Talk:Kaʻiulani/Archive 2

Kaiulani expansion
Hey, I will be happy to help out with this but just know that my work pace will be slower. I just purchased the biography by Linnea and Webb and waiting for them to arrive. I generally think this needs a large overhaul (blow it all up and start from scratch) especially the Overthrow section. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree completely. What  mess this article is.  I know so little about Kaiulani, and what I've found at Open Library is limited. — Maile  (talk) 10:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This could be a good promotion for an August 12 (anniversary of annexation) promotion on DYK once it passes GA or October 16 (anniversary of her birthday). Any other important dates in her life that are upcoming? KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Problematic parts
"She suffered eye problems and developed migraines following the overthrow of the monarchy (although one such headache kept her from participating in a charity event in Paris, where a devastating fire killed scores of society women). Numerous documented symptoms may indicate she suffered from thyroid disease, which would help explain her early death."


 * Edits that added this. Can't verify. Refers to the Bazar de la Charité most likely but don't see why Kaiulani would have been invited since most of the participants seem to be French noblewomen. KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Curriculum at Great Harrowden
She excelled in her studies of Latin, Literature, Mathematics, and History there and took classes in French, German, and sports (mostly tennis and cricket).
 * Can't source this. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Identity of Japanese princes
It seems Kalakaua matchmaking was definitely with Prince Higashifushimi Yorihito. But there seems to have been other matches. Queen Liliuokalani mentioned a Japanese prince studying in London as a potential match. Many other sources also mention a young Japanese prince who was on the Japanese cruiser Naniwa in Hawaii during the overthrow as another potential match. Not sure if the two are the same person. But many sources call this latter person Prince Komatsu but this could not have been Prince Komatsu Akihito who was not in the Japanese navy and who was not young or unmarried. I think it may be Prince Arisugawa Tanehito based on this clipping. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Could also be Prince Yamashina Kikumaro ? KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I get the impression there was a lot of attempted matchmaking going on. And rumors, rumors, rumors. Makes me wonder if Liliuokalani thought she'd made a match with David Kawānanakoa, but he had a different perception.

I saved this book while I was writing one of the Kalakaua articles, can't remember which one. But it might come in handy on what we are doing. — Maile (talk) 01:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I think the prince on the Naniwa and the Prince Komatsu referred in a lot of source is all referring to Prince Higashifushimi Yorihito (the original betrothed) since he was adopted by his half-brother Prince Komatsu Akihito into the Komatsu-no-miya house and the elder Prince Komatsu was part of the group of Japanese officials pictured with Kalakaua in his 1881 trip. But can't fit the Arisugawa link and Prince Arisugawa Tanehito seemed too young to have been on a warship. KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:27, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Unused Sources
Hawaiian Newspapers
 * By date
 * He kama Aliiwahine opio hou loa in Ka Nupepa Kuokoa, Vol. 14, No. 43, 23 October 1875 http://nupepa.org/gsdl2.5/cgi-bin/nupepa?e=d-0nupepa--00-0-0--010---4-mid---0-1l--1en-Zz-1---20-about---0003-1-0000utfZz-8-00&a=d&cl=CL2.31&d=HASH013b00a796f432747278373d.2
 * Birth announced in KA LAHUI HAWAII. Buke 1, Helu 43, Aoao 1. Okatoba 21, 1875 http://nupepa.org/gsdl2.5/cgi-bin/nupepa?e=d-0nupepa--00-0-0--010---4-mid---0-1l--1en-Zz-1---20-about---0003-1-0000utfZz-8-00&a=d&cl=CL2.31&d=HASH0115dc0321c282668baf809d.3


 * https://nupepa-hawaii.com/tag/kaiulani/
 * http://www.disappearednews.com/2010/05/princess-kaiulani.html
 * https://aprincessinhove.wordpress.com/
 * https://facebook.com/pg/vintageHONOLULU/photos/?tab=album&album_id=2724724874420657 Photos and additional information about Ainahau
 * http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.com/2009/11/pineapple-princess-crown-princess.html
 * https://www.facebook.com/princesskaiulaniproject/
 * https://facebook.com/pg/vintageHONOLULU/photos/?tab=album&album_id=2538506526375827




 * https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/simple-search?query=kaiulani
 * https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/simple-search?location=%2F&query=ka%27iulani&rpp=10&sort_by=score&order=DESC&etal=0

Portrait of Kaiulani at Sheraton Hotel, one by Lloyd Sexton painting that has hung in the lobby since the opening and another by Ronnie Kilpatrick
 * https://www.facebook.com/SheratonPrincessKaiulani/posts/938685902843099


 * https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=princess+kaiulani+cleghorn
 * Carroll, Dennis. “Hawai'i's ‘Local’ Theatre.” TDR (1988-), vol. 44, no. 2, 2000, pp. 123–152. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/1146851. Accessed 24 June 2020.

Kaiulani ship
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=iQo3AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA24&dq=have+you+take+into+consideration+kaiulani&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHkpDshqPqAhVEtZ4KHcuPDHkQ6AEwAXoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=princess%20kaiulani&f=false

Funeral
Posted in the newspapers by Henry E. Cooper, Republic of Hawaii Minister of Foreign Affairs


 * Marshall of the Republic and Officers
 * Company of Police
 * Band
 * St. Louis College
 * Oahu College
 * Kamehameha School
 * St. Andrew's Priory
 * Band
 * Fraternal societies
 * St. Antonio Beneficente Society
 * Sociedade Lusitana Beneficente
 * Aha Hui Kalaiana
 * Aha Hui Aloha Aina
 * Aha Hui Aloha Aina o na Wahine
 * Major Commanding and Aides
 * Band
 * Second Battalion U. S. Volunteer Engineers
 * Detachment of Blue Jackets from U.S.S. Scindia and and Iroquois
 * Band
 * First Regiment National Guard of Hawaii
 * Protestant Clergy
 * Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church
 * The Right Reverend, the Bishop of Panopolis
 * Choir
 * Officiating clergy
 * The Right Reverend the Bishop of Honolulu
 * The Catafalque, each side accompanied by large Kahili bearers, small Kahili bearers, pall bearers
 * Carriage with her father Archibald Scott Cleghorn and his two illegitimate daughters by different women, Mrs. (Rose Kaipuala Cleghorn) James William Robertson (who founded the Daily Bulletin newspaper) and Mrs. (Helen Maniʻiailehua Cleghorn) James Harbottle Boyd
 * Carriage of ex-Queen Liliuokalani
 * Carriage of Her Majesty the Queen Dowager, with Prince David Kawānanakoa and Prince Jonah Kūhiō Kalanianaʻole and wife
 * The President and staff
 * The Cabinet Ministers
 * The Justices of the Supreme Court
 * The Special Agent of the United States
 * Officer U. S. Army and Navy
 * President of the Senate
 * Speaker of the House
 * Consular Corps
 * Circuit Judges
 * Government Officials
 * Public

Terminology re royal title under the Republic
How does Wikipedia use royal titles here, since the kingdom no longer existed? Kaiulani is referred to in the media of the day as Princess. I notice in the newspaper posting of the order of funeral procession, Liliuokalani is referred to as "ex-Queen", but they list "Her Majesty the Queen Dowager, with Prince David Kawānanakoa and Prince Jonah Kūhiō Kalanianaʻoler" I assume the Queen Dowager to be Kapiolani.— Maile (talk) 13:48, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Title after the monarchy were courtesy titles so it depends on the reporting source but she was generally referred to as Princess. Queen dowager is Kapiolani. KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:33, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Consistency on referring to England (etc.)
We have multiple referrals to England, not only by that name, but also the United Kingdom and Great Britain. All of them are correct. But when we finish up this article overhaul, let's look for consistency on the name. — Maile (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Rumour engagements - Loose ends
Lots of leads but too minute to go into all the details for now.

George Davies
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53718258/princess-kaiulani-returns-in-honolulu/
 * Mentions old rumors with Clive but not George. Did George build a house at Nuuanu around this time?


 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53718385/say-tis-not-true/
 * Refutes the rumor as it was spreading like wildfire on the continental US


 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53718021/hawaiian-matters-princess-kaiulani-is/
 * Earliest reference I could find of continental rumors about her and George Davies. Rumor seems to have been circulating since her the news of return to Hawaii reached California on November 10, 1897 from San Francisco press not found on newspapers.com


 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53718468/kaiulanis-luau-for-george-davies/
 * Mentions a luau for George Davies which conflicts with another source (can't locate it at the moment, but it was a look at the movie and the historical accuracy of it) that Kaiulani gave a luau to honor Clive Davies before his marriage...Need to sort this out...
 * Nevermind there was another Davie's luau. Clive Davies' luau on February 3, 1898 sending him off as he goes off to marry Edith Fox https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53727095/bon-voyage-to-mr-davies/
 * Connection to the movie..." Towards the end of the film Clive meets Ka`iulani along windward O`ahu and asks Ka`iulani to marry him and move to England. But in reality the event was a lu`au thrown by Ka`iulani for Clive as he was leaving Hawai`i to go to England to marry someone else." http://www.disappearednews.com/2010/05/princess-kaiulani.html

From news and snippets of Davies: The Inside Story of a British-American Family in the Pacific and Its Business Enterprises, it seems Clive Davies was engaged to marry Edith Fox since 1896 and was sent by his father to Honolulu to manage his business there. George Davies and Theo Davies later went to Honolulu on November 6 on the Belgic (days before Kaiulani...did the Davies travel part of the way with Kaiulani???). The presence of the younger brother might have started the rumor mills again in the press in California and that transferred across the US press. The Hawaiian press seems pretty mute on the topic of George Davies' connection with Kaiulani. The Davies' residence in Nuuanu was named Craigside and was renovated in 1897.

Significance of Davies Luau on March 12, 1898 to the film?...
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53718468/kaiulanis-luau-for-theo-davies/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53723108/reception-at-ainahau/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53723137/reception-at-ainahau/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53723168/a-brilliant-reception/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53723187/the-independent/

Left on the Zealandia on March 24, 1898 --- seems like a smallpox quarantine on the Belgic and impatience with waiting for the Miowera made them chose the Zealandia
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53723379/theo-h-davies-and-george-davies-leave/

KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Other suitors: Captain Putnam Bradlee Strong and Andrew Adams
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53622421/obituary-for-putnam-bradlee-major/
 * Strong eloped with May Yohé, wife of the owner of the Hope Diamond (not in the sources linked)


 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/23021811/andrew-adams-dies-former-sugar-expert/

James Gillespie Blaine, Jr, son of James G. Blaine
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53623220/james-g-blaine-jr-rumored-engagement/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53623480/kuehne-beveridges-bust-of-Kaʻiulani/

KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Leads on Kawananakoa: KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Linnea and Stassen-McLaughlin heavily hints that the arranged marriage waiting for her was to Koa.
 * Linnea mention both snubbed each other publicly
 * Haven't checked Webb in detail yet beyond her life in 1890
 * Her half-brother Thomas Cleghorn believed it was Koa and has a belt from Kaiulani to Koa. Interview mentions that Mabel Lucas (granddaughter of Rose Kaipuala Cleghorn Robertson) denies it and that it was heavily debated.
 * Letter from Hawaii Island to her father with postscript "Koa will give you all the news." and apocryphal tale on how her last words were Mama or Koa.
 * Kawananakoa remained a bachelor until 1902 marriage to Abigail Campbell Kawānanakoa; he was a 34-year old bachelor. Maybe hint that he was staying unmarried in case Kaiulani would marry him.


 * Quite frankly, that's not how Kawananakoa and his brother Kalanianaoli come across in history. Between absconding with Kapiolani's property and trying to have Liliuokalani declared mentally incompetent with the intent of seizing her property holdings, they look like a couple of scam artists at best, and at worst, opportunistic greedy relatives preying on the elderly. I see nothing romantic there. Go with what we know as fact, not speculation. — Maile  (talk) 10:36, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah only adding what I know and read in talk for now. They were controversial individuals but did there good as well Kūhiō with Hawaiian home lands and Kawānanakoa with founding of Democratic Party.KAVEBEAR (talk) 14:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Understood re what we add here. Not disputing the good these two later did. But in regards to family business, they did not seem to have honorable, or even romantic, intents.  Nor, apparently, did notary Carlos A. Long, whom Kapiolani entrusted with her documents. Long enrolled at Georgetown University that fall, and the rest of his career is Hawaii history. — Maile  (talk) 15:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I added the quote by Iaukea to further support the wishful thinking of Queen Kapiolani and Iaukea's interpretation of Kaiulani's feelings: "That Princess Kaiulani ever entertained this proposition, I doubt. At all events, the union did not materialize, much to the Queen’s disappointment." I don't know how much of it we should include in final draft. I think it would be good to add to Queen Kapiʻolani's article once we have it more finalized since it is GA status. And it would be probably more appropriate to go into more details about the estate there. I am usually less interested in the issue of estates and wills on these biographies. KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The necklace
You've linked a blog, which provides no date or sourcing. Depending on when that necklace was allegedly given, it might seem kind of odd given that Kapioilani was being sued by Kawananakoa and Kalanianaoli. Remind me which one of those two tried to get Liliʻuokalani declared mentally incompetent. Also, the mention in that blog of the other Davies son George being engaged to Kaʻiulani in 1897 is something I found nothing about.
 * Best source I could find. I think it would just be wise to summarized other non-significant rumors with one sentence listing them by name and maybe a short description of who they are and attaching sources toward the end. KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Copvio stuff
Just to keep us on the safe side, when we finally upgrade the article.


 * WMFLabs Dup detector
 * Earwig's Copyvio Detector

Right now Earwig's tool flags copyvios of 23% - 31% on three sources:


 * 31.0% Marilyn Stassen-McLaughlin
 * 25.4% Electric Scotland
 * 23.7% Michael Tighe (August 9, 1998). "Hawaii's Own: A look at a century of annexation"

— Maile (talk) 21:48, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The Hawaiian Situation by Theophilus Harris Davies
Dropping this link here. Interesting 6-page article from 1893. Free access. — Maile (talk) 21:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah it’s the one that cites Davies’ claim Thurston was the one to suggest Kaiulani be sent abroad.KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Added into article for Thurston end. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Added into article for Thurston end. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Davies claim that Thurston sent Kaiulani to England
Davies said he heard Thurston had sent Kaiulani to England to be educated
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54502070/davies-said-he-heard-thurston-had-sent/

Quotes
That huge block quote that begins, "Seventy years ago ... "  - I added a framed quote that is more reduced. I'm assuming Davies wrote both of them. The big quote was indeed in the newspapers as it is written. I like the other quote better. It reads better and gets right to the point. Your view on those quotes? — Maile (talk) 21:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The first quote is pretty myopic since it focused solely on Thurston. The second quotation sums up the hypocrisy of the overthrow by Dole, Thurston and other missionary sons and has a really strong ending. I mean she was a Victorian school in a society where women had no civil rights but the message is that despite her gender, she was standing up for her people because of the injustice of the overthrow and fits with Queen Liliuokalani protest to the US in 1893 when she yield her sovereignty until the time the US would rightly restore her to the throne. It seems really similar to that one. But if it becomes too long maybe just start from “ Today, I, a poor weak girl...” I don’t think it ever comes off as her appearing to be weak and waiting for someone to save her. However, it is growing clear from her post 1893 action before her 1897 return that she wasn’t a heroine as Davies calls her in a letter. KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Given Davies' financial investment in Hawaii's sugar industry, he was possibly manipulating her for his own interests, regardless of what he may have thought of her personally. She does not seem to have been taken seriously by the President of the US and his wife. And after she returned to Hawaii, her life seemed to be that of a society hostess, either giving or attending parties for the wealthy and well-connected of the era. — Maile  (talk) 03:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Establishing life in Europe
, thank you for putting that source out there. I've gone through it page by page, and jotted some notes under that section. This, for me, is like the missing piece of the puzzle. It fleshes her out into a very normal young adult, who just wanted to live life, push against the restrictions put there by others, and just enjoy each day. Before she is forced to go home and become a responsible adult. This plaster saint image created by the media of its day, and historians since, has just seemed incomplete to me. She was put on a public image pedestal from the time she was a child, and everybody just went along saying wonderful, laudatory things about their saint. Now, we have a chance to present a more fleshed out account. She was normal. — Maile (talk) 22:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've learned to trust the primary sources (her letters) and to take her biographers with a grain of salt. Webb and Linnea, although there is a wealth of primary sources in their books, add a lot of storytelling element into their biographies of her much like Helena G. Allen in The Betrayal of Liliuokalani: Last Queen of Hawaii. So it is hard to parse it all out. Stassen-McLaughlin seems more so about analyzing the primary sources than telling her story and seems to at least tell a more nuance version of the princess than the other biographers. Seems odd that it has been twenty years since a decent biography about Kaiulani has been written. KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:02, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Why did she return to Hawaii
(My thoughts and confusion) It isn't certain what exactly prompted Cleghorn and Kaiulani to return to Hawaii at least from the primary source since the last communication published in the sources dates to July 4, 1897 (written to Toby) and at that time, Kaiulani was still considering returning to Europe after visiting Liliuokalani in DC. The secondary sources Webb (p. 143-144) and Linnea (p. 170-171) claims that Kaiulani returned because of annexation but does not cite specific primary sources. Linnea even have what I can assume are fake quotes of Cleghorn and Kaiulani's conversation into the night about the political situation in Hawaii. Stassen-McLaughlin seems to agree with Webb and Linnea but doesn't seem to give a clear answer or use fake storytelling elements and just says the situation in Hawaii called for her return. KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:58, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Section dates
At least while we're working here, I'm adding dates to the section headings. It's otherwise confusing until we come up with the final work. — Maile (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Education section
I added a paragraph that needs to be stated, a missing piece in this puzzle of who was Kaiulani. It can be re-stated, or shortened. But it needs to be in there. The head guy (Thurston) who helped overthrow the kingdom, helps Davies, who has big financial interests in Hawaii, to stash the heir to the throne thousands of miles away in the British empire, But they do not give her ANY training or education that would help her as head of state. They provide her with a (minimal) education in what were expected of women in that Victorian era - heavy emphasis on knowing how to sew. Davies himself mentions that it would have all worked out if Liliuokalani were de-throned, and Kaiulani were substituted with the Provisional Government in charge. However, Thurston then pursued the prospect of the United States annexing Hawaii. The answers will probably never be known, but these are not the actions of people training a future of head of state. — Maile (talk) 20:20, 24 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Moving this from the article page. Not necessary to act on this - just moving the conversation here:

One of the themes that comes up in Kaʻiulani's life is that she was taught sewing. After her later residency in England under the guardianship, one of her letters home mentioned that she did a lot of, "sewing and gardening. I am getting to be quite a good needle-woman."{sfn|Webb|Webb|1998|page=120}} Her sewing abilities show up repeatedly in those years. This was a young woman allegedly being groomed to be a head of state. Contrast this with Liliʻuokalani and her siblings, all eligible for the throne of the Hawaiian Kingdom. Liliʻuokalani was taught arithmetic, geometry, algebra, physics, geography, history, bookkeeping, music and English composition. The future queen also attended Oʻahu College (modern day Punahou School). The fact that Kaʻiulani was being taught mostly social skills and sewing, brings into question whether she was being groomed to be an uninvolved figurehead, with others running the government. Davies himself mentioned that everything might have worked out with a "Dethronement of the Queen," replaced by "a well-educated, high-principled girl who would have been guided by such men as are now the executive of the provisional government."{sfn|Davies|1893|page=608}}
 * Have you looked into Stassen-McLaughlin 1999, pp. 26–32? The Royal School didn’t actually prepare any of the royal pupils for statecraft, it was more of experience as regent that prepared Liliuokalani for rule and there are some analysis that she didn’t do a good job of it. Also Kaiulani was only 17 by the time of the overthrow. I think they just wanted her get a sense of the world and get a rounded education like a upper class society lady, understand the basics and know a few languages, before she was to return and take some sort of role assisting the queen. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:27, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * as I say, we can reword any of this. How old was Liliiuokalani when she attended the Royal School?  I did not mean to imply that the Royal School prepared them for leadership – just that the courses offered the children were more a basic education, and prepared them better for life in general than just learning how to sew. Somewhere over the last few days, I came across info that she  exhausted her allowance, or money, or something, and that Cleghorn asked Davies to cover it. I suppose it could be argued that her uncle Kalakaua didn't seem to recognize a budget, either.   — Maile  (talk) 23:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don’t think she was just taught to sew. There were lessons in literature, language and history at Great Harrowden and Rooke’s finishing school. Yeah I am collecting a few sources about their annual allowance appropriated by the legislature. That and Cleghorn’s salary as custom house inspector wouldn’t have been able to pay for everything especially when state funding ceased in 1893. The letter I think mention that Cleghorn would have to mortgage property to pay for Kaiulani’s debt if they continue to increase. The Hawaiian royals weren’t cash rich. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:54, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

let's leave this conversation here until we have the article in the shape we want. After that, we can probably delete this thread, and not carry it over to the article talk page. — Maile (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, agree some element should be included. But I’m not sure the above interpretation (first paragraph) is correct. Thurston and Davies weren’t colluding to make her an uneducated puppet since 1889. That’s too conspiracy ridden. Thurston’s role in Kaiulani education was minimal although he did initiate the idea of sending her abroad since he was interior minister at the time along with Cleghorn and Kalakaua. Davies would have made decisions on her education with her family’s consent from 1889 to 1893. After the overthrow, Davies did have his own interest in not having Hawaii annexed since he is a British citizen and was playing Kaiulani as his trump card against the wishes of Liliuokalani who didn’t want a potential rival option for those who wanted a monarchy but not her to continue ruling. Liliuokalani was worried that Kaiulani would be manipulated and there was a rift between the two for a time. Is the heavy emphasis on sewing in the Hawaiian Situation source? I don’t see that as likely or that there was any concerted effort to dumb her down with her education. She seem to have a well rounded education. She would have been unprepared to rule and received no political training (which should be included in article) but like all 17 year old princess of her time; it was 19th century sexism at the best. I see the manipulation as happening only after 1893 with Davies and other elements who wanted her to be the middle ground for continuing the monarchy but with her as a figure head. KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, since I think we discussed this pretty well, and I'm not moved to make any changes based on the above ... we could just delete this talk page section I don't think we'll be going back to it.  Too minor an issue in the overall scope of giving the reader a clear picture of Kaiulani. — Maile  (talk) 20:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No let’s keep elements of it but leave the talk page as is. I check the letter cited in Webb. The letter dates to after she left Great Harrowden and when she was in limbo after the overthrow. She seems to be talking about her pastime not her education in that letter. I’m not sure how Archive.org works but does it allow you to borrow it now simultaneously as I am borrowing it or just one person at a time. KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)


 * OK, if that's what you think. I think Archive.org/Open Library allows more than one reader at a time.  I guess we'll find out. — Maile  (talk) 20:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Request
from this point forward, whatever you drop into existing text on the article workspace, could you please weave it in as part of the sourced narrative? I've been just as guilty about this. But the ultimate result in how we've been doing this, has been for me really time consuming in sorting through the odds and ends, read the sources, and to edit and finish up any section. Especially since you are sometimes referring to sources I don't have access to. By the time I figure it out on one day, I have to sort back through all that the next day just to write a paragraph. We've come a long way on this. Maybe from this point forward, we could do it a little more efficiently between us. — Maile (talk) 18:25, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I will try since I am not sure which loose ends you are talking about. I will trying them on the talk page for the most part except the ones that are currently there as placeholders and reminders for future clarifications. This article is starting to get larger than Liliʻuokalani's article. I think just roughly 10,000 character off. I don't know if that is s good or bad thing. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:11, 28 June 2020 (UTC)


 * OK. I've been noticing your edits this afternoon.  I think I'll just fall back a bit and let you edit for a while.  By "odds and ends", I meant the little notes and sources we were both leaving in various sections, and anything else I stumbled across.  But you're doing good.  I also was noticing a few days ago that this article looked like it would be larger than normal.  Let's get it done, and then see if there is something we can trim.  If you want this passed at DYK before the August date you mentioned, I hope you know someone who will help doing a GA review. — Maile  (talk) 01:17, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds good with just writing and then trimming later. Don't fall back, I am actually have online classes starting next week so I don't know how motivated I will be starting Monday. We also did pretty well on Europe section. As for timeline, it won't be the end of the world if we don't get a GA review done until October. KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Republic of Hawaii and Pension or Settlement
Did she take an oath of allegiance or receive funding from the Republic???
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=LV0MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA467&dq=kaiulani+%22oath+of+allegiance%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBmIbE-qLqAhXSpJ4KHQlJC7YQ6AEwAnoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=kaiulani%20%22oath%20of%20allegiance%22&f=false
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54271966/princess-kaiulani-got-4000/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54271555/how-about-kaiulani/
 * https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.35112204552303&view=1up&seq=49&q1=kaiulani
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=7GhFAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA33&dq=kaiulani+%224,000%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiG0NOM_6LqAhXIs54KHRtABxAQ6wEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=kaiulani%20%224%2C000%22&f=false how much of 1892 appropriation were spent

Note to KAVEBEAR
Transferring all the Kaiulani work to this user space. I do need to step back on this temporarily. I don't know how long. But I've reached a point where I need a break from the subject matter. Might be a few days. Might be more. But I need a break. Hope you understand. — Maile (talk) 10:52, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

European wanderings
Details of European wanderings...{sfn|Webb|Webb|1998|pages=130–144}
 * p 131 Cleghorn arrives in England on August 10. Stayed with Davies. Went to Scotland and return to London by November. Wintered at Menton in French Riviera.
 * p 132 Treated as royalty in Menton. Stayed at the Villa Dimure au Cap. Spent time with the Kennedys. Left in early May 1896...Davies was in Honolulu around April
 * p 133 Stayed in Paris for three weeks in May. Hearing news about Republic of Hawaii pension?? Did she ever get it? Spend summer at Rozel in Jersey
 * p 134 Left Jersey at end of Summer. Starting in September, visited friends in Scotland and England including Bailie Darsie of Anstruther, Fife, and his wife Titaua Salmon Brander, elder sister of Queen Marau of Tahiti.
 * p 135 Back in London, late fall???; Sat for a pastel portrait by Jules Gabriel Dubois-Menant wearing a yellow ball gown, holding a bouquet of marguerites in her lap. Cleghorn had the painting shipped to Ainahau. Back in Menton by December 1896 and stayed at Hotel du Louvre
 * p 136 Liliuokalani traveled to DC
 * p 137 Chronic illness and financial problems. Received letter in March from Kapiolani from Kailua. Annie dies
 * p 138 Annie's death on March 6. (Linnea 1999, p. 167, Zambucka 1998 p. 120–121 Annie 's sudden death has been a very great shock to both of us – I can hardly realize that the dear girl has gone.)... Cleghorn came down with a cold. Kaiulani traveled to Paris on April 2 with an American lady chaperoning her. Plans to stay in Paris if weather is good (NOTE: can't seem to corroborate with primary sources). Stayed at 37 Avenue Marceau, Champs Elysees and invited to attend Bazar. Mrs. Davies sends a letter about Captain Cook's ship logs
 * p 139 Liliuokalani sew a Hawaiian doll with holoku, head wreath and neck lei which she christened Kaiulani for the International Doll Show. Cleghorn joins Kaiulani at Paris before May Day. Develop a headache on May 5 and Cleghorn sent for doctor who recommend not attending Bazar
 * p 140 1897 Fire at Bazar
 * p 141 Paris mourns and Kaiulani write May 9 letter – speaking about Annie, the fire and her poor heath. Set out for England on May 18. Visited Ravensdale and Tunbridge Wells where they stayed with the Davies. Visited Scotland again and stayed with Darsie's at Fife for a second time. Return to Jersey during the summer
 * p 143 Discuss annexation (no letters referenced)
 * p 144 Return to London by mid-September and made farewell calls before sailing out of Southampton on October 9 for New York on the Paris
 * Zambucka 1998, pp. 122-125: Letters from Kaiulani to her father from August in Scotland (seems to have made separate errand and farewell calls) explaining who she would visit and who he can stay with until later. Mentioned packing and final preparations. Mentions a Mary (possibly Irish servant Mary O'Donnell who they hired to go to Hawaii with her). Mentions souvenirs for children and that she won't return for a long time
 * (Zambucka 1998 p. 116) Was in Tunbridge Wells in July 4, 1897 based on letter to Toby

KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Details of 1893 American visit
February 25 - Sailed from Southampton on the Teutonic Wednesday, March 1 - Arrive in New York Harbor on the Teutonic -
 * Travel party: Kaiulani, Mr. and Mrs. Davies, Alice, Annie Whartoff, as her lady-in-waiting and a chaperone, and a maid of Mrs. Davies.{sfn|Stassen-McLaughlin|1999|pages=34, 47}
 * Met by Macfarlane and Hawaiian Minister to US John Mott-Smith Webb 103
 * Stayed at Brevoort House
 * Met briefly with Koa

March 2 - Tour New York including Seventh Regiment Armory

March 3 - Kaiulani and Davies left NY by train for Boston while awaiting Cleveland's inauguration. Koa back in DC and told press that Kaiulani was under Davies' thumb: "Mr. Davies is working against the interest of the Queen, which is bad taste to say the least..."
 * Met at the train station by Clive Davies at MIT. Stay at Hotel Brunswick

March 4 - Rest in morning, sleigh ride with friends in afternoon

March 5 - Sleigh ride with Mr. and Mrs. Davies and attend service at Cathedral Church of St. Paul (Boston) and later Trinity Church (Boston)

March 6 - Visited Governor Ames and wife, friends of Davies. Portrait photographs taken at Elmer Chickering. Visited Clive's school and tour buildings.
 * Reception at hotel afternoon and evening. Clives' classmate stood as her honor guards and she met with former Hawaiian residents and reporters

March 7 - Visited Wellesley College. Return to hotel, rest, ate dinner and left for a train south.

March 8 - Kaiulani and suite arrives in Washington by noon
 * Koa waiting at station with leis
 * Stayed at Arlington Hotel
 * Rest in rooms and ate dinner in hotel dining room and shook hands with a reporter from the Star

March 9 - Cleveland withdraws treaties of annexation
 * Concert at hotel by violinist Ede Remenyi. Newspapers include stories of Koa's love affair with Kaiulani including comments by Mott-Smith.
 * Kaiulani went sightseeing in the afternoon

March 10 - Three commissioners meets and invited Kaiulani to World's Fair

March 11 - Cleveland appoints Blount

March 13 - Audience with Cleveland {sfn|Webb|Webb|1998|pages=114–115}
 * Return to hotel and spoke with reporters

March 15 - Davies spoke publicly

Between March 13-18
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54477711/carter-and-kaiulani-the-commissioner/
 * Entertained at a luncheon abroad the receiving ship Dale, stationed at Washington Navy Yard.
 * Dinner by ex-Senator Henderson with French ambassador as partner.
 * Guest of honor at a reception of the Women's Suffrage Association in parlors of the Wimodausis Club.
 * Great reception at Arlington Hotel by National Geographic Society. Escorted by Gardner Hubbard and met with many American politicians

March 18 - Return to NY at Brevoort House

March 22 - Leaves NY by the Majestic

March 30 - Arrive in Liverpool and returned to Southport

KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Needs more explanation→Cleghorn blamed Liliʻuokalani
Cleghorn blamed Liliʻuokalani for the overthrow, and believed that the monarchy would have been preserved had she abdicated in favor of Kaʻiulani. This leaves the reader wondering:
 * (1) What was in it for Cleghorn if Liliʻuokalani abdicated?
 * (2) Surely Kaiulani's own father knew she had no background, other than training as a society hostess, to be the titular monarch.
 * (3) Cleghorn would have first-hand knowledge that an untrained teenager on the throne would have only been a figurehead - a teenager with no background being manipulated by the same men who engineered the overthrow.
 * (4) He may have blamed Liliʻuokalani, but given the alternative of an untried teenager on the throne, his rationale comes into question.

To put it in practical terms, what would happen if any head of state today resigned, and the legislature voted their teenage child into the position? — Maile (talk) 15:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * See Cleghorn’s article. I moved the detail over because it was getting too long. During the Allied invasion of Italy, King Victor Emmanuel was requested to abdicate in favor of his son Umberto (a move that failed because he did it too late) or when Isabella II of Spain abdicate her claim to her son Alfonso (which worked when he was restored), this is a common steps in constitutional monarchies to save face after a monarch has tainted his or her reputation. I think Cleghorn (and everyone who wanted to keep the monarchy hut not have Liliuokalani on the throne) ascribed to British models of constitutional monarchy where the monarch stayed out of power and did not interfere with politics and wanted to appease the opponents of the queen and preserve the right of his daughter. Kaiulani was a best of both world situation for the people in the middle ground. KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)


 * OK, well thanks for explaining so clearly. — Maile (talk) 01:07, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Liliuokalani should have abdicated in favor of Kaiulani
We need at least one sentence somewhere to tie in Dole's suggestion that Liliuokalani abdicate in favor of Kaiulani, and Cleghorn's feelings that she should have. How did he know that was on the table? Was it a prevailing sentiment before the overthrow, or did Dole mention it to him? That thought was probably not a secret before the overthrow, but it would read better if we could find a tie between the two. — Maile (talk) 19:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it was a prevailing sentiment in the days before since an unnamed British sympathizer asked Liliuokalani to "abdicate at once" to Kaiulani who "the people adored". Here are the events of January 16th (details in Thurston's memoir): the Committee of Safety meets at Henry Waterhouse's house at 7:30pm to form a new government. They chose Dole to be the leader of the provisional government that would be established after the overthrow (when they took over Aliiolani Hale I assume) the next day. Dole later writes to his brother that he had suggested Kaiulani be made queen and the quotation you find in his biography. Earlier, Cleghorn met Thurston individually in the afternoon of the 16th and requested they consider Kaiulani. Here are Cleghorn's request: "I do not blame you for what you are proposing to do to Liliuokalani, Mr. Thurston. But I wish to submit for the consideration of the Committee of Safety whether it is necessary to overturn the monarchy entirely, and to have you take into consideration the claim of Princess Kaiulani. If you remove Liliuokalani from the throne, why not appoint Kaiulani, who is now the heir apparent, to be queen. You can appoint a board of regents to act during her minority, and I assure you that the community will have a very different state of affairs to deal with from that which Kalakaua and Liliuokalani have presented." KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅ I stuck a mention in the sentence about Dole recommending it, which resolves my questions about this. — Maile (talk) 02:02, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Almost there?
I think we're getting really close to publishing this. Need to expand the lead. There are a few areas to be cleared up, but I think we've come a long way, and I like how it is progressing. — Maile (talk) 00:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it is mostly there but still need some work. I am going to have to take a pause on this for now and return to this at another time. KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Then perhaps we should move this over to your user space to finish up when you have time. I've done all I can think of to do on this. — Maile  (talk) 10:41, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Copied and pasted to main article. Archived this talk page. See User:KAVEBEAR/Kaiulani for revision history on the draft. KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:33, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Can you still see what should still be done about the introduction? What major point should be noted? KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)