Talk:Jure Francetić/Archive 1

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Some explanations
I've got a number of books and articles providing a bit partial information about Francetic's life. Succeeded in replacing the old text (which was written more or less as a propaganda pamphlet) by information gathered from the references and assembled it logically. Left POV tag - for seeing most of the remaining (unchanged) text as the un-sourced and biased.--72.75.20.29 (talk) 21:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Some parts of the (remaining) text are not covered yet by references. Still did not insert {fact} hoping find the reference and come back later.--72.75.20.29 (talk) 00:43, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Totally unverified
There is not one single source mentioned in the references that can be verified.All these are books (from ex-yugoslavia authors). That is why putting tamplate is 100% justified.--Añtó&#124; Àntó (talk) 15:02, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * All sources are fully verifiable. The books are available in libraries of the academic institutions across the world. Moreover the Alexander Arnon testimony is available online here . Did you read any of the references given in the article?--72.75.20.29 (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

1. Alexander Armon's testimony says about ustaše- but nothing about Francetić. So, it is relevant for article Ustaše-not this one.

2. All these cited "books" are not verifiable by internet. I could also "cite" some "books" wtitten by author "XX", fictional names and authors. But that is not the point.

--Añtó&#124; Àntó (talk) 16:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No necessity for a reference to be verifiable over the Internet. Arnon's testimony is a complementary information. Please, avoid further vandalization of this article.--72.75.20.29 (talk) 01:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Many books are digitized - and therefore online verifiable. The others - not digitized - are available publicly through the US public library system--71.252.55.101 (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

What you cite are couple of "books " whose neutrality and reliability is not checked at all. They can not be verified by web (neither 1 single of them!!) -so we can not check neither their existence!!!These things might not be relevanti in some cases but issues like these (war and war crimes)-they are essential.--Añtó&#124; Àntó (talk) 08:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * According to Wikipedia policies, books can be used as sources and referenced without any problem. It is completely irrelevant weather the book is published on the internet. If a book is published, that means that it's available from libraries and/or bookstores, and so it can be verified. There is no single word in any Wikipedia policy that says internet links are preferred over books. See: WP:CITE. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

So according to "policy", we could claim that all crimes committed in the United States by blacks v whites v latinos, etc. MUST BE racist in nature because author A,B or C wrote a book positing such a claim. This logic is COMPLETELY flawed in substance. Therefore, this site is merely a mouthpiece for the spreading of propaganda and its like by those who offer no proof of substance. I could write that book myself and then claim its validity. Your logic has smeared the name of this person without a single shred of proof that would stand up in a court of law! Wise up! — Preceding unsigned comment added by GDrinjanin (talk • contribs) 23:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit warring: warning
I can see a lot of edit warring here, and very little use of the talk page. This is a Bad Thing and will lead to people - probably nice cute hearts-in-the-right-place people getting blocked if they don't take care William M. Connolley (talk) 16:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from Klosharz, 12 January 2011
The basic information about Jure Francetić is completely false. It says that he is responsible for massacres of Serbs and Jews, which is complety off track. He was the comander of the Croatian elite army forces calles "Crna Legija" or "The Black Legion". The Black legion has nothing to do with murdering civilians or any inocent people. The Black legion only gained combat with enemy armies that involved: Serbian fascists Chetnicks and Communist Partizan(which were united in 1944).

Klosharz (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The information appears to be well sourced to me. If you have sources that disagree, please make a new edit request and present them here. In addition, please propose a wording that we can use for the counter-theory. It's okay for us to report two competing theories as long as both are well cited. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

War and war crimes
Francetić participated personally in arresting and interrogations of prominent Serbian and Jewish leaders (Miškina, Albahari)[11]

Who is this Miškina? Do we know his first name? Certainly not Mihovil Pavlek Miškina.  Ro voo bo   ob oov oR  13:26, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * From some Bosnian man I learned that there was a communist Vaso Miskin Crni killed by Croatian Ustashi in Sarajevo. The text, as given, shall be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.236.199 (talk • contribs) 10 January 2012

More about this Ustashe
In the Shadow of Hitler: Personalities of the Right in Central and Eastern Europe by Rebecca Haynes, Martyn Rady I.B. Tauris London, New York 2011 pages 188-206 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.236.199 (talk) 02:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

January 12th edit request
1) Please, remove from he escaped to Germany to avoid another arrest.[citation needed]. This sentence is already supported by previous reference:

Srednja Bosna: ne zaboravimo hrvatske žrtve: 1941-50/1991-95 by Vjenceslav Topalović, Hrvatski informativni centar, 2001 ISBN 9536058324, 9789536058327

2) In Serbian and Jewish leaders (Miškina, Albahari)[11] replace Miškina by Miskin. That man's full name was Vaso Miskin Crni, which is already supported by reference [11]

3) Add to the War and War Crimes subtitle after the second paragraph: Justification for the slaughter of Bosnian Serbs and Jews Francetic found in  the propaganda of 'the Jewish communist hydra' had succeeded in misleading a majority of the Serb Orthodox population in eastern Bosnia into commiting 'criminal acts against the state' the 'most drastic means' would have to be empolyed against them. 4) Add this to the Death subtitle: Ustashe authorities were so concerned about the effect of his death would have on supporters of their movement that the news of his death was delayed until the beginning of March 1943. Official announcement of his death came on March 31 1943, and Ustashe declared eight days of official mourning.

5) Fix reference [15] by entering this text

Vjesnik Jedinstvene narodno-oslobodilačke fronte Hrvatske 1941-1945: Izbor by Božidar Novak, Jedinstvena narodno-oslobodilačka fronta Hrvatske, Vlado Stopar ,"Vjesnik" 1970 page 384 title PSETO JURE FRANCETIC U RUKAMA NARODA - Translation: Jure Francetic, the dog, is in the peoples hands

Someone cut off half of the reference text (after Izbor) with no reason.

It's ok with me if the proposed fixes and additions are done by someone without lifting the page protection. --71.163.236.199 (talk) 17:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: I've done 1 and 2; I'll let someone else take care of the rest. -- Bryce  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 04:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Partly done: I've added the text requested in 4, with the remainder of the reference from 3. Based on the italics, 3 seems to be directly quoting the reference. That isn't needed to summarize the point and may violate the copyright. The two references, 15 and 16, contain much of what you are requesting in 5, without the text following "page 384". If you want to replace those two references, please break the references down using the cite book template so I can understand the meaning of each part. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 22:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: 3) is ok with me. I do not see any copyright violation here. The same reference is already in use.--Eleven Nine (talk) 00:33, 31 January 2012 (UTC)