Talk:Kī-o-rahi

Attempt to manufacture references?
The author of this page inserted a reference to Elsdon Best's Games and Pastimes of the Māori. I have a copy of the book and there are no references in it to Ki-o-rahi or to support any of the statements in this article that he indicated were supported by Best. If page numbers are supplied to contradict this, I will have another look. In fact the only balls Best mentions are poi balls. Also, the author used as a reference A TV4 show by Murray Deaker in 2000. Sorry that is not a verifiable source - we need something that we can look up to verify it - and given the attempt with the Best references, it looks very much like this is a deliberate attempt to mislead and perhaps the author should receive other warnings. TV4 is a music channel for one thing, and Murray Deaker - well, nuff said. Anyone can say 'I saw it on TV seven years ago' - why should we believe it if we have no way to confirm it Kahuroa 00:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks like Kahuroa is setting himself up to be a gatekeeper of all Maori knowledge. I would sooner not have the work tainted by a neo-liberalist. His referring to words in 'authoritive dictionaries' is farcical because they do not include ancient terminology. Poi and ball are interchangeable terms, perhaps Kahuroa would be happier with 'paoro' :-). If you are wanting to look up contentious pastimes look no further than 'waka ama' and 'kapa haka' but that is another story. Most of the ki-o-rahi info comes from wananga, elders, uni based research etc I challenge you to find any historical records of waka ama and kapa haka ...good luck. Ma te wha. The game is doing ok here and internationally, I look forward to putting a moderate account on this site anew of ki-o-rahi and would sooner start from scratch, adding precise references that will be accepted.I go to Otago Uni where there are no people who have set themselves up as "know alls". There are also no books out on the subject that I have sourced which is in itself problematic. We play with a "ki" at uni, however I will be mindful that the "authoritive dictionaries" are void of ancient sports references and will lok up the appropriate modern term and use terms like "paoro". I will also ask kaumatua who have helped us to try and equate their terms with modern terminology. Which "authoritive" dictionary do you use? and if you look up the back of your Elsdon Best copy please let me know how many of those terms are in your dictionary please? Regards and apologies to you all for such sloppy work. Are magazines like Tu Mai and Mana magazine ok as references? and should I concentrate on the game itself rather than any history unknown by moderators here? I would like to write about 'tapu ae' also and wondered Kahuroa if you could kick that subject off, is it in your dictionary? It is another very old game, have you heard of it? PLease let me access data in your dictionary, we need to urgently notify students at Otago about restricting Maori usage to that "authoritive dictionary" only.One more question - Kahuroa, is Io part of Maori cosmology? (unsigned comment from User:Sossos)

Attacks on me are beside the point.The issue is whether or not there are any verifiable references to Ki-o-rahi as an ancient game, since that is what you have been claiming, and since Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. No more, no less. Kahuroa 05:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Kahuroa, could you please answer the questions which I feel are relevant to the subject. Namely which dictionary are you referring to as "authoritive" (so that archaic terms are not used in future)and to enlighten us all at Otago Uni, do you know of the game 'tapu ae'(since tapu ae is closely associated to ki-o-rahi), how many of the words used by Best in his reference section of games are included in your "authoritive" dictionary and do you believe 'Io' is part of Maori cosmology? Please don't get all defensive, I simply question your expertise in the area of Maori traditional games. I can not see why you regard this as a rant & rave? The questions seem quite relevant & reasonable. I gather you come from Tainui, it must come as a shock then, you as 'expert', the interview Dean Nathan did at Turangawaewae regarding ki-o-rahi - simply phone him an check?


 * Sossos, can you please sign your articles. Also please address the problem of the article. If you have sources about the origin of the game especially reference older than 20 or 30 years or so then please post them. It appears that some dubious sources were used originally in the construction of this article. If the sport really is hundreds of years old then there should be at least some written evidence of this, old newspapers articles, complaints from teachers about children wasting their time playing it, stuff like that. - SimonLyall 10:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * FYI Sossos, there are lots of references to 'kapa haka', and 'waka ama' in 19th century books and dictionaries, and their histories are well known, and Io also appears in 19th century texts. For authoritative dictionaries, make that any dictionary or book written prior to the last 20 years. And yes, of course any words in Best and all books like that are in the good dictionaries, which is why it is so surprising that there are no entries anywhere for Ki-o-rahi if it is an old game. Kahuroa 04:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Great you are an expert in the traditional Maori sports field. It should be easy for you then to supply just 1 reference to "waka ama" or even "kapa haka" in 19th century literature - lets see it, otherwise you have fallen into the same trap as 'Patu Hohepa', masquerading as an expert in a field you are out of depth in. With research we have done at Otago, over 50% of the games Best lists do not show up in any dictionary source. They survive and are disseminated via wananga. So your assertion that "any words" do is confirmation that you are not up to it in this field. Researching Maori games is not as simple as pushing a few buttons, you need to have a wairua in this context and do some footwork (e.g. attend marae wananga on the subject).sossos
 * I have no connection with this whatsoever. But on Wikipedia there are the policies No original research and Verifiability. Personal knowledge is irrelevant. Published sources are all that counts. If they are being disseminated by Wananga and not reported in print, then that's unfortunate - but here "verifiability, not truth" is the criterion. Otherwise, it's no more than rumour: Aweawe ana nga korero i runga o Te Piware.Gordonofcartoon 04:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is the dilemma here. The approach that Sossos is used to derives from another worldview. The founding policies that the Wikimedia Foundation requires of all the language Wikipedias make them unable to deal with other kinds of knowledge. I understand where Sossos is coming from, but I cannot change how Wikipedia works. Gordon, you took out the reference to that personal website, but I would like to put it back since it allows us to link to the rules of the game and the legend, as long as we note the disclaimer, without breaking the Wikipedia rules. That way I think we can do this subject a little more justice. And I have found a quote in Best that mentions the suppression of games, which adds weight to the idea that this game could be a survival, but unfortunately it doesnt mention Ki-o-rahi. Kahuroa 05:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep. Being in an unwritten tradition doesn't mean it's untrue, just that it's not the kind of information Wikipedia is set up to handle. As to that site, OK. It's always a difficult decision whether to link to a site that is partially reliable, but the rules page is certainly good. Gordonofcartoon 12:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Kia ora koutou! i do know something about this game. the term ki-o-rahi is a postmodern one having become popular post WWll. This is similar to the other pastimes mentioned such as waka ama which is also a pm term.Lots of revivals have employed pm terminology so the archaic terms are essential to any type of research. mauri ora, horritt (george B.)

ODT feature article added as ref
I added a website mentioned in todays ODT feature section, I don't think I can link the ODT article itself without a subscription. FYI University of Otago PE students are running a Ki-o-rahi tourney soon.Nankai 02:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Edits in Aug 2009
On August 1st I tried to edit the ki-o-rahi stub. It is woefully inaccurate and I would like to correct these misconceptions. A runanga on the East Coast, Ngati Porou Hauora are building a traditional ki-o-rahi field to celebrate 1000 yrs of ball playing in Aotearoa, see http://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/article/?id=13170 and I also wanted to make clear that traditional ball games and the art of making the traditional balls from harakeke can be found in a number of publications, including the Encyclopedia of Play in Society Today (Sage), but these were also wiped???? If you have a look at the original newspaper article from the NZ Herald, which the ki-o-rahi stub seems to be based on, it is terribly construed, you will find many blatant innacuracies including the King Movement origimating in the 1970s! I would like moderators on this site to consider whether their policies are being adhered to by whomever is wiped my information from the stub. Thankyou, Temepara. 4/08/09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Temepara (talk • contribs) 21:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The article just says "We’re trying to get a traditional ki-o-rahi field built in Uawa" not that is is built or in the actual process of building. The NZHerald article doesn't say that the King Movement was from the 1970s but that during the 1970s it pushed a resurgence in Maori activities. As for the rest of the post the BIG problem is that it really looks like the game was invented post-WW2 and an ancient history of it was made up, repeated, and in some cases believed. Please see other discussion on the talk page. Obviously if you can find actual documentation of older origins of the game that will change everything. For example many old newspapers are scanned and on the web and if Maori soldiers took it to Italy then this should be mentioned in published dairies and histories. We really need good sources, especially those that are older than the 1970s - SimonLyall (talk) 12:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

hello Simon, I'm sure you are well intentioned. In the literature I have read no one is disputing that ki-o-rahi has been developed from traditional ball games and that it is just like mau rakau and kapa haka in that it is a relatively modern term.

There just seems to be a fair bit of inconsistency with regards to what you legitimise as references. I tried to assist your ki-o-rahi blurb because it does not fit in with the Maori view point. For example Ngati Porou had two years of internal consultation and historical discussion relevant to their tribe before embarking on the building of a full sized, carved, traditional ki-o-rahi field at Uawa.

Could you be a bit clearer on Maori games requirements for this web site? If you look at mau rakau there are no references of a pre-1970s date???? yet for ki-o-rahi they are required. Are published sources from Sage and Raupo/Penguin acceptable? and if not why not? W#hat in your mind are 'good sources'?, it is very confusing stuff Simon.

Also Simon waka ama as a sport started here on the coast in NZ in the 1980s. We have never said it was of a pre-European sports nature??? Waka Ama as a sport is like mau rakau, ki-o-rahi and kapa haka, a modern sports development based on connections to the ancient past. Thankyou Temepara —Preceding unsigned comment added by Temepara (talk • contribs) 21:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean by lack of refs for Mau rākau, this might have to be addressed as well. As for the rest please perhaps just write what you want to say and list your references. If they are obviously good then there should be no problems. Seriously if this is an ancient sport then there should be no problems getting some good sources especially if Ngati Porou spent 2 years researching it - SimonLyall (talk) 10:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

this page is very much an indication of someone in wikipedia crew who has set themselves up as an authority on maori games when they really have no idea about them and instead of admitting that are trying to cover their ignorance by trashiing the work ihi is doing at otago uni. the paper he lectures is focused on maori movement with an emphasis on ki-o-rahi. Ki-o-rahi is a big part of the paper, since 2006 his work has been documented and televised as part of the classes. the papers ki-o-rahi is on you tube with the paper identified and when I was doing the course we also ran a tournament at end of year by coaching up schools in Dunedin region. last year their were 10 teams involved from uni faculty and 70 grads qualified and from feedback they have been instructing ki-o-rahi all over NZ. Also his association with ki-o-rahi is fairly splashed on the otago website with his bio. mikey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.167.138.3 (talk) 05:10, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please be specific with what problems you have with the article. - SimonLyall (talk) 08:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

More rules please
Hi, any chance of a fuller rules explanation - and perhaps a diagram of the pitch and photo of a game? EdwardLane (talk) 15:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

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