Talk:K. P. Ratnam

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 * In K. P. Ratnam's article and other I don't find anything wrong mentioning British Ceylon when there articles with the similar title such as Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Muhammad Ali Jinnah where there birth places are mentioned as British India(Let it be Presidencies and provinces of British India or Company rule in India), but it is not there he was borne in India.
 * Ella Baker is mentioned as "an African American civil rights and human rights activist", Cato Perkins is mentioned as "an African American slave"..........so there is no standard rule on Wikipedia whether someone should be mentioned as "Sri Lankan" or "Sri Lankan Tamil".Sudar123 (talk) 10:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Pls cite a RS that states that K. P. Ratnam was born in British Ceylon, then it could be mentioned so.Cossde (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you think in the articles of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Muhammad Ali Jinnah their birth places are mentioned as British India with RS?Sudar123 (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * For a person who identifies him self with a certain background for a particular purpose it is fine to associate that background in describing said person. Politicians associate their race and creed and make used of political polarization. Where as public servants as a practice refrain from doing so. Since we would not for certain know what their own means of self identification is I suggest best to identify them from their country of citizenship rather than from any thing else. If they have explicitly identified themselves to a certain background, recorded so in a RS then by all means we must states so in their biographic articles. If not we would be editorialising.Cossde (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The above findings and the conclusion is your POV. Since someone is borne in a particular community, because of his or her profession, he or she doesn't change the ethnic identification.Sudar123 (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Certain conclusions could be reached, thats why I proposed

"Since we would not for certain know what their own means of self identification is I suggest best to identify them from their country of citizenship rather than from any thing else. If they have explicitly identified themselves to a certain background, recorded so in a RS then by all means we must states so in their biographic articles. If not we would be editorialising." Cossde (talk) 04:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * We don't want to go deep into what is their self identification to support their bio on Wikipedia. Simply if they are born as Tamils they are Tamils; they could be even visualize outer space and care for living creatures there.Sudar123 (talk) 06:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Why don't you want to go deep into what is their self identification ? Isn't that the objective of a biography ? As per your logic, simply if they are born in a country why not list them as a countrymen instead of complicating matters with creatures from outer space ? Cossde (talk) 07:34, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Man, understand properly human's social structure first. Each human is associated with a culture and ethnic identification whether they are living in country or widespread within a region or beyond. They like to identify them with their ethnic identification first to protect their culture and not with the country or region, that comes second. If you can't understand these human psychology, please take a break on Wikipedia, don't waste others time here with your POVs.Sudar123 (talk) 08:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your lesson in human psychology, or should I say sociology! However this statement is clearly your POV and I would have to give you your own advice on not wasting others time and read WP:OPENPARAGRAPH on opening paragraphs. Cossde (talk) 10:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * According to WP:OPENPARAGRAPH, "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."


 * K. P. Ratnam is notability is largely based in his constituency as a minority Tamil politician who is representing them. So it is not violating the WP:OPENPARAGRAPH.Sudar123 (talk) 10:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly, that is correct. As I said earlier " Politicians associate their race and creed and make used of political polarization" hence in this case it is appropriated to use ethnicity as he identified himself on in and used it for his elections. Cossde (talk) 11:03, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The above statement shows you are living in a different world or mentally off.Sudar123 (talk) 11:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Im sorry that you can not understand. Ill try to use simple words next time, specially for a person who does not know the difference between psychology and sociology. Cossde (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't worry even I can understand Social psychology, but your statemet above that, "Politicians associate their race and creed and make used of political polarization" hence in this case it is appropriated to use ethnicity as he identified himself on in and used it for his elections." is a redundant one here, maybe good for on the context of Humanity or Spirituality.Sudar123 (talk) 12:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope, Politicians take advantage ethnicity to gain votes in elections. The result is more divisions in society on ethnicity. Cossde (talk) 12:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Bottom line here is that


 * British Ceylon can not be used here unless a RS supporting his birth in British Ceylon is provided.
 * He is identified as a Sri Lankan Tamil as per WP:OPENPARAGRAPH for is constituency as a minority Tamil politician. Cossde (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Let's deal with the two items of dispute here - whether his birth place should be Ceylon or British Ceylon and whether his ethnicity should be mentioned in the lede.


 * Birthplace - Yes, there are only a few references to British Ceylon outside Wikipedia . That's because the outside world doesn't need to differentiate between entities with the same name. Wikipedia does. There are four articles with Ceylon in their title: Portuguese Ceylon, Dutch Ceylon, British Ceylon and Dominion of Ceylon. Wiki links are an important feature of Wikipedia - they allow readers to read related articles. It is important that when the reader clicks on the wiki link to Ratnam's birthplace they are directed to the correct article. If they clicked on Ceylon they would be redirected to Sri Lanka. He wasn't born in Sri Lanka. If we were to look at Ratnam's birth certificate it would say he was born in Ceylon. As a compromise I am prepared to put Ceylon (note the piped link). How does this suit everyone else?


 * Ethnicity - WP:OPENPARAGRAPH states that "Ethnicity...should not generally be emphasized unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". It doesn't preclude a person's ethnicity being mentioned in the lede. Also, in Ratnam's case his ethnicity is one of the contributory factors in his notability - he was a member of a political party representing a specific ethnic group - Sri Lankan Tamils. Please see the ledes in the following examples of politicians representing nationalist parties in the UK: Alex Salmond, Ieuan Wyn Jones, John Hume, Gerry Adams, Dafydd Wigley. They say Scottish/Irish/Welsh not UK/British.-- obi2canibe talk contr 15:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Birthplace - The lack of RS on British Ceylon shows that it is a tern not used in general academia. As such we must refrain from using in wikipedia even though articles have been created in its name. Since there has been no territorial changes to the country referred to as British Ceylon at the time of his birth and Sri Lanka there will be no confusion. Cossde (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Ethnicity - Yes, agree as I mention several times before! Ethnicity could be use in the lead for K. P. Ratnam as he is a politician. Cossde (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

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