Talk:Kale (Welsh Roma)

Pronounciation
How is Kale pronounced? The obvious way is , like the vegetable. However, I suspect it should be something like ' or '. This is would be consistent by alternative form Kalá, with the Finnish Kale (Kaale; Kalé) and with the Caló language. It's probably in the OED: please look it up if you have access, and update the article (see Manual of Style/Pronunciation). Verbcatcher (talk) 18:00, 1 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's not in the OED. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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Population of 3,000?
The source for this just says there are 3,000 "gypsies" in Wales, and since this article seems to treat Kale as separate from "romani who happen to live in Wales" this number is likely too high. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 09:35, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Further research has dug up an estimate that there were 700 to 1,000 Kale in Wales in 2000 from the PhD thesis "'INVISIBLE LIVES': THE GYPSIES AND TRAVELLERS OF BRITAIN" by Colin Clark - it seems doubtful that the population could have tripled in two decades. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:57, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * A population can change from migration as well as having babies and members of the community may have moved in and out of Wales. The thesis you mention is available here.. The figure is on page 109 and is sourced to 'Jarman, A. and Jarman, E. (1991)', so this figure is from 1991, not 2000. The original source appears to be an earlier edition of the 2011 book cited in our 'References' section, so there may be an updated figure in the latest edition. PhD theses from reputable universities are usually accepted as reliable sources, so this could be cited. But we should indicate 'as of 1991' and cite the indirect source, see WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT. Verbcatcher (talk) 05:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "A population can change from migration as well as having babies and members of the community may have moved in and out of Wales." I still do not see how a tripling in two decades could have occured (the current source cited for population is from 2011). --Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not defending the 3,000 figure which is misrepresenting the source. We should change it to "700 to 1,000 (in 1991)", but please try to get a more modern reliable estimate. Verbcatcher (talk) 07:20, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done. Verbcatcher (talk) 07:41, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Lead sentence
The definition in the lead sentence looks wrong. This is currently: "The Kale [...] are a group of Romani people in Wales." The article should be about the community, and members of the community may be living outside Wales. I suggest "...originating in Wales". Also, perhaps we should describe them as an 'ethnic group' in the main text. I think they meet the definition in that article. Verbcatcher (talk) 05:17, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "originating" would perhaps be misleading considering we are discussing a group that migrated to Wales and then diverged via from the larger group it came from via separation. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It appears that the the Kale only became a distinctive group when they were in Wales, so it is accurate to say that the Kale originated in Wales. If you go back far enough every population group in Europe originated somewhere else. But I agree that 'originating' may not be ideal. I now propose "The Kale [...] are a group of Welsh Romani people." Verbcatcher (talk) 07:15, 19 October 2021 (UTC)