Talk:Justin Wilson (racing driver)

Another Justin Wilson
I don't know how important the auto racer Justin Wilson is,  but there is another Justin Wilson, a Cajun cookbook author and humourist who deserves a place in Wikipedia. Go see www.justinwilson.com
 * The driver, to me, deserves the primary disambig. violet/riga (t) 19:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Where is he from?
I am unhappy that it says he is from Sheffield, as I am 99.9% sure he is from Rotherham. I cannot find anywhere that says this plainly, so this must be checked by someone else.

In the Q & A bit on his website he says he is from Woodall. It's got a Sheffield post code but it's really east of Sheffield and South of Rotherham. For the sake of clarity I'd suggest leaving it as Sheffield! http://www.justinwilson.co.uk/site.php?section=2&part=read&question=47

He may well have been born in Sheffield, as that is the place with the nearest maternity hospital, but his home village, Woodall, is definitely in the Metropolitan Borough of Rotherham - see Harthill, South Yorkshire (Most Rotherham areas have a Sheffield postcode) Jud 22:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Justin was born in Rotherham general hospital and lived in Kimberworth, Rotherham before then moving to Micklebring, Rotherham. The family then moved to Woodhall, Sheffield. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.26.81.242 (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for leaving Jaguar
The article only states that he was dropped for financial reasons and ignores the fact he was rather disappointing during his time with the team. I know most articles tend to be slightly kind to the person being described, but I feel that as this is an encyclopedia such information should be included. At the moment the only source I have is rather poor http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:a4cDNJGkbfYJ:www.f1rejects.com/centrale/2003/review/others/index.html+justin+wilson+suzuka+2003&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=37&gl=uk (note: And, worst of all, he was no more impressive in the Jaguar than Pizzonia had been) however looking at the relevant results shows that this was indeed the case. Any thoughts as to what should be added? Spenalzo (talk) 01:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason no one has found more credible sources for the information you put forth 7 years ago is because it simply does not exist. He had 5 races for Jaguar, 3 of which ended in mechanical failure, meaning it was at no fault of the driver like an accident or collision would be, while the other two times, he beat Mark Webber once (and got a point) and Webber beat him once. Twirly Pen  ( Speak up ) 04:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

2009
He seems to be out of a job now, but no word on that anywhere. Just his omission in the NHL driver listing - they have 3 drivers listed in teh Indycar section for 2009 and none is Justin...--Amedeo Felix (talk) 13:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Best Finish?
In both the IZOD Indycar series and Champ car series, Wilson is listed as having won several races, but his Best Finishes are listed as 9th and 2nd, respectively. Is this referring to the championship? If so, it needs clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.72.6 (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Really?
This article states: "a nose cone from Sage Karam's crashed car collided with Wilson's head" Just how many nose cones does a race car have - should be "the." Also, "collided with" doesn't sound right - struck would be better. It also hit his helmet, not his head directly (although I guess it could have penetrated). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.16 (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, when I wrote it, it was sort of a spur of the moment thing since the crash had happened a few hours earlier. It's been reworded.  Zappa  24  Mati   04:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Tallest F1 driver?
in the opening paragraph it says "To date, he is the tallest person to have raced in Formula One" but there is no reference for that. Can either a citation needed tag be addded, or a reference given. 194.28.124.55 (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅  Zappa  24  Mati   04:03, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Birthplace
Although commonly misreported as being from Sheffield, Woodall is actually in Rotherham. Some sources are more accurate such as http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2015-08-25/family-tribute-to-justin-wilson/ which correctly say Rotherham. I suppose someone may identify themselves as being from somewhere they weren't techincally born in. Not sure how we deal with these cases. --74.57.221.101 (talk) 17:28, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * , another editor changed the city of birth from Sheffield to Rotherham. I decided to revert this edit back to Sheffield based on the following on Wilson's web site at http://www.justinwilson.co.uk/
 * "Hailing from Sheffield, England, Wilson began karting at the age of nine..."and
 * "Since joining the IndyCar Series in 2008, the driver from Sheffield, England..."
 * "Originally from Sheffield, England, Wilson currently resides in Erie, Colorado, a little over half an hour north of Denver."
 * "A native of Sheffield, England, Wilson recorded seven career Indy car victories..."
 * There is also Where is he from? is earlier on this talk page.


 * In terms of how we deal with these cases. Unfortunately, template:Infobox racing driver is silent on what to use for the birth_place field. I did a quick scan but can't find a earlier discussion for any of the infobox templates where this was brought up. As you noted, some people identify themselves as being from somewhere they weren't born in. We don't know if that was the case with Wilson. --Marc Kupper&#124;talk 19:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In all cases, convention at the F1 WikiProject is to use actual birthplace for the birthplace field. Anything else opens up a can of worms in hundreds of cases. Where a driver is from is another matter, and a subject for the text of the article, with appropriate sources. By all accounts, Wilson's birthplace is Sheffield. Woodall is indeed in Rotherham, but Wilson wasn't born there. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Tallest F1 driver: untrue claim
While there is indeed a source claiming Wilson was the tallest ever Formula One driver, I have removed this as Hans Joachim Stuck is taller than Wilson. Justin Wilson was 193 cm (6 ft 3 in) tall. Hans Joachim Stuck is (or at least used to be) 194 cm (6 ft 4 in) tall. --SpeedKing (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Great. Thanks for the sources.  Pyrop e  18:19, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090224122805/http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-justin-wilson-joins-dale-coyne-says-miller to http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-justin-wilson-joins-dale-coyne-says-miller/
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Mention of Sage Karam in the lead
The fine details as to where the debris came from and how it was launched into Wilson's path are adequately explained in the body of the article. For the purposes of the lead however, all that's relevant and important is that he was struck by debris. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 20:15, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you - I think the brief inclusion of two more words (amounting to 17 entire characters of markup) is not excessive detail at all, and removing it from the lede does not strike me as an improvement. It's not as if it's devoting an entire sentence to the issue. Given that it's been in the lede in some varying forms since the accident, you'll need a clear editorial consensus to remove it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The fact that it's in the highly visible lead gives it WP:UNDUE weight ("An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject"). His name should not be mentioned unless it is absolutely necessary, which it is not, since you yourself say he cannot control where the debris flies off to. Furthermore, since it involves a living person, it becomes a BLP issue by default and therefore the part mentioning his name should be removed unless a clear consensus forms to restore it. If I had been active on wikipedia in 2015, I would be making these same arguments. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 00:36, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you have something all backward - this is not a "BLP issue." The material is not unsourced, poorly-sourced, or potentially defamatory - it's a simple fact of accident, or accident of fact. I would invite you to open a request for comment if you would like to get broader input - if there's consensus that it doesn't need to be in the lede, then that consensus will prevail. But I think the article is fine how it is. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:50, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you at least bother to answer to answer the question as to why it is absolutely necessary to include his name? You're flirting with 3RR now. GhostOfDanGurney (talk)
 * Also, my comment about WP:UNDUE, please answer that as well instead of reverting. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 00:57, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It's an unambiguous historical fact of the accident, it's clearly relevant to secondary sources exploring the ramifications of the accident, and it's not undue to simply mention the name - I agree with you that any further extensive discussion of the crash would be undue for the lede. As for your absolutely necessary construction, I simply disagree with you - there is no such requirement, even if I was to agree that it is not absolutely necessary, that does not justify unilateral removal of well-sourced statements which might merely be necessary. Again, I invite you to open an RFC; if there's a consensus that it doesn't belong in the lede, then I shall of course yield to that consensus. But right now, a WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS clearly exists for material which has been in the article, unchallenged, for more than half a decade. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

RFC on lead section
Should this article say in the lead that it was Sage Karam's car specifically that the debris that struck Wilson came off of? GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 02:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I am responding to this RfC as someone who knows next to nothing about racing other than what I've read in this article. From my perspective, the article is about Justin Wilson.  As such, mentioning the driver whose debris killed him would only be relevant if that driver was considered to be at fault-- that is, if he had murdered him or been negligent or otherwise actively caused Justin's death... but from what I can tell, it's not that the other driver actively caused Justin's death, but simply that racing is an extremely dangerous sport and this is one of the hazards of racing.  The information in detail is available in the article, but emphasizing the other driver's name puts WP:UNDUE weight on this fact.  He wasn't murdered, he died in the regular course of the dangerous sport.  I would say do not include the name in the lead, but certainly keep it in the main body of the article.  Otherwise, we're implying fault, and that's just not the case here. Fieari (talk) 07:13, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * No. I was about to detail the reasoning of my suggestion but I see Fieari beat me to it. So, now, I can only point to it. We should not imply guilt. -The Gnome (talk) 08:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I would strongly disagree we are impling fault. The lead makes it clear that Wilson was killed by flying debris. The only way a reader could reach the conclusion that we are impling fault is if the reader was under the illusion that Karam had control of where the debris was headed - which he didn't. SSSB (talk) 08:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC)


 * No. It's not relevant to the lead whose debris it was. Per Fieari, if Karam had been negligent or otherwise at fault, then perhaps. It's relevant to the description in the article body of the accident itself, but not to the lead. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:56, 4 October 2021 (UTC)


 * No - Per above reasoning. As it stands, the lede gives the impression of fault on the part of Karam regarding the death of Wilson. No issue with this being discussed in relevant section of the body. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:54, 5 October 2021 (UTC)


 * No - We should err on the side of caution when it comes to such a potential WP:BLP issue. It's also a relatively trivial detail to include in the lede. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:35, 6 October 2021 (UTC)


 * No - I don’t agree with the BLP reason, but it does not belong in lead per guidance of WP:LEAD as the other person just is not a major part of that section or the story. The WEIGHT of coverage is mostly “debris” and “head injury”, so just follow the RS and don’t lead with other names.  My own view is that debris and head impact are also the parts that mattered most.  Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:11, 6 October 2021 (UTC)


 * No - as I explained above, I compelety reject the argument that mentioning Karam implies guilt. However, the lead should limit its self to the major talking points of the article. Whose debris it was is not a major talking point (as no-one was found to be at fault). SSSB (talk) 14:42, 6 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I would have no problem with a WP:SNOW closure here - there's a pretty clear emerging consensus to omit Karam's name from the lede, and thus I withdraw my objection to the change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2021 (UTC)


 * No - It is not relevant what cars debris hit him, Sage was not at fault.Tepkunset (talk) 14:32, 8 October 2021 (UTC)