Talk:Kārewa / Gannet Island

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Requested move 18 February 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  07:23, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Gannet Island (New Zealand) → Karewa / Gannet Island – Launching a full move request to establish consensus due to an earlier move being reverted. The proposed name has been the official name of the island since 2002, before which the name was an earlier convention of dual name (Gannet Island (Karewa), with the Māori name in brackets instead of separated by a slash as it is currently). Every source cited by this article has either the current name of Karewa / Gannet Island or the earlier form of Gannet Island (Karewa), as does the official NZ Geographic board gazetteer of place names. The proposed name is also consistent with WP:NZNC guidelines for dual place names and aligns with the dozens of articles about New Zealand geographic features which have dual place names, including Aoraki / Mount Cook, Whakaari / White Island and Lake Ellesmere / Te Waihora. It is also consistent with multiple move requests which I have made for dual place names in the past, which were passed with unanimous support (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), which establish a precedent for the move and are why I initially made the move as an uncontroversial proposal in line with the instructions in Requested moves. Turnagra (talk) 05:34, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Support The first thing I did was to check the Gazetter as a move to an official dual name is uncontroversial. Yes, this name has been the official one since 2002. Hence the proposed move aligns with the consensus that we have established for these cases; no question.  Schwede 66  15:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Even as long ago as 1972 R. T. Vernon's local history book, 'Te Mata - Te Hutewai the Early Days' said, "On the western side, Karewa or Gannet Island lies about 10 miles out in the Tasman". Johnragla (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:14, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 4 September 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Reasonable common-name and concision-vs.-precision arguments on both sides mean I can't extract a consensus out of this divided discussion. The primary-topic question got very little attention here, so I don't see a consensus to move Gannet Island to Gannet Island (disambiguation) either; feel free to start a separate RM on that issue at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:43, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

– Per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and MOS:SLASH; now that WP:NZNC has been amended to remove the requirement to use official names, it is time to revert this erroneous move. Google News shows 10 results for "Gannet Island", and no results for any dual name (the sole result that mentions both does so as separate names, rather than as a single name). Google Scholar has a similar result, with 25 suitable results for Gannet Island, compared to 7 suitable results for any form of a dual name. In addition, this Gannet Island is the primary topic for Gannet Island, having been viewed twice as much as all other Gannet Islands put together over the past year. BilledMammal (talk) 13:44, 4 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:22, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Kārewa / Gannet Island → Gannet Island
 * Gannet Island → Gannet Island (disambiguation)
 * Oppose The current name avoids confusion with all the other Gannet Islands. It's also how it's referred to locally, as evidenced by the local history book I mentioned above and the photo I added to External links. Johnragla (talk) 17:24, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The local history book you mentioned above uses both names, rather than the dual name (Karewa or Gannet Island). Per Multiple local names we should only choose a dual name when it is actually what English-speakers call the place, and thus an example of both being mentioned doesn't support a move to the dual title. BilledMammal (talk) 00:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose You really need to stop trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS with this crusade of yours. Per the gazetteer, the island has never been officially known by simply "Gannet Island" - as with most dual place names, previous names would be recorded there. We've got sources dating back fifty years showing use of the dual name, which makes it pretty unambiguous. But in terms of the "sources" you've found, for the 31 results under "Gannet Island":
 * 4 appear relevant (though I can't access two of these, so I'm taking those as good faith assumptions)
 * 10 refer to other Gannet Islands (three of which seem to be novels)
 * 3 predate the name change
 * 2 aren't in English
 * 4 are PhD theses and thus "care should be exercised" - one of which refers to an island in South Africa and is irrelevant
 * There are also 8 sources which don't use the dual name but are government published, so by your own admission we need to discount them. As for the Kārewa / Gannet Island results:
 * 8 appear relevant (though I note that one of them, while not dated, looks older than 2002)
 * 1 can't be accessed (and may predate the name change based on when in 2002 it came out)
 * 1 is referring to another island (it's getting flagged because both Motutākupu / Gannet Island and Karewa Island are mentioned)
 * 1 is a PhD thesis
 * 1 is a research commission in support of the Waitangi Tribunal which discusses a semi-historical figure called Karewa (who was forced into the ocean and became the island in question). You could probably lean either way as to whether this is relevant
 * 3 aren't in English
 * So I'm not really sure what you're getting at when you claim that the majority of sources are favouring your preferred name. Even if we take a generous interpretation, a majority of relevant and allowable sources prefer the dual name. I suspect there are also more than a few which just refer to the island as "Kārewa", but given the wide range of places which use a word like Karewa it's too difficult to filter through all the false positives. At any rate, the dual name is clearly the most suitable name and this needs to be put to bed quickly. I also think you should be notifying editors who engaged in the previous move request that you're proposing this, for the sake of transparency. Turnagra (talk) 21:21, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I believe in your eight that you consider to be relevant, you are counting three that are duplicates, and are not using the dual name but are instead using Karawa in reference to the historical name, and clarifying it with the modern name; It has been suggested that the main purpose of this legend is to make it clear that Karewa (Gannet Island) was once on land and so continues to mark the limits of tribal territory. Those need to be excluded.
 * I'll need to look over your conclusions about the Gannet Island scholarly papers, as I expect you've excluded some that should not be excluded. I also note you've ignored the news results, which overwhelmingly prefer Gannet Island. BilledMammal (talk) 00:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I trust you will also check the "Gannet Island" results for duplicates, which there definitely were (but which I still counted, so duplicates don't make any material difference).
 * I also think you're being disingenuous in your comments about dual name orthography. You know for a fact that there are a variety of ways which dual names are recorded - slashes (spaced or unspaced), parentheses, the use of "or", and even just spaced are all still in most cases use of the dual name. "Kārewa (Gannet Island)", "Gannet Island or Karewa", and "Karewa Gannet Island" are all just as much use of the dual name as "Kārewa / Gannet Island" is. That's why we've got WP:NZNC to ensure we're taking a consistent approach to them. Turnagra (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Gannet Island or Karewa" isn't a use of a dual name; it's clearly a use of both names. "Kārewa (Gannet Island)" can be a use of a dual name, but almost always isn't; instead, it's clarifying what the name means, usually because they choose to use an uncommon name, typically in a historical context.
 * For example, both "Cardiff or Caerdydd" and "Caerdydd (Cardiff)" are uses of two different names, rather than uses of a single dual name.
 * I agree that "Karewa Gannet Island" would usually be a use of a dual name. BilledMammal (talk) 00:54, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the NZGB and usage of dual names disagrees with you, and try as you might New Zealand English unfortunately doesn't bend to your will. You can't discount them just because you read them differently. Turnagra (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a source for this? BilledMammal (talk) 01:04, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Support As shown this is the primary topic, and the other pages already have sufficient disambiguators anyway, so there is no reason not to move this page to the shorter, and the English, title. --Spekkios (talk) 08:31, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Sigh - dual names are English, Spekkios. Turnagra (talk) 18:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Sigh - dual names are not English, Turnagra. --Spekkios (talk) 19:06, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 * They're a name developed by an English speaking government in an English speaking country for use in English documents, what language exactly do you think they are? Zulu? Turnagra (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * A dual name is composed of a Maori name and an English name. Half of the name is Maori, half is English. Only the English name is English unless the dual name has entered wider use, which in this case it has not. --Spekkios (talk) 22:01, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Comment since the nominator apparently isn't inclined to notify the editors who engaged in the previous discussion, pining Schwede66 and Ortizesp in case either of you would like to weigh in (noting that the third editor has already engaged above). Turnagra (talk) 18:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Clear common name in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The island is referred to relatively infrequently by any name, and because of confounding factors like the other Gannet Islands and another island called Karewa Island, the topic here seems unusually likely to be confusing for readers. Even within this RM discussion, there's been confusion about which landform was described as "Gannet Island" in various sources. Consequently, I think disambiguating the title with the dual name remains necessary to protect WP:RECOGNIZABILITY for readers. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Dual article titles are generally deprecated. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:14, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Dual article titles are generally deprecated have you got a source for this within the New Zealand context? Turnagra (talk) 19:22, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 4 March 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No apparent progress since the last RM. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 02:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Kārewa / Gannet Island → Gannet Island (New Zealand) – Per WP:NZNC, unpopulated places that require disambiguation should use the format "Placename (New Zealand)". Natural disambiguation is inappropriate here both because of that naming convention and because the current title is not commonly used; a Google News search finds no uses for it, while a search for "Gannet Island" finds eight. The proposed title also better conforms with MOS:SLASH, which recommends against using a slash because it suggests that the words are related without specifying how. The proposed title is more WP:RECOGNIZABLE as it leads with the common part of the name, and because readers are more likely to understand that this is the island in New Zealand if we disambiguate with "New Zealand" than if we disambiguate with "Kārewa". BilledMammal (talk) 05:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose - we've been through this one several times. Nothing has changed since the last time you proposed this, and there is no reason to keep relitigating it. The current title is suitably precise and there is no point in reverting to a less precise, less concise, less recognisable and less natural name. Turnagra (talk) 05:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The previous proposal was to make this article the primary topic; this proposal is to change the form of disambiguation to comply with WP:NZNC and WP:NATDAB. The proposed title is five characters longer, so slightly less concise, but it is equally precise, and as I explained it is more recognizable and the naturalness of the current title is debatable and insufficient per NATDAB. BilledMammal (talk) 05:26, 4 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose I can't see that there's been any change either. Johnragla (talk) 07:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Gannet Island (New Zealand) per nom or support Kārewa island ---   Tbf69   P &bull;&#32;T 11:18, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Neither of those are sufficiently precise, as there is another Gannet Island in New Zealand and a Karewa Island. Turnagra (talk) 18:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We only disambiguate between topics covered by Wikipedia; the other Gannet Island doesn't appear to have an article - it isn't mentioned on the disambiguation page for Gannet Island - and Gannet Island (New Zealand) redirects here. This Gannet Island also appears to be the clear primary topic for Gannet Island in New Zealand, with the other being very obscure. BilledMammal (talk)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support Gannet Island: This was shown to be the primary topic last time this request came up, so there is no need for disambugation. --Spekkios (talk) 04:53, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose No change since last nomination. Current name complies with WP:NZNC and distingishes it from other Gannet Island. ShakyIsles (talk) 03:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)