Talk:Justice League/Archive 1

Sentence
In 1999, storytellers Mark Waid, Brian Augustyn, and Barry Kitson re-tooled and expanded the Secret Origins origin with the miniseries JLA: Year One.

Anyone know what to do with this sentence it's kinda just hanging in the middle of nothing. Whispering 01:19, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Extraneous links
I'm going to work over the entire article and edit out the extraneous links. I for one don't like looking at a blue word every other sentence it's rather disconcerting. If people really want to look up Detroit, and etc they can just type it into the search thing over on the left of the page. Whispering 00:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC) disambiguation link repair (You can help!)


 * I disagree. My point is sometimes what makes you look up for something is exactly the fact the word is right there in blue, just a click away. This is what Wikipedia is about. Lesfer &#9742; 02:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

JLI
"Occasional slant"? Did you read any of those stories? They were routinely insane. That's why they were so funny. Only when they got into the extreme self-referencing toward the end (IMNSHO...) did it get "excessive". (BTW, I've read & bought 'em all.) Trekphiler 09:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Awards section
I removed the various nominess ("top votegetter") stuff that the poster seems to be plastering on this and every other comics-related page; just being nominated for a fan-based award IMO doesn't seem important enough to merit including (esp. with so many such awards). Anthony Dean 02:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You have a point, clearly. And I clearly agree that the CBGs have a LOT of names listed in their various awards. I get the impression that in the lists I have anything that got even 1% of the vote is listed. However, I am entering them in award by award (CBG, Eisner, Harvey, etc.), and it may well be that some of them will prove to be possibly "noteworthy" later, or at least relevant to additional awards which may be received from some of the others. I'm thinking here of a situation where it might be the case that, for example, Story X won the Eisner Award (for example), was perhaps nominated (?) for the Harvey, and was a votegetter for the CBG Award. That might be justified as perhaps significant. And I apologize if I am putting in too many in your opinion. I would welcome any response. And I should also note that in the cases of creators (as opposed to storylines) the standard format I intend to use will probably be "Person X WON awards X, Y, and Z, and was nominated for X three/four/five/whatever times." Also, I'm curious as to whether you would think that such should be included only if they receive a certain "threshold" of votes, which might be higher than the 1% which seems to be the basis of the list I have. Would you object to the inclusion of any which (for example) got 5% or more, or the top 5 or 10 from the list, or something like that. Any response would be welcome. Thank you. Badbilltucker 15:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * See my response to your post to my user talk page; basic sentiment of me (and from what I've seen, others) is that only awards that were actually *won* should be listed, not nominees. Anthony Dean 01:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Only awards won. Honestly, nominations for fan-based awards means nothing IMO. Lesfer 18:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Justice League of America → Justice League – Page was moved from latter without a reason. The page discusses all Justice Leagues of the past, not all of which were named Justice League of America.


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support - There have been many iterations of the league (Justice League Antarctica, anyone?), and concievably they might deserve their own articles, but it's better as just one considering how similar they all are. --waffle iron 04:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Support - KramarDanIkabu's comments speak for itself. Lesfer 23:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. --Shii/Ashibaka tock 20:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

I would like to point out a few similarly named articles: Titans (comics), Outsiders (comics), and Avengers (comics), all of which encompass the multiple incarnations of the team in their names. KramarDanIkabu 05:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

sweet new 'justice' image
you guys see this yet? think we can find a place for it? Exvicious 04:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How about Justice (DC Comics) article? —Lesfer (talk/@) 15:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Page numbers
Do we really need these in bibliography? It just seems overkill. --Chris Griswold 19:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I totally agree. —Lesfer (talk/@) 20:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

New Justice League
I'm not sure how to add photos or new sections but the Sequart page has a great new picture (composed apparently of the 2 alternate covers) of just about every major gun and most former (and living) members of the JLA with a hand (character unseen) holding invitations. Because the three big guns are in the picture, I can only assume this is the One Year Later JLA and not Luthor's version. Someone who knows more about the editing should consider adding this to the entry. Here's the link http://www.sequart.com/news/index.php?story=1158.

Note also - Booster Gold, Elongated Man and the Question are depicted suggesting that none of them will die during the 52 event. Also of note is that the Martian Manhunter is not seen (and may be the hand holding invitations - though miscolored to hide his identity?)


 * This image is merely a teaser. Note that the original Aquaman is there as well as the late Tempest, Karate Kid from the Legion of Super-Heroes and Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern instead of Ion. —Lesfer (talk/@) 23:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's cover art. Two variants split it in half. One cover with Green Lantern and Green Arrow in prominence, the other with Batman and Superman in prominence. 71.112.65.153 04:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, the "real" cover has... Red Arrow (Probably Arsenal)?

Article is shaping up
It's nice to see this article actually becoming something. Editors continue to better the article with their contributions. --Chris Griswold 22:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep, but we need to verify the veracity on some info. —Lesfer (talk/@) 20:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

About the merge
I don't think is aware of the article size issue. —Lesfer (talk/@) 22:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Wiki Had a size limit on articles? Paladin656 16:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's recommended that articles be around/no larger than 32k in size. This is to accomodate slow connections/computers that take a long time to load even a small page. CovenantD 17:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So it's clear why this is not a good idea. —Lesfer (talk/@) 21:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What merge? --Chris Griswold 23:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No merge, I didn't know about the size recommendations. =/  Paladin656 03:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Navbox Guidelines
Please follow this link Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/templates/navboxes to join in on the discussion. --Basique 12:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

New Membership
"In issue #1, published in August 2006, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman initially select Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), Black Canary, Arsenal, and Power Girl as members of the reformed Justice League. Only Black Canary, Hal Jordan, and Arsenal are shown accepting."

We need to make sure we're not making guesses about the story. We've only seen the Big 3 vote in Hal and Power Girl. Anything beyond that is an assumption. The Hal, Black Canary and Aresnal subplot is seperate from the membership votes, so BC and Roy have not been voted in yet. --Lex 18:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it's pretty clear that Hal and Dina came to take Roy with them. This isn't an assumption, it's something the text strongly implies through Green Arrow's reaction. What else might he have meant by proud and also feeling left out? --Chris Griswold (  ☏  )  20:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but those three are going to check in on Red Tornado's wife. It has nothing to do with League membership... yet. --Lex 20:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You have completely convinced me. Because of Green Arrow's reaction, I misread it as "I'm not in the League but Roy is." You were wright. I was wrong. --Chris Griswold (  ☏  )  22:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I see someone reverted my edit, but I still stand by it. We've only seeing the votes on Hal, Power Girl and Supergirl. No where in the book is membership offered and accepted by anyone. Hal, Black Canary and Arsenal are going to visit Red Tornado's wife. Ollie feels left out of the usual Hal-Ollie-Dinah group. --Lex 21:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree 100% with Lex. The big three are still sitting at a table discussing membership - no one else has been called.  The other events with Hal and others are happening simultaneously to the story.  In fact, outside this comic issue, Power Girl has been touted by DC as going to be part of the reformed JSA.  No memberships have yet been offered or accepted; it's just three heroes debating on who they will approach.--SilentJustice 21:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm also with Lex. They are not shown accepting invitations, but grouping. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 22:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are on the team, given they're putting it together. WesleyDodds 05:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * LIES! --Chris Griswold (  ☏  )  06:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I appreciate whomever it was who edited this section stating that there was no need for a page by page, HOWEVER, I must point out that the summary they replaced the text with is wrong. There is no documentation that Batman et. al. offered membership to Black Canary or Arsenal.  Their names were never even mentioned.  Now, we may assume that is what's going to happen since we know the spoilers that they end up on the team, but until it happens in a documented form, we should be careful not to treat assumptions as facts.--SilentJustice 21:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, how do we know spoilers that are undocumented? Are you talking about the cover that shows Arsenal, Hawkgirl, Hal Jordan, Black Canary, Red Tornado, Black Lightning, Vixen, Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman on it? Or do you have something else? --Chris Griswold (  ☏  )  22:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I assume that's what they're using because people keep insisting that Black Canary and Arsenal have been selected as members but they haven't even been discussed. We must keep in mind that THAT spolier cover is not the official one and could reflect a line-up that has since been changed.--SilentJustice 23:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

JLA sales
I'm curious as to what's being looked for regarding the citation tag for the statement that JLA was DC's best-selling title at the time. I distinctly recall looking at the sales charts during Grant Morrison's run and JLA would be the highest-charting DC book. I hope this doesn't mean that we have to cite multiple sales charts. WesleyDodds 11:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

History
JLI 19 (p19, panel 4) made history: Bats makes a joke. Trekphiler 08:49, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Only if you were brought up on the current/recent version of Batman, I suppose---the pre-Crisis Bats actually had a sense of humor (along with a real personality/actual emotions beyond "angry jerk" and "less angry jerk", but I digress ... ;-) ). Anthony Dean 02:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Never a fan of either, just his JLI apps. Discovering Dark Claw, tho, I nearly bust a gut laughing... Trekphiler 10:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

52
Should there be a part about the short lived Justice League in 52?

It consisted of Firestorm, Ambush Bug, Firehawk, Super-Chief and Bulleteer. They tried recruiting Green Arrow through an old JLA communicator, but he said no, and said he'll take the communicator back next week. ~Dave 12:12, 21st October 2006 (UTC)


 * To me, it doesn't seem important enough to be mentioned in this article... though it was fun to see in the comic. Mentioning their line-up in List of Justice League members is good enough, but we shouldn't clog up this article with the rosters that only lasted one issue. - Lex 22:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

My recent overhaul of the article
Before anybody goes and reverts the page, since someone is bound too, I'd like for that person to come here and defend the previous version of the page. First off, my changes:
 * The title boxes: These were really quite necessary, as this article isn't just about the group, its also about the series.
 * The placing of 'the origin' at the end of the publication history rather than at the front: I found that an analysis of the team's origin would better fit at the end than it would in the beginning. Heck, if a fictional history section is created, it would actually be best suited over there.
 * Removal of the JLA #115 cover: Really unnecessary picture that added nothing.
 * Insertion of trivia into article: A single bulleted point that fit perfectly in the article, so why not?
 * Change of headers: Again, it's not just a group page, it's a series page. It isn't about being OYL, it's about there being a second volume of the JLofA. Also, the mini was not called "Super Buddies", it was called "Formerly Known as the Justice League".
 * Awards and bibliography before other media: A seemingly logical thing to me, since the article is still about the comic, and the awards and bibliography pertain to the comic, and should therefore preceed the other media.
 * Division of "see also": Clearer so that people can exactly find what they're looking for.

I hope that makes why I made my changes clear. I know I didn't go through consensus or anything, but I was being bold. If I've come off smug or condescending, it was not intentional, I'm just afraid this page will now be needlessly reverted. Kusonaga 14:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

regarding the long header in origins section

 * Vague? How is it vague? The article is about Justice League, so the origins' section has to be about the Justice League... —Lesfer (t/c/@) 15:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it doesn't specify exactly what aspect it would be the origin of. Stating it as "Various origins of the Justice League" immediately makes it clear that we are talking about the group as opposed to the title. If other editors however agree that it is unnecessary to denote "of the Justice League", I won't fight its removal. Kusonaga 16:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Requesting an edit
Could somebody enter Justice League of America (Live action) to the "other media" table at the bottem of the article please, I am unaware as how to do this, thankyou Ryan4314 02:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

JLA Classified
I don't think we need a split. This is a matter of creating a JLA Classified article and add a link in here. Just as other related series -- eg. Super Buddies and Justice (DC Comics). Simple as that. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 19:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't that what a split is? --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  )  01:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As an anthology series, I'd think any major revelations would belong either in the main JLA article or for the individual characters (such as Power Girl's backstory in JSA Classified). I'm skeptical there's enough cohesiveness in JLA Classified to warrant its own article. HalJor 17:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  )  20:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think JLA Classified needs its own article page to help explain to any new readers (i.e. me) what's going on, especially since the series is up to twenty-seven issues already (as of Sept. 2006). If JSA Classified is expected to have their own article page (the link is red in the JSA main article page), then perhaps JLA Classified should as well. ~Tina 21:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What's going on is whatever the correct arc is. SO far, there have been at least three arcs 4 issues and under. Thanks for pointing out the JSA:Classified link. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  )  22:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. If no one agrees that JLA Classified should have its own article page (a la Justice), then maybe the section should supply more details, plus specifying the fact that it is an "unofficial" Elseworlds series. ~Tina 23:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How is it unofficially an Elseworlds series? --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  )  01:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not in the DCU continuity, I think, and yet it doesn't have an Elsewords seal.~Tina 04:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The "not in continuity" thing is debatable depending on the story. The Super Buddies arc may or may not be in continuity.  Most of the rest of the stories should be in continuity, yet take place sometime in the League's past.  Besides, I think DC has retired the Elseworlds seal. - Lex 04:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is it not in continuity? --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  )  05:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

JLA Classified is in official continuity. The stories take place somewhere in the team's past. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 05:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well this needs to be explained more clearly in the JLA: Classified section of the article. It seems to me that there's not enough information as of yet to warrant a new article, but perhaps once the section is expanded it might.  I vote for expanding the section (starting with how it fits into DC continuity (or doesn't) and see how it expands from there (if needed). --In Defense of the Artist 21:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Notes about the new headquarters
The groundbased portion resembles the Hall of Justice from Super Friends, while the orbital portion resembles the Watchtower and its annexes from Justice League Unlimited. Also, it's mentioned as being on the site of the original JSA and All-Star Squadron's headquarters. While I don't recall if the JSA's original HQ was in Gotham City or in Washington, wasn't the All-Star Squadron's HQ always on the site of the 1939 World's Fair in Flushing Meadows, New York? RahadyanS 13:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

New picture
I love the new team picture, JLA1.jpg, but we need to get some licensing information on that picture. Does anyone know what it's from? It's obviously promotional art of some sort. --Chris Griswold 12:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's the almagamated cover from the new Brad Meltzer series, released through Newsarama. Check out DC Comics.com in the August releases: Justice League of America #1. #0 comes out on the 19th of this month. CmdrClow 05:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, wrong post. CmdrClow 05:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like Turner's work, but this new image looks great. Nice one, CmdrClow ;) —Lesfer (t/c/@) 17:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Green Lantern
I know that Tyrese is going to audition, but isn't T.I. also wanting that role? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.112.120.133 (talk) 03:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Casting for new film
I have revised the references to rumored casting for the new film. Until the WB issues an official announcement, all such reports are to be considered rumor and potentially false until proven otherwise. 68.146.41.232 (talk) 19:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

the new comic book series
the new series by Meltzer/Benes is this (vol. 2) or v4?? here in this lemma we can read vol.2, but here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Impossible) we can read that the 1st. app. of Dr Impossible is Justice League of America v4 #1...

so what is the correct "name" of the new series?? vol.2 or vol.4???

Similar qustion with the new JSA - is the new series vol 3 or vol 4 here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Society_of_America) the new series has no. 3, but i mean it should be 4...???? the last comic book series (from David S. Goyer, which ran from 1999 until 2006) is in my opinion series 3... I'm confused.. so please help --87.78.141.119 19:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The numbering goes like this:
 * Justice League of America (Vol. 1) = Original Series from 1961
 * Justice League America (Vol. 1) = JLI Series, note that there's no "of" in the title
 * JLA (Vol. 1) = Morrison Series, note that the title itself is just the acronym, "JLA".
 * Justice League of America (Vol. 2) = Current Series that started in 2006. This is the second "Justice League of America" series that both contains the word, "of", and is spelled out in full and not an acronym. The previous series don't count since the title isn't the exact words, "Justice League of America".
 * --Trademark123 23:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about that, series with different names still count as versions of the same series..She Hulk, for example, is up to v4 even though v2, v1 and the current version had different names. Darquis


 * There's no clear answer to this question, and it's open to dispute among fans; writer Dan Slott even parodied this in an early issue of the most recent She-Hulk series, where he had a couple fanboys in She-Hulk's law firm's "research" (comic book) office arguing over whether the most recent series was volume 2 or volume 4. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 19:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

okay - thanks! this helps! Then here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Impossible) it is wrong!! Also here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Society_of_America) is something wrong?? --87.78.109.199 05:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

GeoForce
There were interviews floating around saying an 11th member would be added to the team (or rather, another member in addition to the team formed in the first arc, no specific number was given, that's my math) and as of the last two books it seems that GeoForce is it. Should he be added to the team's roster? Darquis 07:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems like he should be, judging from the last page of Justice League of America #8. But unless Batman or Superman actually says "Welcome to the Justice League" to Geo-Force, someone will delete him from the roster. 69.23.140.243 04:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Luke

In an interview with Meltzer at Newsarama.com, he says that Geo-Force is not yet a member of the League. I think he mentions that the last page in JLA #8 was a mistake. CasimirAngel 17:37, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, this point is pretty messy now... If Geo-Force is not a member, why the heck is he doing monitor duty? I think they fixed the mess by somehow making him a member and that's it (lol) —Lesfer (t/c/@) 17:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Geo-Force was transferred out of the Justice League to Batman's Outsiders; see recent issues of Batman and the Outsiders. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 19:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hayden Christensen
I just heard he will be playing Superman. Is there any truth to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.132.245 (talk) 23:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It's false. Also, thanks to an april fool's day joke there has been a revitalization of rumors that Brandon Routh and Christian Bale would be returning--which included changes to the article. I changed them back and removed that article from the references. If you click on the link for the actual press release it tells you plain and simple that it's an april fool's day joke. Durkinator27 (talk) 20:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Upcoming Film Mention?
There isn't anything official about it, but Brandon Routh and Christian Bale said they are open to the idea. There were those rumors about stopping Superman sequels and going straight into JL movies. Should there be a mention of it? Arnabdas 21:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A myspace post from The Man Of Steel official Myspace page today (04/01/08) Claims that Christian Bale and Brandon Routh will be starring in the film as Batman and Superman. I included a pic of Batman holding a piece of Kryptonite to Supermans face as he grabbed him by the throat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.229.83 (talk) 20:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It was an April Fool's joke! Durkinator27 (talk) 14:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Excessive fair-use
Already tagged as NFC overuse but regular editors are giving vague excuses to keep. Most images can be moved easily into the TV series and parody articles. Ultra! 08:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Third opinion: A 3O isn't really necessary here since there hasn't been any discussion pertaining to the topic of too many non-free images. Per WP:BRD, why not be bold and take a swing at removing them? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 04:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I did once. Ultra! 09:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous
I'm watching you do the membership list.... will you divide the JLI into the JLA and the JLE? You may even wish to mention the Justice League Antarctica - David Stewart 10:09, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think dividing the list makes sense -- I just wish there was a way to make columns next to each other. BTW, I should note that I called "Black Canary" by that name instead of "Black

Canary II" because there was no clear delineation between "mother and daughter" since, of course, the mother-daughter relationship was a retcon, and it was the original Black Canary who joined the JLA in the late '60s. --Kaijan 10:16, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Good list. You might wish to add the Formerly Known as Justice League membership (I have mentioned the title in the history). - David Stewart 09:18, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * "You may even wish to mention the Justice League Antarctica." No, we don't. We really, really don't. Trekphiler 08:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I am changing the so-called correction of Firestorm to Firestar. I am doing this as Firestorm is a far more notable and longterm member (and character) than Firestar who is a secondary Firestorm character and recent member only. :Scottbeck 06:31, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Could someone remove that idiotic "Pi is 3.14, so deal!" line? - If anybody cares, in JLA 4, GA is first new addition, according to Daniels' DC Comics. Trekphiler 10:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC) -- And could someone run a spellchecker on this article and clean up the grammar. It keeps jumping between past, present and future tense. Sometimes in the same sentence. 202.7.183.131 (talk) 11:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. There are quite a few statements made that need referencing in the main body of the article. However, it also contains a parodies/homage section which is almost always a magnet for unsourced speculation and original research dragging down any article that contains one (unless they are harshly pruned back to what can be proved and then heavily policed) and the section in this article is a perfect example of such problems. The article stands no chance of getting above a C without something drastic being done with that section.


 * Not related to the B-class assessment but the in other media section could be split of to it own article. (Emperor (talk) 19:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

Black Canary as founding member
Twice IP 130.68.91.63 has removed Black Canary from a passage concerning who the founding membership was, according to current continuity. The second time he/she added the hidden message, "Black Canary is not a founding member in current continuity. Please do not change this again." However, the passage in question itself includes, "[T]he 1989 Secret Origins and JLA:Year One origins are still in canon...." The problem is that the earlier of those (I admit to no familiarity with the later one) specifically includes Canary (albeit the Golden Age version, i.e., the mother of the modern heroine) as a founding member. So either the IP is wrong, or more extensive editing is required here. Does anybody know which? --Ted Watson (talk) 21:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 2 quick things:
 * JLA: Year One is fairly explicit in having the second Black Canary as a founder of the team.
 * This may be one of the poster children for why we shouldn't be slavishly trying to get "current" continuity "right". The PH should be covering the original material, the post-Crisis recon, and the post-IC retcon (to be honest I don't know if BC was removed from the initial line up or not). When the roster is hashed out (in the list article) the notes should be pointing to the retcons but still including the characters when they first appeared as members.
 * - J Greb (talk) 04:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. In this case, we need to note both Black Canary (Dinah Laurel Lance) and Wonder Woman (Silver Age). (With footnoted explanations.) As an encyclopedia, we should note all the info, not necessarily what the "current" editorial opinion at DC is. - jc37 05:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * In other words, more extensive editing is required. However, all that has been done at this writing is to remove the hidden message and restore BC (no distinction as to which one) to the "current continuity" founding members list. Since, according to J Greb, Year One has BC2 and, according to me, Secret Origins has BC1, it isn't possible for both of those to be "current." From the mid-90s to 1999 I was only nibbling around the edges of mainstream DC continuity, and since then have been almost totally on the outside, so I can't be the one fix this. Somebody please! --Ted Watson (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I really wish I had access to SO #32... I could have sworn they tried to avoid using the JSAers in it.
 * And even if it were the GA version (fists only) in that story, based on the source for the cite (the 2 page back up from 52 Week 51), it's been turffed. The 3rd panel of the 1st page recaps the Appellax story with the SA Canaray present (Sonic attack shown). The text in the 1st panel of the 2nd page is explicit:
 * "Initially, Black Canary, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter formed the group's core. Before long, co-founders Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman assumed full membership, as well." (2nd narration box)
 * At best, the line in question could be changed to:
 * 52 - Week 51 integrated aspects of the 1962, 1989, and 1998 origin stories and presented the initial Appelaxian invitation with eight heroes - Aquaman, Batman, Black Canary, Flash, Green Lantern, the Martian Manhunter, Superman, and Wonder Woman - present. This version then had Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman join as "co-founders" shortly after the other five had started working as the core of the team.
 * - J Greb (talk) 22:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have that issue of secret origins. She talks about (thinks about) her mother. So it's the daughter in that case.
 * (Noting also that they were very ambiguous as to which Superman it might have been, and he only appears as a quick cameo, not acting as part of the team.)
 * And I think your suggested text seems fine, except that I think we should note that originally it was Wonder Woman not Black Canary. Perhaps a footnoted timeline noting the "status" of each over time. - jc37 02:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The Secret Origins under discussion (#32, November 1988, not '89) was the first post-crisis telling of the JLA's origin and there was only one Superman in existence at that point (John Byrne's). The story was told in flashback with him limited to the framing sequence. This version retained the early 1960s setting for the event itself and consequently it was the Golden Age/mother Black Canary who took part. Perhaps the daughter was among the others in the frame. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just for you, I went and found my copy of issue #32 (cover dated Nov 88), and even found Secret Origins, published in 89, which reprinted the story as well.
 * The pages aren't numbered, so I'll just count to the page (including ad pages).
 * Page 16 starts Black Canary's section. I quote:


 * "Your're an idiot," they'll say.
 * I know it, I just know it. The first time someone sees me they'll point and say, "Who do you think you're supposed to be -- [logo] Black Canary
 * I must be nuts, other people inherit houses, from their parents, or money, or jewelry or something.
 * What do I inherit?
 * [Next panel] A role as a costumed crimefighter, with an ear-spliiting "Canary Cry" and fishnet stockings that went out of style two decades ago.
 * Thanks Ma, thanks loads.


 * On the next page she says:


 * Mother! I'll get you for this!
 * Why couldn't my first case be somthing simple? Like a serial killer!


 * The reprint has exactly the same text.


 * As for Superman, back then, yes the Byrne Man of Steel was Superman in Action Comics, but that wasn't the solid editorial stance. Note that Secret Origins #1 featured the golden age Superman.
 * That said, Superman appears in all of 2 panels, never actually speaking to the JLA-ers. He has a quick thought balloon, obviously done for humourous reasons, though it implies that "at that moment" he and Lois aren't yet married. But since this is back when the JLA was founded, that's still vague, and could imply any of the Supermen. Which was likely the intent. They could show him, without ascribing him to any particular moment in continuity, especially since, at that time, who he was was still under discussion. For example, did Byrne's Man of Steel premier just before/during Legends? Yes. Same as Batman Year 1, and the new Wonder Woman. But DC backpedalled on that. (I don't think we need to delve too much into the behind the scenes interplay at DC Comics between editors and such, even though it's referenced in several articles already.)
 * So I would be a bit wary in definitely defining Superman based solely on that Secret Origins story. - jc37 14:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * In the intro of the reprint book, Mark Waid (the editor) states:


 * The League's origin was revealed in JLA #9 (February, 1962), but when DC editors decided to reprise that story, some alterations had to be made. According to the original version, the five charter JLAers were Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter, and Wonder Woman, who under recently revised DC hiistory and continuity had never met the Justice League of America! An eleventh hour editorial decision brought Black Canary into the group in place of the Amazon Princess. Nevertheless, the fundamental story, involving would-be alien conquerors, remains as was.


 * So, I think we need to make this clear (though probably footnoted). Especially since they now seem to be backpedalling on Wonder Woman as well... - jc37 15:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * At the time of that issue, post-crisis, the Golden Age Superman was no longer in continuity.. It was definitely the Byrne Superman in that issue. The stance on Superman was that the Man of Steel miniseries had occured in the past and that he had limited appearances prior to his appearances with the JLA between MOS and his new series. Batman Y1 was published at that time, but was always supposed to be retroactive continuity and didnt erase his other appearances. WW on the other hand did appear for the first time in Legends. I have all these issues. And yes that is the second Canary in Secret Origins. Spanneraol (talk) 15:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This thread's about BC and WW, so I think we should probably stay on topic. My apologies for introducing the tangent. That said, there are references that contradict your opinion, both on Batman, and Superman. But I think for this list page at least, that's probably unnecessary to note. - jc37 15:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Jc37 notwithstanding, the thread is not about anything but whether BC is currently considered a founding member of the JLA, not about WW at all. Superman has been discussed even more than the Amazon has. Secret Origins #1 having the Golden Age Supes' origin proves nothing about Jc37's claim that the SO JLA origin was careful about which version of him they were dealing with, as on #1's text page Roy Thomas expressly stated he was given permission to give that version a special send-off. Only Byrne's Superman was being used anywhere in DC Comics at this time. A great deal of what Jc37 brings up is stuff from much later (e.g., "[Clark] and Lois not yet married"; that wedding didn't even happen until the mid '90s, concurrent with the run of TV's Lois and Clark), in other words retconning. And the point here is a line in the article stating that this origin is still in continuity. All the "backpedalling" he refers to is, again, retconning, contradicting the claim that this story is still in continuity. The post-Crisis claim never was that Superman started his career right then, as was the case with WW. However, the JLA origin did retain the early '60s setting, well before Supes or Bats were now acknowledged to be on the scene. BTW, as for the latter, they did "erase [much] of his other appearances", just not to the extent they did with WW. The DC "powers that be"'s position on Bats is ridiculous, as he has far too much back-story to be "under thirty" like Superman, including a former kid sidekick (expressly said to be picked up in Bruce's third year as Batman; see Batman: Year 3) then in his mid 20s. But that was the position, so he wasn't around when the League was formed in the 1960s, then twenty-five years or so back. Oh, yes, I'll withdraw my claim that it was the elder BC in that story, based on Spanneraol's assertion. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as the "sliding 10/12/15" tangent goes... on the face of it, this is a case of "selective" updating and editorial fiat in 1986. Just the broad points:
 * Secret Origins mandate, IIRC, was to flip between "Golden Age" and "Silver Age"/Modern characters. And the that the first hand full of GAers were the characters "lost" in Crisis.
 * Most of the reboots and retellings of origins were set at the far end of that span. This includes the JLA in SO, Man of Steel, and "Year One".
 * Again, IIRC the editorial fiat with Superman and Batman was to keep the character, as much as possible, out of continuity for other books. I believe the reasoning was that DC wanted to give Byrne mostly free reign in re-developing Superman and that Batman didn't "fit" the titles that were heavy on super powers.
 * Specifically with the JLA SO story, given the "sliding 10-ish", the events in the story would have been set in the mid-late 1970s and there would have been a desire to retain as much of the original visuals as possible. (And we really don't need the train wreck conversation of the JSA's off-spring dobs at this point...)
 * So, the salient points we've got are:
 * The 1960 1st appearance gave the core team as 5 - Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Wonder Woman.
 * The 1962 origin story set up the League with 7 founding members - the 5 from the Brave and the Bold along with Batman and Superman. It also left the these two as "reserve" members. Even though they became regular members by the team got its own book in 1961
 * The 1988 story re-worked the 1962 story based on editorial dictates which:
 * Removed Wonder Woman since her new continuity had her first appearing "now" not "10-ish years ago".
 * Replaced her with the second Black Canary, just starting out following in her mother's footsteps.
 * Reduced Superman and Batman from even being "reserve members".
 * The 1998 story just clarified and expanded some of the plot points of the 1988 story.
 * The 2007 story integrated the 1962 and 1988 stories. This resulted in:
 * A core team of 5 - Aquaman, Black Canary, Flash, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter.
 * Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman being treated as "founders".
 * The trio later becoming full time members.
 * Aside from the year typo, I think the revised text I posted up thread fixes the concerns over the last line in the "Various origins of the Justice League" section.
 * - J Greb (talk) 23:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey people in current continuity Black Canary is not a founding member. Issue 13 of the current Justice League makes that quite clear. And isssue 33 Black Canary states that Hal Jordan is the onl founding member of the League currently on the team. She is not a founding member, she was, but she isn't now. Can I make that clear now without my text being removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.68.91.63 (talk) 22:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I have to say that I found that the IP's flat statement in his edit that this was according to recent issues of JL, and one in particular, left J Greb's edit summary comments in his reversions less than justified. Granted, I have no idea just what is in those issues, but Greb wasn't claiming to know, either. Maybe that should be reworked as a ref. cite. Furthermore, if this is true, then the statement that the late 80s Secret Origins version is still in continuity goes out the window, no matter what DC's powers-that-be insist. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * By the numbers?
 * Justice League of America #12 has at least one major problem - Metzler choice of narrators puts the frame narration in question. The final reads is he wrote the story he wanted, without regard to if it fit with or not.
 * With #13... I can't find a ref to the origin story or initial characters.
 * And #33... hasn't shipped yet. I can see the point with issue #31 though (Sorry, that got a skim when I got it. I missed the Canary's comment.)
 * Makes a degree of sense to look at rephrasing things in that section. But it's more along the lines of "Plot elements from the Justice League of America series move away from the version shown in 52." Though the more I think about, the more it seems the entire last 2 paragraphs and this need secondary sources. The bulk is hanging together as a group of drawn conclusions.
 * - J Greb (talk) 00:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

What is unclear about issue 12?(my mistake, I meant 12 not 13) it makes it perfectly clear that Superman, batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter are the founding members. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but it seems to me as if you simply want to believe Black Canary is a founding member despite all the evidence against it. And I said issue 33 when I should have said issue 31, in issue 31 Black Canary tells Superman and Wonder Woman that Hal Jordan is the only founding member of the league, in effect she said that she was not a founding member. Why are we still debating this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.229.22.98 (talk) 02:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Metzler, for whatever reason, had framing narration in 12 start as a conversation between the Martian Manhunter and Aquaman, in a 1960s style art and apparently set close to the founding. By the end of the issue the same two characters are continuing the conversation in the present. Metzler treats it as the same Aquaman through out, even though the art reflects the new "never-a-JLA-member" Aquaman. That becomes an internal inconsistancy in the issue, and brings into question if Metzler was redefining/resetting the JLA orging with it or being similarly inconsistant.
 * As far as still debating this... (sigh) It's really coming down to a lot of the article text in the section becoming statements that a difinative change has been made as opposed to the writers being less than consistant.
 * - J Greb (talk) 03:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In any event, we do seem to be agreed that the statement that the Secret Origins JLA origin (if not the Year One version) is still in continuity is wrong and therefore the passage does require rewriting. So will somebody who has a better grip on the situation than I do please do it? I swear to God that if somebody doesn't fix it soon, I'll just take the whole sunuvabitch out! --Ted Watson (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not just Metzler, Mcduffie(the current writer of the series) made it clear in issue 31 that Black Canary is not a founding member. At this point are all in agreement that the founding members in current continuity are the original founding members who are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash(Barry Allen), Green Lantern(Hal Jordan), Aquaman and Martian Manhunter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.68.91.225 (talk) 21:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

JLA Music record?
I seem to recall from my misspent youth that there was old vinyl of the Justice League in 33 rpm. There were songs - that even then, I recall, made me cringe as they did the roll call. Has anyone else here ever heard of that? - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  07:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I found a link for it, which doubles as a semi-review. I am not confident about the source, and will look for another, not adding this info to the article for now. The album was called "Songs and Stories About the Justice League of America" - Truly awful stuff, but as far as I know, the only album to be released, which is notable in and of itself. Thoughts? - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  07:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

skeleton member
Who is the JLA member that looks like an electrified skeleton? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCcomicslover (talk • contribs) 16:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Story arcs, miniseries, sagas
Do we really have to give detailed plot synopsis? I think we should focus on main points and leave detailed descriptions for articles concerning these stories itselves. Lesfer &#9742; 13:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Superman has to be the best member of the justice leauge... Do you agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.87.179.71 (talk) 00:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Justice League Antarctica
I have started an AFD for Justice League Antarctica, located at Articles for deletion/Justice League Antarctica. The original author does not edit since 2008, so it would be useless to tell him. Instead of that, I'm telling this here, at the parent topic of the article, in case some user is interested in providing opinions at it. MBelgrano (talk) 11:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

New proposal of Template
Hi, this is my proposal for the template of JL, based in the Avengers template.

Greetings to everybody.OscarFercho (talk) 00:18, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Founding Members
This has bothered me, but should we add a list of the founding members underneath the current members section in the sidebar? I'd like to take a poll. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 16:46 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Frankly, no. And the "current" roster should be pulled as well. The link to the list article is enough. - J Greb (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Questions about JLA teleporter
In what issues were the first appearances of the JLA teleporter pre-Crisis and post-Crisis? Who invented it or what technology was it based on, again, pre-Crisis and post-Crisis? I figured I'd have a better chance of getting an answer asking here rather than on the Reference Desk, since this is really specialized knowledge. Thanks. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 19:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

(Questions were crossposted to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics.) &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 19:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The teleporter first appeared in Justice League of America #78 (February 1970). In that issue, it was described as a "Thanagarian relativity beam," implying that Hawkman installed it. WaxTadpole (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Alien Invasion 3D....
Justice League: Alien Invasion 3D Should this be mentioned on the main page somewhere? If so where? I've already added it to the JL template, and also added the template to the ride page. Totally looking forward to riding it, seeing as I live downunder!!!! Colliric (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Top Importance?
There's a discussion on which comic-related articles should be listed as "Top Importance" on the importance scale, and I feel this article should not be included. If any user disagrees or wishes to contribute, please do so there. Argento Surfer (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Justice League Canada
JUSTICE LEAGUE CANADA in 2014: JLA Moves North of the Border http://www.newsarama.com/18751-justice-league-canada-in-2014-jla-moves-north-of-the-border.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.107.240.36 (talk) 21:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Crisis on Multiple Earths volume 6
which material collects Crisis on Multiple Earths volume 6?? Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League#Miscellaneous_reprints) we can read: Justice League of America #195-197, 207-209, 219-220, 231-232, 244 and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Society_of_America#Collected_editions) we can read: Justice League of America #195-197, 207-209, All-Star Squadron #14-15

what is true? --89.0.11.243 (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It's redundant and it repeats itself
Is it necessary to use the cover of Justice League #1 (Nov. 2011) twice in the same article?

Mtminchi08 (talk) 02:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Agh, we've had this issue for a long time. Before, we used the JLA (comic book) cover twice on this page, and now we're using the JL #1 (2011) cover twice instead. I don't think we necessarily need an image for the first infobox, but it might be a good idea to move file:Brave_bold_28.jpg from the article space to there instead. &#124;&#124; Tako (bother me) &#124;&#124; 02:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Ambiguous sentence
"The new Justice League of America is entirely separate from the main Justice League as they were formed by Amanda Waller and consists of Steve Trevor, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Catwoman, the new Green Lantern Simon Baz, Stargirl, Katana and Vibe". Problem is I can't tell whether this means that the new JLA was formed by Amanda Waller or that the main JL was. 86.149.142.215 (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The new one. I fixed it. MMuster, 26 November 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MMuster (talk • contribs) 15:03, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Split?
Ever since the new 52 happened Justice League & Justice League of America are now two different groups, so shouldn't they be split into two different articles? 176.249.146.158 (talk) 23:49, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Is the Justice League a secret society?
Should members of the JLA and Avengers be listed as fictional members of secret societies? CensoredScribe (talk) 16:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Do reliable sources commonly and consistently define the JLA and Avengers as members of secret societies? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Marvel Comics bit
I removed a few paragraphs concerning how the success of Justice League led to Marvel creating the Avengers. It was a ridiculous piece of off-topic waffling about some conversation on a golf course. I don't care if it's properly referenced, that material was of weak relevance.Kurzon (talk) 08:47, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

What is your reasoning behind why this information is off-topic? The story of how a team came to publication is recounted in this material you keep deleting. JosephSpiral (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Did you even read through that material, or are you just blindly reverting? The bit I deleted was about how the Justice League inspired the Avengers.  Specifically, it's arguing about the circumstances in which Goodman asked Lee to create the Avengers.  It's such minor trivia I wouldn't even include in the Avengers article.  Who gives a shit about some conversation on a golf course?Kurzon (talk) 13:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's excessive, and it doesn't belong in the PH section, but it's very relevant. In an article full of cruft, these paragraphs are some real-world material that gives the subject some concrete notability. The golf course bit seems extraneous in the first paragraph, but it's a vital detail a little later when another version of the story is discussed. The solution here is to trim and merge with the Award section into a Critical Reception and Reaction section, not full scale removal. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:16, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's NOT "very relevant". Those four paragraphs are not about the Justice League or DC Comics, they are about Marvel. Why are we wasting space on irrelevant trivia?Kurzon (talk) 03:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The cultural impact of Justice League is relevant to the Justice League page. It's bad form to revert the page discussion. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Since no one else wants to weigh in, I trimmed off the excess and moved the content to a new "Cultural Impact" section. Does this address your concerns about it being off-topic, User:Kurzon? Argento Surfer (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I can accept this compromise. At least you took out the useless bit about the golf course conversation.  Christ.Kurzon (talk) 18:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

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Infobox Image
The infobox image has been updated to better depict the team. The current image is a frontal view showing their costumes, while the previous image was mostly a profile view of their faces. DrRC (talk) 02:37, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

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Infobox
Do not change the infobox picture without consensus from the talk page. DrRC (talk) 19:14, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Navbox has a link that goes to the wrong place
The Justice League Navbox has a link to Amos Fortune which goes to the wholly unrelated historical person, not the comic book character. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benevolent Prawn (talk • contribs) 01:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Major super heroes missing from the roll call list
What happened to Red Tornado? Zantana? The Shazam Family (you have four Green Lanterns but only Shazam and not all of his Shazam crew?) and what about Black Canary (regular on the Justice League comics book issues)? Dr. Fate? There are some more, like about a dozen I dont remember their names but have been consistently featured in comic book editions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:5B02:7038:8D0F:3261:46E3:BDBB (talk) 03:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Awards
Are these awards really notable? Are these, like, the comics equivalent of the Oscars? I've never heard of these awards, I don't know how they're given, and therefore I don't get any insight from them. I know about the Oscars; if a movie wins Best Picture, that means something to me. What do these awards mean to you? What could they mean to other readers? Kurzon (talk) 15:26, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The Alley Awards were the first awards in the comic industry. They were created by, voted on, and awarded by fans, and they're covered in most books on comic history from the 60s or 70s. Any reader who doesn't know what they are can follow the link to Alley Award for background. I think that Justice League being well enough liked for the Award program to have a question devoted to who the best artist was for the team shows how fast and how strongly it was popular. That seems very relevant to this article. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2021 (UTC)