Talk:Kaddish

Meaning of the word
Kad·dish (ˈkädiSH') -noun- an ancient Jewish prayer sequence regularly recited in the synagogue service, including Thanksgiving and praise and concluding with a prayer for universal peace. a form of Kaddish recited for the dead.

Social aspects
What about a section discussing the sociological aspects of the mourner's Kaddish? Eg. The Orthodox Jewish custom that only male relatives recite the Kaddish, and the dilemma which arises when there are no male heirs etc. Also the minimum age for reciting the Kaddish (Bar Mitvah), and the cultural aspects that non-Jewish readers might not appreciate, such as the fact that the prayer is generally recited by older members of a congregation, and the stigma/sadness/meaning(?) when teenagers have to recite the prayer for their parents. Also references to Jewish literary and other pop culture sources on the Kaddish (in addition to the books and essays, I recall an episode of the show Tour of Duty where the Lt. recites Kaddish for a fallen Jewish soldier,) and the question of whether it is appropriate to recite the prayer for non-Jews.

Line 33
What's the deal with line 33? Shouldn't it be "aleinu v'al kol yisrael v'imru amen"? At least that's what I've always said (and I just went back and double checked myself in an Artscroll siddur. If there are different versions of the text for this line, that should at least be noted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.21.200 (talk) 21:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Reworking
OK. I'd like to recommend an almost complete reworking of this page, as follows: Kaddish:

Background

 * What is the Kaddish
 * What kinds of Kaddish exist
 * Text, Transliteration & Translation of Chatzi Kadish

Origin & History

 * Origin
 * Why is it in Aramaic?


 * History
 * Talmud
 * Inclusion in Siddur

Purpose

 * Praise
 * Role in Liturgy
 * Standardization

Types of Kaddish
Kadish Shalem Kadish Yatom Kadish dRabanan Chatzi Kadish Graveside Kaddish others

where the text of each individual kaddish could be put into the individual articles "types of Kaddish" articles, along with transliterations and translations of each, and a background of each, including its role in the liturgy.

Text
What on earth is the point of giving the text of the Kaddish in another language that most English-speakers can't even read, much less understand? We should either give a translation or not have it at all. john k 03:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * This was a project that was started and never finished. I'll try to get back to it in the near future.  Tomer TALK  17:29, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Update, October 2005
I tried to move this along. Kaisershatner 17:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Translation and transliteration
At this site is given both a translation and a tranliteration.


 * TRANSLATION OF KADDISH

Thank you  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.3.120 (talk) 00:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.

May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.

Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.


 * KADDISH TRANSLITERATION

Yis'ga'dal v'yis'kadash sh'may ra'bbo, b'olmo dee'vro chir'usay v'yamlich malchu'say, b'chayaychon uv'yomay'chon uv'chayay d'chol bais Yisroel, ba'agolo u'viz'man koriv; v'imru Omein.

Y'hay shmay rabbo m'vorach l'olam ul'olmay olmayo.

Yisborach v'yishtabach v'yispoar v'yisromam v'yismasay, v'yishador v'yis'aleh v'yisalal, shmay d'kudsho, brich hu, l'aylo min kl birchoso v'sheeroso, tush'bechoso v'nechemoso, da,ameeran b'olmo; vimru Omein.

Y'hay shlomo rabbo min sh'mayo, v'chayim alaynu v'al kol Yisroel; v'imru Omein.

Oseh sholom bimromov, hu ya'aseh sholom olaynu, v'al kol yisroel; vimru Omein.

The translation give here is fairly traditional, but I see no credit to a specific translator. DES (talk) 20:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

this site gives a similar but not identical tranalation:


 * Translation --

Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will.

May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

this site gives line by line hebrew, transliteration, and english traslation for the Mourner's Kaddish. it carries a copyright notice, and again does not credit a particular translator. DES (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * But of course such translation could have just been made by the Wikipedia editor and not any published translator. I don't think a transliteration is necessary here, and it gets too complicated considering different accents and transcription conventions. --jnothman talk 10:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

New "text of kaddish"
Does this belong here or in WikiSource? I assume the latter, but would like someone to agree. jnothman talk 15:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with "both"? :-) Tom e rtalk  01:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...I don't think the text is quite long enough to send it to wikisource (although I would support adding it to wikisource, I wouldn't support removing it from the article). That said, the fonts you used are...unpleasing...especially the italicized versions... Tom e rTALK 04:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The fonts used were the fonts used by the prior editor of that text. I am not sure what to do about Hebrew fonts when you want the vowels to show correctly. Having Ezra SIL on my computer, I wouldn't say it looks unpleasing as such, though... What do you suggest? Thanks for the feedback. jnothman talk 05:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I dunno...something sans serif maybe wouldn't look so pixelated. Also, what's the source for the text?  I see "vechayim `aleinu ve`al kol yisra'el" everywhere, even "vechayim tovim `aleinu ve`al kol yisra'el", but not "vechayim lanu ul'khol yisra'el". Tom e rtalk  01:48, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Appropriate place for such discussion is probably Talk:Kaddish. Still: the sources were essentially found quickly on the internet. I was too tired at the time to do thorough research, but was fed up looking at the ugly page that was there! The lanu, though is an artifact of my inability in deciding how to note that "lanu" follows "v'revach v'hatzzala" (or really "rewah whazzala" when I often hear it), but "ʻalenu" occurs in the Ashkenazi variant and follows "chayyim". It should probably be added as a footnote. As for "tovim", we should probably include that but it will mean splitting line 28 and thus renumbering in the text and in the footnotes. jnothman talk 04:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, so ya. I think it would probably be sufficient to note the inclusion of "tovim" simply in a footnote, it would be nice if we could track down its origin and distribution... Tom e rtalk  04:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * No, we can't actually: it would be inconsistent, considering the other uses of [brackets] to refer to minor variations in nusach. If someone can research it, or knows where to, we could have a separate section on nusach variations, or maybe this belongs in a more general Jewish prayers article. jnothman talk 04:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

btw, lines 29-31 translate as:
 * and satiety, and salvation, and comfort, and saving (in the sense of "maintaining", I think...IZAK may know for sure)
 * and health and redemption and pardon and atonement
 * and plenty and deliverance (or "rescuing")

Hope that helps... Tom e rtalk 07:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It does. Thank you. jnothman talk 08:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Yitgaddel veyitqaddesh vs. Yitgaddal veyitqaddash
Footnote 2 currently says "On line 1, some say Yitgaddel veyitqaddesh rather than Yitgaddal veyitqaddash, putting these words into a Hebrew rather than an Aramaic form." Shouldn't that be "yitgaddeil v'yitqaddeish", and shouldn't it also say "putting these words into an Aramiac rather than Hebrew form"? 15:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * "Yitgadél wayitqadésh" is Hebrew (see Qdushah in Siddur). "Yitgadál wayitqadásh" is Judeo-Aramaic.Evrey9 (talk) 16:15, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Nowhere else here is a tsere written as 'ei', so no. And again, no, such a pronunciation is putting the word into a Hebrew form, hitpa'el instead of aramaic itpa'al. jnothman talk 13:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * According to a big long discussion on mj a few months ago, its original form in some traditions does indeed use the Hebrew form. This was apparently more common before the Sho'a.  Tom e rtalk  07:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added some material on this, which I hope meets with everyone's approval.Sussmanbern (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Too POV. Rewrite.
The point is that there are several nuschaos for Kaddish. I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet. For another example, the phrase "v'yatzmach purkoney vikoreyv m'shichey" is according to the Ari z"l but nusach Ashkenaz omits it. The Temani (Yemenites) say it, along with even more words.  Also, the responsorial customs (where to say amen, whether to continue with yisborech/yisborach or even until shmey d'kudsha b'rich hu) differ widely.  Furthermore, to transliterate into Roman script begs some sort of discussion of different havaros (ways to pronounce the Hebrew).  This is one of the most varied prayers in Judaism—I would say, even more than the Shmoneh Esrey on a word-for-word basis.  As presently written, with occasional brackets around words and "Some people say..." as footnotes, ain't cuttin'.  I suggest this article cut out the transliteration, list one Hebrew kaddish with translation (I'm Lubavitch but Ashkenaz is most common), discuss the difference in nusach, and link to a Wikisource article listing the different nuschaos, possibly transliteration in different havaros correspondingly (e.g., ...sh'mai d'kid'shu b'rich hi (Cong.: b'rich hi)...). Steve Shuck 13:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no reason a discussion of the variations you metion can't be included right here in this article. Tom e rtalk  23:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I have just bracketed the words veyitsmach purkanei et cetera due to the same reasons stated above. As a curiosity, in my community there is now a (luckily very light) dispute due to the occasional use of the new chief Rabbi of the Mizrachi form, to which the traditional Italian community traditionally opposed the shorter version, incidentally sponsored by the all-pervading siddur of Rav Disegni z"l, which is the closest thing to a codification of the Minhag Yitalki. I hope Rav Arbib understands my standing...--UbUb 17:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

11 months and Gehinom
On the Purgatory page, someone wrote "Rabbinic literature describes gehinom as a place or state of temporary suffering immediately after death. A belief in the efficacy of prayers for the dead is manifest in the Mourner's Kaddish which is prayed for 11 months after a loved one dies." Here on this page we read, "It is important to note that the Mourners' Kaddish does not mention death at all, but instead praises God. Though the Kaddish is often popularly referred to as the "Jewish Prayer for the Dead," that designation more accurately belongs to the prayer called "El Maleh Rachamim," which specifically prays for the soul of the deceased." Can someone shed some light on this? Jonathan Tweet 14:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Leon Wieseltier
Leon Wieseltier wrote Kaddish after his father's death and writes very sympathetically and in a historically highly relevant way about kaddish - its meaning and halachic perspective. Should definitely be included here. JFW | T@lk  20:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Unicode
I am a Hebrew text entry newbie (or in this case Aramaic), however, as I was going thru the text today, I a problem.

I believe that the Dagesh character must be added before other vowels -- perhaps since it's more a part of the character? -- such as the Patah in "talmidai." When I copied it into Melell, which is a unicode-savvy editor, the dagesh was outside the letter.

I can't edit this right now. But if someone has the time to go through it ...

David Morgenstern

71.131.179.71 22:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Kaddishbands link is advertising?
Whoever has editing rights on the Kaddish page should evaluate whether the external link for Mourner's Kaddish Bands to Kaddishbands.com is prohibited advertising.

Garbanzo28 02:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garbanzo28 (talk • contribs) 02:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Yeah, definitely. THE KC (talk) 22:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC).

I'm new generation
After reading a quick introduction I skip to the links to get some movie/song/short documentation. - A link to Ofra Haza's interpretation is definitivly missing (youtube). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.22.192.76 (talk) 10:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Types of Kaddish
In the section in which several different types of Kaddish are listed, it reads that the Hazi Kaddish, or Half Kaddish is commonly referred to as the "Reader's Kaddish." This is incorrect. The reader's Kaddish is hte Full Kaddish, or Kaddish Shelem. This should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.26.236.226 (talk) 21:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Lord's Prayer
How can the Lord's Prayer of Christianity have its roots in the Kaddish if the oldest version of the Kaddish, according to this article, goes back to 900 AD/CE? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.202.208 (talk) 07:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The oldest extant version giving a full text of the Kaddish goes back to 900 CE. That does not mean that the prayer in some form was not said long before then. In exactly the same way, the oldest surviving Greek manuscripts of the New Testament containing the Lord's Prayer date from the 4th century CE, but the New Testament as such is obviously far older and the prayer was said before then. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 12:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

audio
I would love to learn to say these prayers, but I did not grow up Jewish or learn Hebrew. I like learning languages, but I do much, much better if I can hear it. Could someone with a native or near-native accent recite and record these clearly and at a moderately slow pace and post the audio? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drjrodriguez (talk • contribs) 03:55, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Baruch Shem
Baruch Shem Kavod Malchuso l'Olom Vaw-ed does not appear in either of the two Torah citations, nor, to my incomplete knowledge, anywhere in Torah. It is traditionally recited between Deut 6:4 (Shema) and Deut 6:5 (v'Awhavtaw), sotto voce in most synagogues except some Reform congregations, and fortissimo on Yom Kippur, the purpose being to prevent anyone from hearing the actual pronunciation of the Name of God when recited by the High Priest of the Temple. 72.226.74.239 (talk) 19:27, 26 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Er, I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is relevant. Baruch Shem is not mentioned in this article and does not form part of the Kaddish. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 12:29, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Aramaic references
It needs to be clarified that the non-roman text in this article is Hebrew and *not* Aramaic. The origination of the hymn as Aramaic and the transliteration of certain components of the hymn historically from Aramaic into Hebrew does not make the Hebrew characters Aramaic characters. View the wikipedia article on Aramaic alphabet for the distinction. I have temporarily removed headings listing Hebrew characters as Aramaic to correct this however more work is required. If the linguistic history of the hymn is to be included at all, it might be more relevant and clear in a separate article - as currently composed neither is accomplished,  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.244.85 (talk) 17:19, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, what we now call the Hebrew alphabet was borrowed from Aramaic. The older Hebrew alphabet found in inscriptions was quite different. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:08, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Hebrew transliteration seems inconsistent?
How come chaf (כ/ךְ) is transliterated as "kh", while chet (ח) is transliterated as ḥ? I've only ever heard them pronounced the same way (I'm of Ashkenazi extraction). Is there a difference in Sephardi, or any other pronounciation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.156.163 (talk) 08:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, the two letters sound quite different in some Hebrew accents. The Het sounds like a stronger H, like the German A(ch)tung, while the Khaf sounds like a proper throat-clearing sound. Ariehkovler (talk) 10:18, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Modern variants
Should we have a section about modern variants, and especially the addition of "v'al kol yoshvei tevel" to the Oseh Shalom? Peter Chastain  [¡habla!]  18:16, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have now added this. Peter Chastain   [¡habla!]  00:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Minyan requirement
In my new section "Minyan requirement", in referring to Wayne Dosick's kavanah invoking a heavenly "minyan", I fear I might be giving too much prominence to one individual's POV. My intention was to portray a variety of halachic and liberal practice, if such a variety actually exists. I hope other editors will improve on this. Peter Chastain  [¡habla!]  22:11, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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Harlan Ellison
Back in '74, Harlan wrote a short story, I'm Looking for Kadak, (https://reiszwolf.wordpress.com/2020/04/30/im-looking-for-kadak-%E2%80%A2-1974-%E2%80%A2-sf-novelette-by-harlan-ellison/) about a non-human Jew on a far off planet trying to find a tenth person for a minyan to sit shiva. I don't have access to a copy and don't know for sure if Kaddish is explicitly mentioned so I'm reluctant to add it to the list right now. I'm mentioning it here so that if anybody runs across this and knows that Kaddish is mentioned, they might be encouraged to add it. Of course, if I find a copy and it does, I'll add it myself. JDZeff (talk) 21:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)