Talk:Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery and Tibetan Centre

Celebrity citations
Please provide a credible reference for the assertion that David Bowie and Leonard Cohen were 'students' at the centre. The reference supplied is a newspaper article which says they were frequent visitors but this needs credible citation as well. A newspaper article which merely repeats an assertion made to a copy journalist is not an adequate citation. Neither David Bowie nor Leonard Cohen's Wikipedia entries mention Samye Ling nor do internet searches support the assertion. If no sources are provided I suggest the reference be re-written to indicate that it is a commonly held belief amongst the members of the community that they were students. One could also hope for an explanation of why David Bowie and Leonard Cohen's alleged association with the community is considered notable. Indeed are these the only notable people to have studied at Samye Ling in its 40 + years? Rinpoche (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Images
I've deleted the gallery and the host of superfluous images added to "Tourist Attraction". In general Wikipedia should not be used as an image depository. Wikimedia Commons should be used for that and there is a template already provided in "External Links" to direct the reader.

For Wikipedia policy on galleries see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Image_galleries : this gallery fails the rule-of-thumb test that they should not be inserted where they serve only to illustrate the article title.

Regarding the section "Tourist Attraction" it's absurd it provided more images than the article on Canterbury Cathedral provides for itself. As for the section itself it should only be inserted so long as it provides information about the centre as a Tourist Attraction (for example statistics demonstrating the contribution it make to Scottish tourism or perhaps the local economy). Presently it doesn't do that and the suspicion must be that the real intention is to advertise the centre. I suggest the section should be deleted if it is not adequately expanded. Rinpoche (talk) 12:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Trungpa Rinpoche
I have added a brief comment about the circumstances in which Trungpa Rinpoche left sourced by his widow. No more than a brief comment is necessary in this article but it seems to me the episode deserves expansion, perhaps in a page dealing with exploitation of minors in religious communities in general.
 * Piya Tan has a useful and skilful essay Avoiding unwholesome teacher-pupil relationships referencing Trungpa and the Samye Ling abuse allegations and I've linked this into the ==Abuse allegations== section.Rinpoche (talk) 11:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

That Trunpa Rinpoche and Akong Rinpoche quarreled is cited in the reference provided. That the Johnstone House trustees were also in conflict is hearsay known to me and may reasonably be surmised in the circumstances but I know of no published source. I don't really see the point of challenging the reference but I will remove it if it is challenged with a template. Meanwhile please don't remove it while I attempt to locate a source. Rinpoche (talk) 14:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do provide a citation. I agree with your remarks about the "tourist " section - although I imagine it must have a relatively significant impact in an area with few other immediate competitors. I would take care in alleging "paedophile exploitation" even on a talk page unless you are very sure of your ground. I have heard stores about the Bowie connection. However it may be difficult to source as it pre-dates the internet era. Ben   Mac  Dui  20:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The difficulty is contacting the original trustees (I only know of one still living) and I suspect "their lips are sealed". But I do vaguely remember a published source which I'll try to get hold of. I've rephrased my remark about "paedophile exploitation". Diana Mukpo's memoir makes it clear that she was 15 years old when her relationship began and that she was (in her own words) "naive". I've linked the Google Books extract in the reference. I think it quite possible David Bowie and Leonard Cohen visited the centre but does that make them students? Is it notable or 'encyclopaedic'? In the context of an expanded section describing (for want of a better word) the 'hippy' days at Samye Ling possibly. Otherwise I frankly don't see the point and I certainly don't think it should stand without citation. Rinpoche (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added a reference from Anne Bancroft's (the academic, not the film star) 1976 "Twentieth Century Mystics and Sages". Best I can do without inducing a potentially fatal apoplexy in some aging dharma luvvy or other of the time.Rinpoche (talk) 16:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth I tried searching for Samye Ling in the VisitScotland in-line link provided in the article. Not one of dozens of hits provided in fact returned a viable page ("object not found")! I think Ben MacDui makes a reasonable point is saying there are no competitors (but there are some - the Eskdalemuir weather observatory and the curious Davington link with James Hogg not to mention the idyllic scenery of course ...).Rinpoche (talk) 22:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Happily I've found a reference to a Scottish tartan desinged by Lama Yeshe Losal which I think is genuinely notable and I thought to rename the "Tourist Attraction" section to "Scottish sensibilty" and include this item. Unfortunately I can't upload the image provided by the Scottish Kilt Compnay on their website for copyright reasons but it should be a straightforward matter for one of the monks at the centre to scan their bit of tartan edging and upload it.Rinpoche (talk) 00:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Other remarks
The external link to The Scotsman is defunct. I'll search their site and see if I can restore. Otherwise I'll delete it. A description of the template for citing web resources can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_web Rinpoche (talk) 09:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Couldn't locate on a search. I'll give it 90 days grace to restore but it looks as if it has been deleted from their server.Rinpoche (talk) 10:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * In fact the Scotsman reference was essentially repeated twice and once as an external link. One of the reference links is still good (copyright?) and I've combined the two and deleted the defunct external link. The Scotsman reference by the way demonstrates the essentially unsatisfactory nature of newspaper references. John Lennon and Yoko Ono certainly never visited Samye Ling, that's just valley myth. Newspaper citations are valid for newsworthy items but they shouldn't really be used otherwise.Rinpoche (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

'Abuse Allegations'
Scottish JPs are not usually called 'magistrates' and sheriffs certainly aren't. Was the 2000 case heard in the District Court (which seems unlikely) or the Sheriff Court?Costesseyboy (talk) 15:22, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there some public records that can be referenced?Billlion (talk) 19:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Continuity
A paragraph begins "For about the decade 1970 onwards these two and Akong Rinpoche together" yet there is no lead in reference as to who the two are as the previous paragraph ends with the exit of CT.

86.158.95.112 (talk) 16:19, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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