Talk:Kölsch (beer)/Archive 1

Reinheitsgebot
Koelsch is an ale, and as such does not fall under the provisions of the Reinheitsgebot (i.e. fermentables other than barley are permitted; and small amounts of wheat malt are used in some examples of the style). Further, the Reinheitsgebot is no longer enforceable law, having been repealed in favor of the Provisional German Beer Law of 1993. I suggest that the statement that Koelsch-style ales brewed outside the Cologne region are not guaranteed to comply with the Reinheitsgebot be removed accordingly. 74.230.134.127 (talk) 22:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Reinheisgebot did apply to top-fermented beers, it's just that the rules were slightly different, allowing non-barley malt and sugar. The Provisional German Beer Law is effectively the same as the Reinheitsgebot and in Germany is often still referred to as such.Patto1ro (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Might it be better to re-word or expand the section in question to indicate that Kölsch-style ales brewed outside the Cologne area are not guaranteed to use the same ingredients and brewing processes and might therefore differ in their taste profile?

I suggest the following phrasing:

''While the labeling of these brews as Kölsch may be legal in local law, it is certainly misleading, as Kölsch-style ales brewed outside the Cologne area are not guaranteed to use the same ingredients and brewing processes, and might therefore differ in their flavor and aroma profile. Further, they may not be compliant with the Provisional German Beer Law, the current implementation of the Reinheitsgebot.'' 74.230.134.127 (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Brauerei zur Malzmühle
I have a picture of the place where Clinton sat, and of the brewery from the outside. It's actually kind of like a restaurant, but they serve beer as well. I have a closeup of the photo on the wall with Clinton in it, but I am going to guess it's not under a Wiki-friendly license, unless it was taken by people who were working for the US government when they had the camera in hand. I also got to shake hands with the waiter who was in the photo with Clinton. Pretty cool. -Ich 19:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Are the annual consumption figures quoted in hectolitres or litres? Both are mentioned: both can't be right &mdash; surely? Lancevortex 15:59, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good point - my mistake... it should be hectoliters throughout, so I've corrected the article accordingly. --Pteron 18:10, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wow! That was quick! Lancevortex 15:43, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Volume Percentage of Alcohol
Contrary to popular belief outside of Cologne, Kölsch is not weak. It has 4.8 % alcohol, so has Pils, so has Altbier. It, maybe, tastes lighter than other German beers, which is a common trap for non-locals misjudging the drink's effect on their ability to speak and stand up. -- Guido, from Cologne, not logged in.


 * As far as I know most other German beers have the same percentage of alcohol. It is true that Kölsch tastes lighter, and is reportedly easier to drink (or rather, faster), which is INDEED a trap for foreigners.


 * Foreigners tending to get drunk faster when dealing with Kölsch is also related to the size of a Kölsch glass, which, with the traditional 0.2 litres, is a lot smaller than a "real" one and leads to people not familiar with them misjudging the amount they drink and also the rate at which they drink it (just gulping down a few glasses of Kölsch may seem like an easy thing to do, but it can easily shorten the evening).


 * I've edited the statement about Kölsch being weaker out until someone can come up with figures to prove it. Most Kölsch beers I know of are no weaker than any other common type of beer. --Ashmodai 19:04, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Probably since because Kölsch is not a strong beer, people consider it weak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.134.14.216 (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ich bin ein Kölsch
Some quick googling shows a bit of controversy on whether Clinton actually said this, and what he would have meant by it if he did: "I am a Kölsch beer" vs. "I am from Cologne." Does anyone have more detail on this? It's funny if true :) Ubermonkey 14:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I read some news reports about Clinton's visit of the Malzmühle, but that joke is not mentioned anywhere. It must have been invented afterwards by some funny guy, but not by Clinton himself, so I deleted that from the article. -- 84.176.77.235 08:30, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * IIRC that line has been in several newspapers across Cologne. The general story is that after he visited the Malzmühle brewery, he stated "Ich bin ein Kölsch" ("I am a Kölsch (beer)") in good humour towards the deceased JFK, very well knowing what that line actually meant.
 * Unless someone decides to visit the mess the Cologne newspaper archives are, I don't think we'll find out whether this joke is correctly attributed to Clinton or is just another urban legend. Ashmodai 12:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

"Illegal" to brew Koelsch in the US and Japan?
The following line caught my eye:

"Many brands are illegally brewed abroad on a small scale - especially in the U.S. and Japan."

There are several microbrews in the US that brew beers that they label as "Koelsch" (with the umlaut that I am too lazy to type). Does the above quoted sentence mean to imply that these brewers could be charged with a crime if they ever traveled to Germany? I think it's more likely that the labeling laws apply to Germany (and probably to the EU as well) but not to the US. If all European food labeling laws were enforceable abroad, I wouldn't be able to buy "Mozzarella" and "Cheddar" cheeses made in Wisconsin from my supermarket. Unless I'm mistaken, brewing Koelsch in the US isn't any more illegal than driving on the left side of the road is in Britain.


 * I think "illegal" does describe the Europeans' view on the use of Protected designations of origin outside the EU quite well. I'm no legal expert, but I suspect that those brewers could, theoretically, be charged if they traveled to Europe. In practice, their names are probably unknown, so they would only run into trouble, if they tried to import some of their "Kölsch" into the EU.
 * As far as I know, Mozzarella is not a protected designation of origin, but a more generic term. EU only regulates the ingredients and the production process of products named "Mozarella", similar to "wine". On the other hand, give the aweful stuff Americans label "Mozarella", it would be a good idea to fine these criminals as well.--Qualle (talk) 08:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "While the labeling of these brews as Kölsch may not be illegal in local law, it is certainly misleading, because they are neither from Cologne nor are they guaranteed to comply with the Reinheitsgebot."


 * It's really not misleading to most Americans. America has a tradition of labeling domestically produced foods after the foreign foods they are made to taste like.  This is not meant to confuse consumers, and Americans understand this.  When they want the real thing, they specifically look for the country of origin on the packaging (which is usually prominantly displayed).  Almost all beer brewed outside the US and sold in the US has "IMPORTED" on the label.  "Koelsch" in the US is just shorthand for "Koelsh-style Ale".

its the same with champaign sorry if i spell it wrong but you are only allowed to call it champaign if it was made in champaign region.

Wheat Beer
I'm not really a brewing expert, but my understanding is that Kölsch derives from Wiess and *not* from Wheat Beer so I clarified that wikilink. -- Mabuse 15:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

bad link päffgen
I noticed that the link called "päffgen" actually leads to the brewery "pfaffen". This may be only a small difference as far as the writing is concerned - but a big one if you remind that "pfaffen bier" is no kölsch at all! AFAIK the "pfaffen" brewery is lead by the brother of the "päffgen"-owner. There was a controversy between the two brothers wich ended in a seperation. The brother who had left "päffgen" founded his own beer brand but was not allowed to call it kölsch because it is brewed outside of cologne. Today the "brauereiausschank zum pfaffen" is the only pub at the "Alter Markt" in cologne or maybe in the whole historic city center where you can't get a kölsch - but a beer wich looks and tastes like one. greetz from kölle! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.249.92 (talk • contribs) 13:41, 2 February 2007


 * Thank you for your comments (please be sure to sign them in the future with the four tildes) -- you are indeed correct about the beer from the orange house at the corner of the Alter Markt not being Kölsch. The word "Original" on the Stengen (prohibited by the Konvention), together with its darker color and maltier, sweeter taste convinced me (so I do not agree with you that "Pfaffen" looks and tastes like Kölsch -- its darker, sweeter, and maltier). During my first visit in April, 2004, a local at my table was complaining -- the beer didn't meet his expectations. I genuinely believe this confusion is hurting one of the most traditional brewers of Kölsch. And their Aldstadt Ausschank is ca. 100 meters away! Accordingly, I have reverted the link to point to the correct brother. Lovibond (talk) 01:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Kolsch is not Wiess and Wiess is not Kolsch
Someone put a posting on the Kolsch page that indicates it should be merged with the Wiess page. I recommend not doing that. If you read more about the history and character of each one, you will find that they are different and should stay that way. Kolsch is a very modern invention coming from the late 1800s whereas Wiess beer is the earlier less refined sort of beer. The difference can be compared to the difference between Stout & Porter. They are not the same, although they may share many commonalities.

Trentjohnson 01:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Kölsch can only be called Kölsch if it is produced by a brewery which has a view of the Kölner Dom
This is definetly not right, the only brewweries which are allowed to brew Kölsch have to in Cologne OR be member of the "Kölner Verbund". Zunft Kölsch is produced in Wiehl which is about 50 kilometers away from cologne. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ropadr (talk • contribs) 22:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

This is not right as well. The "Kölner Verbund" is not a organisation of breweries but one brewerie, wich has bought many other Kölsch brands and is now prducing them in one brewerie in Köln-Mühlheim. Kölsch may only be called so, if it is produced in Cologne or a certain radius, im not excactly certain, but I think it is 30km. An exception is made for those breweries, which already produced Kölsch before the breweries agreed on the Kölsch-Konvention. This covers the before mentioned "Zunft Kölsch". I sadly can't give you sources, but since I am a Kölsch brewer, I think I can trust my knowledge. 80.145.239.236 (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2009 (UTC) Kai

Protection of "Kölsch"
Kölsch is protected as PGI (Protected Geographical Indication) in the EU -> http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/qual/en/463_en.htm, the explanation of what may be called Kölsch is under http://www.koelner-brauerei-verband.de/html/koelschdatei/konv_text.htm (in German). It says "Kölsch is only produced in the area of Köln or by a brewery that has been producing Kölsch before this definition". Unfortunately, I'm neither too fluent in English or Wikipedia, so I didn't edit the article.

FF,

87.184.146.253 21:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Where are the infos from?
"but which is ironically also produced by all the major breweries in Cologne" <= That is very very wrong, I bet NO breweries in Cologne, which produce Kölsch, will also produce "Alt"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.246.235 (talk) 15:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The only Alt brewed in Cologne is made by the brewpub Braustelle http://www.braustelle.com/ Patto1ro (talk) 17:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct. The Hansa Brauerei from Dortmundt is producing both Alt and Kölsch. But due to the restrictions their Kölsch is produced in Cologne under license...so, here we are again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.44.234.230 (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How is it pronounced? Like kolsh (long o, like in hole) or kelsh? Or something else entirely? 128.231.88.7 (talk) 16:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Like "Kerlsh" but with a British English accent (i.e. don't pronounce the "r"). Lancevortex (talk) 10:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Spelling of Wiess
I clarified that the spelling of "Wiess" is actually correct in the article. There has been some confusion in the edits of this page about this. While "weiss" is the correct high German spelling for "white," the name "Wiess" derive from the Cologne dialect, in which the word is pronounced "wiess." Cheers, Mabuse (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC) (Incidentally, Wiess now redirects to this Koelsch entry. Shouldn't the term have its own entry? At least it did a while ago. Mabuse (talk))
 * Awesome. People "correct" this all the time, unfortunately. Dunkelweizen (talk) 02:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no "correct" spelling of "Wiess" od "Wieß", since there are no official rules for the correct spelling of the kölsch dialect. Using the high german spelling rules, the spelling "Wieß" would be most fitting to the pronounciation. 80.145.239.236 (talk) 22:36, 7 January 2009 (UTC)Kai

Ale/Lager/yeast discussion in intro
Curious - why is the point belabored that Kölsch is an ale and its yeast is an ale yeast? Not only does this seem irrelevant, it's also a little controversial. Kölsches are fermented warm, then lagered at cold temperature. Even American homebrewing literature acknowledges this--as Ray Daniels has pointed out, brewing manuals as recent as the twentieth century refer to top-fermenting lagers, and Kölsch is one of them (see, for example, Designing Great Beers 127ff). If this ale/lager dichotomy is false, why belabor it when it isn't even the matter at hand? I plan to simplify the introductory paragraph to thin out some of this extraneous and questionable detail, but I figured I should fire a warning shot first, in case anyone feels especially strongly about the matter. Dunkelweizen (talk) 00:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It is relevant because it is one of relatively few examples of German barley ales (and Ray Daniels identifies it as such). Virtually all other beers in Germany are lagers or wheat beers. The distinguishing factor is the type of yeast used, not what is done with the beer after fermentation. Several ales are commonly lagered, and some lagers are not lagered (i.e. cold-conditioned after fermentation) at all. Recently, the term "hybrid beers" has been used to describe Kölsch and other such examples, but it still belongs to the ale category. 68.214.126.214 (talk) 02:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)