Talk:K-57 (Kansas highway)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 17:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed; sources are all reliable. That's it for a first pass. The main problem is that the changes of route are almost incomprehensible unless you already know the geography. I think the simplest fix would be a large map with everything relevant on it in a single image -- all the relevant other roads. K244, K18, US-40, US-40 Bus., US-69, K-13, US-77 -- anything mentioned in the previous discussion. It would also need to include all the place names -- Alta Vista, Emporia, Council Grove, Milford Lake, Neosho Falls, Pittsburg, and so on. If you don't do it that way, you could maybe do it with junction tables, but I think that would be harder. From a GA point of view, the problem is criterion 1(a) -- the prose is grammatical and no doubt accurately says what it means to say, but it doesn't convey to the reader what it needs to convey. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What's the source for the "Major junctions" section table? There's a citation for the distances, but not for the other information.
 * Usually this isn't cited for road articles. An example is New York State Route 28. -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised, I have to say. What did you actually use to source this?  I know plot sections in articles about works of fiction aren't sourced because one can read the book or see the film and get the information, but I assume you didn't get this information by driving the road.  You presumably got it from a paper or online map?  Can't we just put that in at the top as "Source:[47]? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * -420Traveler (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "The highway intersects Interstate 70 (I-70), US-40 and K-18 in Grandview Plaza": as far as I can tell, these three are all the same physical road at this point. If that's correct, this is very confusingly phrased.  Could we do something like "The highway intersects Interstate 70 (I-70) in Grandview Plaza; at the intersection, I-70 is also the the route of US-40 and K-18"?  Without that it looks as if the intersection in Grandview Plaza is with K-18, and the other two intersections are elsewhere.  This is particularly problematic as I see you repeat the triple name for the road later in the article.  Another approach would be to call the road "I-70/US-40/K-18", to make it clearer to the reader that they're all the same here.
 * Should all be fixed now. -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Not necessary for GA, but it would be nice to add a couple of places mentioned in the article to the map -- Dwight and Grandview Plaza at least. And I see the "Junction City" label but there's no dot or other marker so I've no idea where that is -- left of the "J"?  Right of the "y"?
 * Im not able to change this type of map, this is the type suggested to be used in road articles. -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * A pity, but not an issue for GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * To someone unfamiliar with Kansas place names, the description of the earlier routes of the road is useless. Is there any chance of a map showing the prior routes in various colours?  Alternatively adding more place names to the existing map would help too -- Alta Vista and Opolis, near the end points, would be good, at least.
 * I could add a picture of state maps from those years. Im pretty sure that they arent copyrighted. -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Let's try that, if you have access to those maps. It's pretty hard to understand as it is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In the second paragraph of "Establishment", why are we getting all this information about other roads? I think it's because a change to an intersecting road means K-57's intersections changed.  This is a very confusing way to present it.  Would it be possible to build junction tables for the prior versions of the road?  Reading the text along with a table would be a lot easier.
 * I could do that, but I think it would look better to use pictures of the old state maps for those years? -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you're right that a map would be better. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is there information about the Southeastern Kansas Gas Company in the article? It seems unconnected to the road.
 * I added it as a lead up to the next couple sentences? -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I should have realized that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , just checking that you are planning to work on this? I see elsewhere that you're busy; if this stays on hold for a couple of weeks would you be able to get to it?  I'm happy to help by fixing some things myself where I can, but some of the points above are beyond what I can do myself. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 15:18, 1≠5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , yeah I will get to it in next couple days, things are finally starting to slow down for me. Thanks, -420Traveler (talk) 15:59, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem; I'll check back in a week if I don't hear from you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:22, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

, checking in again -- it's been a week with no progress. I don't mind keeping the review open if the article is being worked on, but if you won't be able to work on it I will fail it and you can renominate it when you think you'll have more time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:28, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey sorry for the delay, I fixed a few things and have a couple questions. -420Traveler (talk) 13:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I fixed the source for the junction table. I also added a comparison map in the history section to show locations. I can't add maps for the establishment section because 1926, 1927, and 1928 maps are all copyrighted. Do you think I need to add any other maps in the history section? -420Traveler (talk) 03:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I struck one more point above. The new map is helpful but I really need to read through the article again.  Before I do that, though, I wonder if we could use OpenStreetMap? It's apparently considered a reliable source, which I only just found out. The scale on which it shows information is not great for what we want to do, but it could be overlaid with markings that provides the route information discussed in the article.  I haven't experimented with using OSM data but perhaps someone in the Roads project knows how? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 15:24, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * you mean instead of adding comparison maps? I'm not sure how to do the thing you are talking about. -420Traveler (talk) 14:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that OpenStreetMap has tools to extract map data, and if we are going to make a map, that's one way to do it. Fundamentally the issue I see here is that the article can't be understood by readers unfamiliar with the local geography without a map that shows the places and routes in question; it doesn't matter how it's done.  I'm not an expert on OSM myself, or on mapping, I'm afraid. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 14:17, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok I understand now, I can't do it that well either. Best I can do is another comparison map... what years should I do? -420Traveler (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it's not so much a comparison map that's needed as a map that covers the road end-to-end, and on which we can label as many as possible of the place names that appear in the article. If you can do that, I can try to add to that an overlay showing the different routes of the road. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 14:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Best I can do is make a kml map like in the infobox, of the pre 2003 route that can be clicked on and zoomed in. -420Traveler (talk) 21:16, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you create a kml map of each version of the route? That is, there were changes in 1927, 1928, 1952, and then again in 1967, 2003, and 2004.  I don't think we need seven versions, but maybe if you create a map of the 1967-2003 version, that would contain the longest version, running from Milford State Park in the northwest of the map to Opolis on the state border.  Then I could try adding place names to the map in a graphics editor and we can see how that looks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:40, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll do the 1967-2003 version for that. I'll let you know when I get it done. -420Traveler (talk) 00:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

, just checking in to see how you're getting on with the map. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry for delay, I left my laptop at my other house which I need. I will get to it this weekend. -420Traveler (talk) 18:51, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * , maybe we should close this as a fail, and give you time to work on it without me constantly nagging you -- then when you have the map done, let me know and once we have it labelled you can renominate. That might be better than keeping the GAN open for months. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 09:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm closing this as a fail after a month of inactivity. If you get the KML map done, let me know and I'd be glad to pick up another GA review at that point. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I have berm having trouble with Google maps so I wasn't able to make kml. Also I would like a second opinion because I don't think the map is necessary anyways. All the FA road articles don't have maps like that. -420Traveler (talk) 12:51, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll post this for a second opinion, some time later today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

, how can I put this up for a second opinion now I've failed it? Can I just bring back the old GAN nomination template and change the status to 2ndopinion, or will that confuse Legobot? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:10, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I got the answer from WT:GAN. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:21, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion requested
I failed this GAN because I think the complicated description of its route changes is impossible to understand without a map that identifies all or at least most of the place names mentioned. The nominator, does not feel a map is necessary beyond the map in the infobox showing the current extent of the route, and asked me to list this for a second opinion. , do you have anything to add? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:18, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with the need for a map. The Realignments and improvements section lists off 15 communities (St. Paul, Junction City, Emporia, Madison, Colony, Burlington, Hartford, Council Grove, Pittsburg, Girard, Herington, Eskridge, Dwight, Alta Vista, Abilene, 16 if you include Milford Lake in the next section), and only 3 are mentioned in the Route description. Try Open Street Maps as a base for a map that includes most of these places, because it's very difficult to follow otherwise. - Floydian τ ¢ 04:28, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Floydian., I'm going to fail this -- if you do create a suitable map and renominate, let me know and if I have time I'll pick up the review quickly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)