Talk:Kabylia/Archive 1

Untitled
i loohing for a flag of kabylie please contact me at : crackwindobe@voila.fr
 * Can we remove this spam? - Ahmed Djoudi 2018-01-06 13:21 (UTC)

Flag
Are we sure we can set the flag of a political movement (MAK) in this article? I forward to the discussion on the French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:Kabylie - Ahmed Djoudi 2018-01-06 13:25 (UTC)

Name
Wouldn't it make for better-sounding/looking English to refer to the Kabyle region "Kabylia" rather than just copying the French name? No neologisms, I know I know... But it just looks wrong somehow. Or perhaps the Kabyle name for the area is the best option? //Big Adamsky 18:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree with you: Kabylia instead of Kabylie. We should say Algerie then and not Algeria User:skafis

It s definitly better with Kabylia in English. Try to google it for find out more User:skafis

I disagree. The term Kabylie is substantially more widely used, even in English, while Kabylia sounds rather strange to Algerian ears. "Tamurt lleqbayel" would simply be too obscure. - Mustafaa 18:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: "Amazigh" was never used to describe the Kabyles until the mid-1980s, and refers to Berbers in general, not to Kabyles. Boumerdes is nto a Kabyle city, while Thenia is. Bejaia is not the easternmost Kabyle city by a long way. 8 million is so far from the truth it scarcely bears comment; there are less than 8 million Berbers in the entire country, including Chaouis and others. Try adding up wilayas at http://www.geohive.com/cd/link.php?xml=dz&xsl=neo1 if you seriously doubt this. - Mustafaa 18:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Google returns 94,400 English language hits for Kabylie and 44,000 for Kabylia. Per WP:COMMONNAME, I don't see an argument for moving it, so I'm removing the listing from WP:RM.  Anyone wishing to pursue the move request, please follow the procedure for regular (non-uncontroversial) proposals. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I strongly advocate for the use of "Kabylie" as the preferred name for the region. While the term "Kabylia" may appear to be an attempt to anglicize or align the name more closely with Algeria, it lacks significant usage in English-language sources. It is important that we prioritize accuracy in naming conventions. The name "Kabylie" has been widely accepted and recognized in both academic and popular discourse. Even advanced language models like ChatGPT, which have been trained on an extensive corpus of English-language sources, consistently use "Kabylie" when referring to the region. To support the use of "Kabylia," I would encourage the inclusion of reliable English-language sources, such as books, articles, and reputable websites, that consistently employ this term. Using "Kabylia" solely for the sake of anglicization or to sound more "Algerian" is not grounded in linguistic or academic precedent and should be avoided in favor of the established and widely accepted term, "Kabylie." --AhmedDjoudi (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

History section
Almost no reference for History section. In Antiquity, it references North Africa during Antiquity but if you look at the article, there is no mention of the word Kabylie or Kabylia. Moreover, it would be interesting to note that this article may be subject to controversy and propaganda due to the internal politics of the region. - Ahmed Djoudi 2018-01-06 13:00 (UTC)


 * just noting here that the History section is not translated from the French article, where this section is considerably longer. I am not saying it should be translated from French,as they were after all colonizers, but there may be references there for the colonial period at least. This is simply an observation made when trying to verify what I though a likely mistranslation of “Ce n’étais qu’en”. Most likely from Arabic then, if it is a translation, but I cannot verify this. I second the comment that there may be competing narratives, but would also like to point out that there may not be much literature, as written Berber did not exist until recently, something I discovered when trying to source the creation of one of the first grammars. An effort should be made to recruit experts however, and to the extent possible to reflect the history of Kabylie as written as Kabylie. Elinruby (talk) 02:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Population
The three-million population seems the most reasonable. Perhaps sources could be found if a higher figure is wanted. If a higher figure cannot be sourced, it shouldn't be added. Also, as with other articles about ethnic groups, it would be better to provide a picture of people in the infobox rather than a political symbol like a flag. — Gareth Hughes 12:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Garzo, but All Kabylian identify themself with this flag. Some years ago, did you believed Sagam Hussain when he says the non existance of the Kurds. Now everybody accept the fact that they are minimum 40 millions. People without state should have the right to speak about themself


 * In general, we have ceased to use political symbols in the ethnic infobox, replacing them with pictures of people (i.e. what the article is about). We are not talking about Kurds here, Ethnologue says there are around 3 million speakers of Kabyle language here. Until you can provide a reputable source for a population more than three times bigger, you should not add it to the article. — Gareth Hughes 13:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

This is what says etnologue.com: ''Population 	2,537,000 or more in Algeria (1995), 8% of the population. Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). Population total all countries 3,074,000 or more.'' Ther is no census avalaible since Kabilia is under occupated by a dictatorial regime. I go their every year, if you are interrested to know more, do the same. You will easily see that Kabylia have hte highest populations density. Kabylians represent themself as a people and not an ethnicity. You can not take them off the right to have a flag.


 * Higher estimates suggest that the population in Algeria may be as high as six million. I have yet to see a source that suggests that there are ten million worldwide. If you have no source for this information, do not add it. As the article Kabyle people has now been created, perhaps the ethnic infobox and some information about the people should be moved from this article to that. Ethnic infoboxes used to have national symbols in them, until these started to prove divisive, and pictures of people are generally used now — I am suggesting that we do the same here (and, no, that does not equate to taking 'them off the right to have a flag'). — Gareth Hughes 15:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Skafis' "maps" are absurd; they were made by taking every wilaya where there is a significant Kabyle minority or majority and lumping them all together. They correspond neither to the historic region termed "Kabylie" nor to the area where Kabyle is spoken. Boumerdes, for instance, is certainly not a Kabyle city, as anyone who's been there knows; and Jijel is entirely Arabophone. - Mustafaa 10:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

For sourced population estimates, see Berber_languages, under Algeria. You will note that for there to be anywhere near 8 million Kabyles, Kabyles would have had to have twice the birthrate of everyone else in Algeria for at least forty years - not likely! - Mustafaa 10:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

While you folks are arguing about all that, I have a new discussion item about this statement: ''The area is populated by the Kabyles, the second Berber group per order of importance after the Chleuhs in Morocco. '' What defines "order of importance"? Isn't that POV? --Eddylyons (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox changes
I've reverted the latest changes because: If you want to add any of those changes again, please explain here wy before you start. Unexplained changes will be considered vandalism. --Latebird 11:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The berber flag doesn't need to be shown twice.
 * We don't have an anthem, so that link is useless for now.
 * Kabylie is a geographical region and not an administrative entity, so it can't have a political capital itself.
 * relevant figures were removed and redundant units added.
 * the edit links for the Template:Infobox Kabylie (which is up for deletion) in the first footnote were entirely nonsensical here.
 * The second footnote linked to nowhere and was incomprehensible to read.

genetic studies
They have been done on kabyles, just read the paper. Agurzil 10:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Agurzil and thank you very much for your comment.
 * I have read the papers, in fact, I have perused both papers very carefully. I assure you, that unlike most editors and administrators, I have absolutely no vested personal interest in the project and simply correct inaccurate information in regard to the region, as I am familiar with it :)
 * The first paper uses a very small sample of "Berbers" from North Africa, including a very paltry number from Algeria. However, these "Berbers" are not Kabyles. Sadly, the label "berber" these days is used to refer to a very large number of unrelated people that have nothing in common with one another, and who live in vastly different lands (Western Sahara, Morocco, Algeria.) Please remember that Algeria alone is larger than four or five Western European countries combined. As such, the label is inaccurate, misleading and sadly, a result of lazy scholarship, if we can deem it that. The second paper does not use subjects from Algeria, nor from Mediterranean North Africa. In fact, it uses NorthWEST African subjects from, as stated:
 * "29 Saharawis, 40 southern Moroccan Berbers, 44 Moroccan Arabs, and 63 north-central Moroccan Berbers. Samples from the Iberian Peninsula included blood from 37 Andalusians, 16 Catalans, and 44 Basques."
 * If you are from Algeria or the Kabyle region, this fact by itself should convince you of the unacceptibility of using these studies in an article about the Kabyles, who have nothing to do with Saharawis or Southern Moroccans. The Kabyles are an insular people from the Mountainous Mediterranean Algerian coast, closer to Tunisia than to these aforementioned NorthWEST african countries, the former of which is not really North African but sub-saharan, West African. My sole concern is that the poor Kabyles not be misrepresented and robbed of their veritable identity, as seems to be the case on wikipedia. I have tried to make changes to all relevant pages, but sadly, have encountered considerable resistance from editors who have no real knowledge of the region, its diversity, vastness or people. I think the problem arises from the inaccurate and misleading literature on the Berbers on the "net" (including the Berber article on wikipedia), which is, sadly, written by incompetent people who probably know zilch about the Southern Mediterranean. It should therefore be our goal to undo the damage that has been done. Thank you for your time. FreelandC 06:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello, the study in question is that of arredi et al, see the link, the sample size is 19 and is from tizi ouzou.Agurzil 16:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * tizi ouzou is def. Kabyle... --Bob 21:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

North Africa covered with water?
I'm curious about the claim that North Africa was covered by water at the same time that it was inhabited by humans--my understanding is that this is not correct. I think it should be removed unless someone can provide a source. Dougg (talk) 02:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the entire section... or rather "rant". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

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Requested move 12 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved (closed by non-admin page mover)  Megan Barris   (Lets talk📧)  07:05, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Kabylie → Kabylia – WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH (Ngram). 2A01:CB1D:356:E300:B9D6:90B9:CD21:7D2F (talk) 21:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Megan Barris   (Lets talk📧)  20:59, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Note It was Relisted to determine consensus, from the arguments I see that there is a consensus to move, any editor opposing may request a move review. Best regards Megan Barris   (Lets talk📧)  07:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I think the WP:COMMONNAME even in English remains "Kabylie".--Ortizesp (talk) 02:21, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. From a look at sources, it seems usage is split and there is no one consensus version in English. But The ngram suggests that, of the two, Kabylia is likely to be numerically the more common, so I think it's a good idea to switch to that. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 07:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as it is clearer to English readers that Kabylia is a toponym. Kabylie is just French, but do readers pick up on that? Srnec (talk) 15:10, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

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 * Kabyle Kingdoms in the Ottoman era at their height .jpg (discussion)
 * Zirid Dynasty.jpg (discussion)

September 2021
With regard to this change:

You seem to be confusing Kabylia (the Kabyle speaking region) with the historic "Petite Kabylias" (mostly Arab speaking). The sources that you're using make that distinction and do not support the changes that you're making. If they did, the lead sentence of the article will have to be changed to include the "Arabs".

Your other addition the Kabyles fought the Roman Empire makes no sense as the term Kabyle didn't exist back then. M.Bitton (talk) 18:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)


 * No i'm a Kabyle from Boumerdes and i know what i said, you are an english , so stay away from Kabylia and it's legacy KBY15 (talk) 10:41, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I expect you to address the raised concerns. Where you are from is irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 12:24, 2 October 2021 (UTC)