲 Yiche Manzhou ice manju. 新滿洲), and the third definition of Manchu, when the Qing were differentiating between Bannermen (Man or Qiren) and non-Banner Han civilians (Han or min), included all people in the Eight Banners, including the Manchu, Mongol, and Han Banners (Hanjun) who were all Banner people (Qiren), so Man-Han and qi-min both referred to the same difference, of the entire Eight Banners being Manchu vs the general Han civilian population, and this broad view of all Banner people being Manchus vs the general Han civilian population was used by the Qing Emperor and government.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.npm.gov.tw/hotnews/9811seminar/download/b/335000000E-I6Z-549.pdf

Even though the concept of the Manchu ethnic group 'Manzu" was around during the time of the late Qing and early Republic of China period, people, including the ethnic Manchu Bannermen, identified themselves foremost as members of the Eight Banners (qiren) in contrast to civilians (min) and not by emphasizing their ethnic group, "qiren" and not "Manchu' was the most often used word to identify Manchus.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA269#v=onepage&q&f=false

Most people during that time viewed everyone in the Eight Banners as a Manchu, including anti-Qing revolutionaries like Liang Qichao. The Manchus were referred to most often as qiren, Manren, or Manzhouren, which were not ethnic terms, while the word "Manzu", which indicated Manchu as an ethnicity, was mostly unused.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA292#v=onepage&q&f=false

Within the Manchu banner companies, there were various Han Chinese and Mongol persons dispersed among them, and there were Mongol, Korean, Russian, and Tibetan companies in the Manchu Banners. The Manchu Banners had two main divisions between the higher ranking "Old Manchus" (Fo Manzhou, Fe Manju) made out of the main Jurchen tribes like the Jianzhou whom Nurhaci and Hong Taiji created the Manchu Banners from, and the lower ranking "New Manchus" (Yiche Manzhou, Ice Manju) made out of other Tungusic and Mongolic tribes like the Daur, (Dawoer), Oroqen (Elunchun), Solun (Suolun), Hezhe, Kiakar (Kuyula), and Xibe (Xibo) from the northeast who were incorporated into the Manchu Banners by Shunzhi and Kangxi after the 1644 Qing invasion of Ming China, in order for them to fight for the Qing against the Russian Empire in the Amur River Basin.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edward Rhoads asserts that the identity of the Manchu ethnic group is identical to that of the entire Eight Banners ever since after the boxer Rebellion down to this day when the People's Republic of China recognized the Manchu ethnic group.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tgq1miGno-4C&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Aha were made out of enslaved Jurchens, Koreans, Han Chinese, and Mongols before 1616, they then became part of the booi (bondservants) attached to Manchu Banners, there is no evidence that after 1621 most of the booi were Han Chinese despite the mistaken view held by many of this topic, many different ethnic groups were booi including Koreans and ethnic Manchu bondservants as well.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false

The identification and interchangeability between "Manchu" and "Banner people" (Qiren) began in the 17th century, with Banner people being differentiated from civilians (Chinese: minren, Manchu: irgen, or Chinese: Hanren, Manchu :Nikan), the term bannermen was becoming identical with Manchu to the general perception. Qianlong referred to all Bannmen as Manchu, and Qing laws did not say "Manchu" but referred to and affected "Bannermen".

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA133#v=onepage&q&f=false

The identification of "Bannerman" (Qiren) with "Manchu" grew stronger due to Qing policy of reinforcing Manchu identity using the Banners from the 18th century, and became more so up to the Xinhai Revolution in 1911 and finally, all Bannermen and their descendants were recognized as ethnic Manchu (Manzu) by the People's Republic of China.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false

History of the early jurchen tribes

Both Koreans, Han Chinese, and Jurchens who were prisoners of war or abducted became part of the Aha, the forerunner of the booi (bondservants) in the Banners, although the Jurchens integrated into their own some of the earlier captured Han Chinese and Koreans. The Jianzhou Jurchens accepted some Han Chinese and Koreans who became Jušen (freeholders) on Jianzhou land.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false -->

Jurchen relations with Korea
[A ridiculous number of unformatted URLs commented out below. Kindly use it for future expansion of the article's treatment of Korean issues:]

Rajmaan (talk) 09:07, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Rajmaan, with thanks for your time and effort, don't do that. — Llywelyn II   07:59, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Unused sources from the article
Further reading sections are almost always a bad idea at Wikipedia since we don't have anyone to curate them and people don't usually gloss why these texts are relevant or how they supplement the sources already being used by the article. Kindly restore these once they are being used to verify statements in the running text: — Llywelyn II   07:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Franke, Herbert. 1971. “Chin Dynastic History Project”. Sung Studies Newsletter, no. 3. Society for Song, Yuan, and Conquest Dynasty Studies: 36–37. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23497078.
 * Schneider, Julia. 2011. “The Jin Revisited: New Assessment of Jurchen Emperors”. Journal of Song-yuan Studies, no. 41. Society for Song, Yuan, and Conquest Dynasty Studies: 343–404. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23496214.

These "sources" were listed in the bibliography but not actually used: Kindly reinclude them when they are, yknow, being used. — Llywelyn II   08:41, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

"Attribution"
is a lazy kludge left over from when we didn't bother doing inline citations in the first place. Kindly find what text is sourced from this and note it in an inline cite. — Llywelyn II   10:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Pelliot
goes through all the various explanations of the old forms, as well as others in French and German not listed here, with useful commentary.

It really ought to be worked into a restructured name section with more on Persian and Uyghur and the known-incorrect forms removed from the "oddly transcribed" as given now and treated separately with Pelliot's explanations for the errors that gave rise to them. That said, I'm rather burnt out on trying to work through this whole mess... — Llywelyn II   04:34, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

WP:RS and WP:VERIFY
don't mean that anything any book says is fine for inclusion in the articles. Cambridge's guide on China carries a lot more weight and it makes the emphatic point that—while plenty of people claim connection between earlier Manchurian peoples and the Jurchen—there's no solid evidence or agreement on the subject.
 * a. We shouldn't cherrypick sources to pretend that the Jurchen's Mohe past is certain, when Franke explicitly denies that point.
 * b. If some new evidence has come to light, the article should explain the earlier claims despite uncertainty and walk through what has changed and why.

Thanks, — Llywelyn II   07:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, historical professionals' have a consensus that they are indeed the same nation. There are dissenters, but no college course would ever state that this is more than a minority opinion.50.111.50.200 (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

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