Talk:Kaliningrad Oblast/Archive 2

Expanded History in Aug. 2005
Expanded history section is much better than nothing. But as of now it, especially a "Russians" chapter, looks like very POV and rather "original research". Also, duplication with Kaliningrad.

So the section just cries for these two templates:
 * Template:POV-section
 * Template:Disputed-section

For now, the problems are all too obvious and don't even need to be listed singly. I do not want to hit the section with templates so shortly after it was written and would rather give an editor who wrote this a chance to correct/improve the most obvious things and provide the sources of the multiple speculations, so that we can see this is not the editor's own line of thinkig (See No original research policy chapter). I also hope we can avoid the confrontation and revert wars. Same as a while ago the compromises were reached at Baltic Russians, there is no reason why they can't be reached here. TIA, --Irpen 21:43, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think the history section is needed as long as we have the article on East Prussia. No need for duplication. In our case, we have Lithuanians shamelessly using Wikipedia to promote their irredentist view of Kaliningrad Oblast as Lithuania Minor. This newly-derived term reminds me about "Russia Minor", as Ukraine used to be called. In the 21st century, all this stuff is so stupid that any discussion would be a loss of time. --Ghirlandajo 22:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I edited a bit DeirYassin 22:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, Ghirlandajo makes a good point. This is an article not about the historical region (which would be East Prussia) but about the administrative subdivision of Russia. I agree that history belongs to the region article. DeirYassin, you offered the same line of thinking a while ago when you were saying that there is a reason why Abrene region and Pytalovo Raion articles are suppose to be devoted to two different things. By this logic, cutting this article short would probably make sense. What do you say? --Irpen 22:46, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * To User:Ghirlandajo: History section is of course needed; Kaliningrad Oblast had history after East Prussia too; in fact, Kaliningrad Oblast was established after East Prussia was gone. What you are saying makes it seem that you believe that in the mentioned area the only true history is that of Germans and East Prussia, and that Lietuvininks who lived there and Russians who lives there now are not important to that history for some reason. Anf Lithuania Minor is not a newly derived term btw, it is mentioned at least since 17th century (at the time Lithuania Minor flag was created); the idea was promoted by some Germans too, such as Zauervein, who composed anthem for Lithuania Minor in XIX century. Maybe the name gives you wrong impression by the way: "Lithuania Minor" is not meant to mean that it is now some kind of Lithuania outside Lithuania or such by any means; it is rather a name to call one of ethnographic regions of Lithuanian nation (the others being Samogitia, Sudovia, Aukštaitija and Dzūkija) which once used to exist in eastern part of what is now Kaliningrad Oblast (and also in Memelland)). The only time when the existance of Lithuania Minor was denied was during Soviet era, when the parts of Lithuania Minor left in Lithuanian SSR were considered to be part of another ethnographic region Samogitia instead - because of political reasons (as Soviet government understandably did not wanted the sentiments of people inside USSR that their nation has not all historical area given to them or such). And no one says that Kaliningrad Oblast *is* the Lithuania Minor, but rather that there were Lithuanian people of this ethnographic region in eastern lands of what is now Kaliningrad Oblast *once*. We talk about history here, not any current claims or such which are of course non-existent. And indeed, given all the evidence including sermons in churches in Lithuanian, Lithuanian books and famous Lithuanians who were born in these areas when they were populated by Lietuvininks, discussing about it would be stupid, it is as if some Soviet historian would have doubted if East Prussia ever was populated by Germans.


 * To User:Irpen: As for separating the information of previous sections up until section "Russians" - I think it might be done to some extent, however, I think basic history of the area, what nationalities inhabitted it and such, should be given, as the area's history is quite different to that of other parts of European Russia. Same as if there'd be separate article on Pytalovo rajon, the dispute and link to Abrene region would be mentioned there. So here are also links to East Prussia and in this article I posted only the very basic info about East Prussia as a state and more information is about different groups of people who all left their mark in the region and just about this region, not about southern parts of East Prussia and Memelland. So I think this basic information should remain, so people who knw nothin about history of this area would at least understand why German and Lithuanian names for towns are given in brackets, why they are so different from current names, and if they are interested, read more at East Prussia (also Teutonic Order State, the state which was in the area prior to East Prussia) about the state itself. DeirYassin 22:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

DeirYassin, the territory did change hands but it remained there and one article for its history can still exist under the name that is most commonly known (and that's East Prussia). Perhaps, East Prussia article needs to be modified to be not just an article about the Prussian province, but more of an area and its hisotry. There are already examples: Bukovina, Carpathian Ruthenia to name a few. This article would then be about Oblast, its raions, visa issues for Russian citizens to travel there and back (which is relevant to current oblast status), etc. The history of the area may be outlined but in very shortly and for the rest the reader would go to a territory article. --Irpen 23:14, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


 * The history was before East Prussia too though: firstly Prussian people, then Teutonic Order State; and Kaliningrad Oblast, the current name of area, could encompass the history of it which in separate articles such as East Prussia would only be about the times the mentioned entities existed. East Prussia does not exists anymore, it is a historical entity, I don't know therefore why it should include something more than information about the entity itself and it's history; while the land is now known as Kaliningrad Oblast in the Russian Federation. The difference from such areas as Bukovina here is that there was no continuation here: Bukovina is still Bukovina even if it has no actual official status, while Kaliningrad Oblast is no longer East Prussia, it doesn't has East Prussian people either. Therefore I think it would be most NPOV to add the general history of the area to this article as this (Kaliningrad Oblast) is what the area undisputably is now. Using East Prussia article as the main vessel for history of the area, including pre-East Prussian and pre-German history, would maybe be POV, similarly to if e.g. history would be sent to Lithuania Minor article or such. Or you don't think so? DeirYassin 23:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, before getting into details of your current version of history, let's wait what others would say regarding the very idea of having it here. If we end up preserving this, we'll discuss it. So far, it looks very much distorted towards a Russophobic POV, but I don't want to spend time discussing this yet, until there is some conlcusion that this history belongs to the article at all. Regards, --Irpen 03:59, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * I keep reverting edits as they does not solves any problems and either deletes it all, or changes one POV by another POV, also the last edit deleted information about Oblast after WW2 and such: all information that is against opinion of the one who added it probably. What was written in history was mainly about East Prussia, and Kaliningrad Oblast is just a part of that area, therefore reverting to the history section with more information about the oblast for now. I agree that it is biased at some places, but the new article included such things as "Although the ethnic make-up of East Prussia was 73.48% German, 18.39% Polish, and 8.11% Lithuanian (as of 1875), the Lithuanian nationalists fancifully alluded to East Prussia as Lithuania Minor", which are just because of lack of knowledge, as Lithuania Minor was not all East Prussia and not even all Kaliningrad Oblast, but only a part of it where Lithuanians made majority (northeast) - overally, including all the German and Polish inhabitted areas, of course Lithuanians made a minority also, Lithuania Minor was germanizing quickly by XIX century, and it was at it's top at at 17th, to some extent 18th centuries. By late 19th century Lithuanian majority remained only in Memelland and what is now northeast of Kaliningrad Oblast, so of course overally they made few population as province of East Prussia included much more lands to the south and west.


 * It would be better to decide here, or do minor change after a minor change and so reach the most NPOV version, as by quick huge changes and reverts the problem won't disappear as no one probably is fully neutral 213.190.42.88 17:04, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, what right do you have to delete other people's work? If you feel unhappy about the current NPOV, use edit button instead of flooding the article with nationalistic crap wholesale. Otherwise, you may be blocked for vandalism. --Ghirlandajo 17:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I also fail to see where you found "valuable info" on post-WWII oblast in the edit moved by me to Lithuania Minor: it's POV, pure and simple - all this whining about the topography being not Lithuanianized and the ridiculous proposal to establish the Baltic state. --Ghirlandajo 17:38, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * To Ghirlandajo - you seem to really have trouble with lithuanians and everytime call them "nationalists", so please, state sources on which you rely? If you ask us to prove every statement documentary ir would be nice of you too - to make things even.
 * Because it looks like all your sources on the topic are russian State TV, and only russian web sites (which i suppose also means "nationalistic" approach?). If you please be so kind and spend some time reading german or lithuanian documentary and historical research, you might change your view about supposedly "nationalistic" POV. I think there is little doubt, why Russian propaganda wants to put things differently, than they were in fact. And just a question - have you ever been in Kaliningrad and have you ever seen how does it look ?
 * Sorry for personal appeal.
 * Update - if you ever consider reading some research - here is historiography (sorry, text is lithuanian) http://ausis.gf.vu.lt/mg/nr/2001/04/04mli.html
 * --Lokyz 00:43, 2005 September 5 (UTC)


 * POV can be changed to NPOV by additions and edits rather than changing it into another POV. There was no whining. It is a fact that at first Soviet government planned to attach the area to Lithuanian SSR, but met opposition from Lithuanian SSR leadership. If the fact is against your agenda, it does not means it should be removed - how the enclave of Russia outside Russia formed might be of interest to people who does not know history of the area well, and this is what encyclopedia is for.


 * Lithuania Minor is not the same area as Kaliningrad Oblast really. You seem to think that it is the same or that it is some way for Lithuanians to claim the area, which is clearly not true. Lithuania minor included some lands of Kaliningrad Oblast, true, but the ethnographic region itself had many lands outside of it too and not all Kaliningrad Oblast was ever part of Lithuania Minor, western Kaliningrad Oblast was not. Therefore it is wrong to consider both to be same thing. As I said above, Lithuania Minor is ethnographic region of Lithuanian nation; that is, a part of nation, bound together by similar folklore, dialect, lifestyle and such and it is a historical thing; it really is not some kind of current claim or such as you seem to understand it. The existance of such group is well documented, as I said aknowledged by local Germans, considering the Lithuanian part of East Prussia as the Lithuanian Province, usage of Lithuanian language in churches and such, people in there themselves having a Lithuanian identity, creating a flag (in 17th century) and such to represent them, etc. If you don't know history of Lithuanians in East Prussia, well then, don't edit it out just cause of not knowing.


 * The idea for Baltic Republic really exists in Kaliingrad Oblast (and it is not Baltic state as in the meaning of Baltic States), but it is very marginal (supported just by a group of people) - but wikipedia is big, even such things as Samogitian Economical Authority and Republic of New Africa has their place. However, you probably are right that this probably does not needs to be mentioned in article about Kaliningrad Oblast in general. If your edit would be a minor one, just removing the information about this Baltic Republic, I would not have said anything; but instead of correcting POV in a few places, you remove everything. Of course, more information would be needed to the history section, about the Oblast during Soviet years and such, but you could add more instead of removing.DeirYassin 19:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I edited some now, added back the information which is right, di dnot add some of what you think is POV and about Baltic Republic. Left your wording too (edited out just some where it is inaccurate/irrelevant (information about Memelland, which is not related to Kaliningrad Oblast, only to East Prussia) or if I expanded). I hope this will be good for you, and that you won't remove information, but instead prove your opinion here if you still disagree with something DeirYassin 19:43, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

History - first sentence
"Historically, the area was part of East Prussia until its partition between Poland (Warminsko-Mazurskie Voivodship), Lithuania (Memelland), and Russia (Kaliningrad Oblast) following the WWII." - seems to me not very accurate. I would like to add some dates here:
 * part of East Prussia since?
 * partition - Memelland was splited from East Prussia following WWI (1919) then briefly was reincorporated (1939-1945) into East Prussia during WWII. This area (Memelland) has not much to do with Kaliningrad Oblast, so I doubt if Lithuania should be mentioned in this sentence at all.

Proposal: "Historically, the area was part of East Prussia since 15th century until its partition between Poland (Warminsko-Mazurskie Voivodship), Lithuania (Memelland), and Russia (Kaliningrad Oblast) following the WWII."

Dirgela 19:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the revert
I will revert back the past revert, as it was done without explaination and some of things reverted are ridiculous (such as reverting added comma, which was correction of a grammatical mistake and had nothing to do with supposed POV). And seriously, I cannot see how sentence "as a just retribution for unprecedented massacre of Russian civilians during the WWII." is NPOV - encyclopedia cannot decide what is just and what is not, it is up to reader to decide; even for really injust or just things encyclopedia cannot state it; encyclopedia must remain as neutral as possible. Also, I corrected the mistake where it said that whole northern East Prussia was ceded to Russian SFSR, as the northernmost part of it (Klaipėda region/Memelland) was added to Lithuanian SSR. Also, it is truth what I wrote in my correction that most Lithuanians does not know about the plans to add the area to Lithuanian SSR after WW2; the documents were not public for long. Therefore the "Lithuanians believe" is wrong, as most of them don't even know or care about this. This will be my last edit here for now unless POV will be added. DeirYassin 14:59, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

LSSR refusal
I find it unbelievable someone could "refuse" Stalin. Unless you present the documents, the phrase will be deleted. mikka (t) 15:20, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * it has nothing to do with Stalin karaliauczius was offered to LSSR by Chruschiow, because at this time all te RTFSR regions failed to grow grain according to plan comitee's plans. Onlyr LSSR some way (with cheating of course)succeeded in doing that. Afterall it is highly questionable thing, and widely accepted version is that Snieckus being (kind of) nationalistic didn't want a russian enclawe in Lithunania SSR (other version - in a SSSR nobody wanted to have economicaly stick-in-the-mud oblastj. Also ironicaly called "16-th" republic - i can state it by oral history research).

Anyway I can prove it with historical research books - only lithuanian (russian still are fighting the WWIII and no chance to see any documents from secret Moscow archives) --Lokyz 01:14, 2005 September 3 (UTC)

History
I apopogize for criticism without adding something useful, but unfortunately I have little knowledge in the area. Nevertheless... Division of the history of any "historical era" by century boundaries (which are arbitrary in the time flow) is non-scientific. Normally it is done by changes of ownership or other notable dates. The corresponding subsections that describe clearly defined periods such as East Prussia must be summaries with references to "main article" with details only immediately related to the territory in question. Otherwise we will have duplication with maintenance problems. mikka (t) 15:20, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Mikkalai - it's ok to criticise or point at what seems to be doubtful for you of course. The information about the refusal is based on one of Lietuvos Ryto Televizija historical documentic shows, the one which was about the establishment of Kaliningrad Oblast. As far as I remember, allegedly from what is possible to reconstruct from existing documents, Antanas Sniečkus, leader of Lithuanian SSR, feared to directly refuse Stalin, therefore he did that through some other person, who was closer to Stalin. the outcome might have been different, but one of the reasons why the oblast was planned to be part of Lithuanian SSR disappeared: the US politician who promised in his electoral program to attempt to question the belonging of the area to Soviet Union was not elected; therefore there was no more any need to create a propaganda based on history of Lietuvininks that the region historically belonged to one of nations of the union. The only reason which remained then for adding area to Lithuanian SSR was the geographical one, but it was not strong enough. Too bad I seen this few years ago and don't remember exact dates, names and documents, but it was an interesting research. If you will insist though, it can be removed; although it is true information. I don't want to continue edit wars and revertings however, so I hope some agreement will be reached quickly. As for the division, previously it was done by me according to main nationalities of the area (Prussians, Germans/Lithuanians, Russians), later this was modified by another user who also added more info about East Prussia as a whole instead. I don't want to get into a real revert war over that issue, but I agree with you Mikkalai. DeirYassin 16:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It would be very nice for you to research the issue further, since my knowledge of Lithuanian barely allows me to translate the " Lithuanian Morning TV" :-). I will try to look for something in Polish/Russian/English. Indeed, this exclave does look strange. Also, while the history of prussians we can dig, the real void is what/when all happened since 1945. How/when Slavs were moved on? Who/how many were the residual population after the expulsion of Germans? Militarization of the area? Industry? There is still much to write without delving down the centuries, in the direct relevance to the title. mikka (t) 00:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I hope you will find something interesting; you know Russian and Polish so proably it might be easier for you to seek for sources; as I know just Lithuanian and English. If I'll find out something of interest, I would add. And yes, this is an interesting issue - Wikipedia is a collaborative project so maybe once some Kaliningradian interested in the history of area will come and put more information also. DeirYassin 16:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Lithuania Minor?
By this point Lithuanians made up the majority of the population in more than half of what is currently Kaliningrad Oblast (eastern part) and significant minorities elsewhere.


 * By which point? The closest date in the text is 1773. How it came to pass that Lithuanians settled the German territories in the 18th century? If they constituted a majority as the article claims, where are the sources for such allegations? When I posted official statistics from East Prussia, they were deleted as unrepresentative. Which statistics are representative? Only the Lithuanian ones?

As a result this area was called Lithuania Minor but it was not part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.


 * Who called it Lithuania Minor? The term has been virtually unknown in major languages of Europe and international parlance. The propriety of using it in the international encyclopedia is disputed, as a google search found the term is confined to the Lt. websites. Perhaps it is good for the Lithuanian Wiki, but hardly so for the English one.

The four counties where Lithuanian was spoken were referred to collectively as the Lithuanian province.


 * Once again, referred to by whom? By Lithuanian nationalists? The article clearly downplays the German history of the region in favour of the Lithuanian minorities.

According to some documents the Soviet government had planned to make the rest of the area a part of the Lithuanian SSR too.


 * Please provide these documents. Allegations of Lithuanian State TV is not a document, you know. --Ghirlandajo 05:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * As for the time when Lithuanians made the mentioned majority, it was around 17th century, then the numbers decreased. Your statistics were from much later times, and it is true that by those times there were much less Lithuanian-speakers and in much smaller areas they made a majority. Lithuanians did not settled there in 18th century, they were living there way before that (in northeastern part of East Prussia (eastern part of modern Kaliningrad Oblast); some of those territories were controlled by Lithuanian Grand Duchy during the rule of it's first king Mindaugas, later overtaken by Teutonic order and since then a part of German states/lands). As for information about national representation of the area from the earlier times, there are less documents and therefore there would be speculation, so e.g. it is hard to say what the population representation was in say 8th century. It is however a fact that Germans (as Teutonic knights) settled these areas, which previously were inhabitted by Prussians, Curonians, Lithuanians, Skalvians, Nadruvians and other early Baltic nations, not vice versa. Sources are such facts as the Lithuanian language being used in churches at the time in the said area and such.
 * Lithuania Minor was called this way by both Germans (Kleinlitauen) who probably were also the ones who coined the name, and local Lithuanians (Lietuvininks) (Lithuanian - Mažoji Lietuva). The term Lithuania Minor, sometimes in English also used as Little Lithuania, is translation of both original German and Lithuanian names.
 * I agree that the proportion of information about German and Lithuanian histories is not correct here. But the point of Wikipedia is that it can always be edited and improved. Deleting information is not improving; therefore it is wrong to delete some part just to get to the "correct" proportions of information about Germans and Lithuanians in the area. Instead, I hope someone will come and write more information about Germans, the culture of Germans from the Kaliningrad Oblast, also information about post-WW2 Kaliningrad Oblast, which was missed for by Mikkalai. This Wikipedia article is not complete of course.
 * As for the information about the Soviet government's planned cede of the area to Lithuanian SSR, I don't remember the documents now unfortunately, I forgot as I was interested in this and checked that a few years ago - too bad internet is still too small in the areas of former Soviet Union to find everything online. It is however logical that the area would have been added to Lithuanian SSR due to it's geographic proximity and such too; if you object this due to the fact that it seems like saying that the area is Lithuanian, it will disappear with time as more and more is written about the post-WW2 time, colonisation of the area and such; this will remain just one sentence in the middle of many. Also, it says "according to some documents" which is not the same as "it was". If you really insist, it can be removed, still however it is true that according to some documents it is as claimed here.
 * And I am getting back the removed information, as it was not really about the partition (which would be irrelevant to go about on in great details), but rather about the territory of Kaliningrad Oblast, the fact, that Lithuanian books were printed here and smuggled to "main Lithuania". The ban of Lithuanian press is only briefly mentioned (and it won't be explained in great details in this article), as otherwise it would be unclear why this book smuggling happened. DeirYassin 11:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * "Lietuvos rytas" is a newspaper, and "Lietuvos Rytas TV" is a publicistic TV show of the newspaper (like "Spiegel TV" in Germany). This program is broadcasted by TV3 television, which is owned by Swedish media holding, so it is not "State TV".

Unpleasant things to remember and SSSR heritage
Well, of course it is easy to say that some information is "nationalistic" POV and state "go dig for documents" just for a sake to delete some not very pleasant information for "Kaliningrad" now "native" russians. Altough, vandalism, destruction ( a few axamples - Koningsberg Cathedral, which was left destroyed for may decades, blown out allmost full Ragnit (lith. Ragaine, now Neman) castle by filming a movie, burned down library of Koningsberg University with all the books, manscripts and invaluable collections. And there are left not even a few undestroyed german "fascist" graves or churches in Kaliningrad oblast). It might be explained by migration of people with doubtfull past to the region. Also from Lithuania - it was a good place to hide (from deportation and mgb). Just for remark - Klaipėda was part of Lithuanian republic 1923-1939, until ir was annexed by Germany. Altough it newer has been part of Kaliningrad oblast.

And about an incorporation into LSSR - there are many documents in LKP archives, just i cannot find a way to show them over internet. These were secret talks. Another poroven fact is that altough Kaliningrad oblast had it's own party politbureau, all economics in the region for years was ruled from Lithuanian planing comitee.

Just a question - is a feeling of being insulted by the past enough to revert edit ? --Lokyz 09:00, 2005 September 3 (UTC)
 * I agree with the above comment DeirYassin 10:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Lokyz, please don't take this personal. Information about things you are speaking was suppressed for a long time and began to surface only recently. So there is no reason to be offended by requests for confirmation. It is a normal practice everywhere. I have no reasons to beleive your words. Wikipedia editors by wikipedia's policies have no credentials, unlike, say, academic professors in paper journals.
 * About LKP archives: you may quote and refer to the printed sources. Who told you that only www links is the only allowed proof? I'd rather say opposite: various websites are more suspicious to me. mikka (t) 18:55, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * About talks to attach Kaliningrad oblast to LSSR it was written in "Nikžentaitis A., Nepavykęs bandymas prijungti Kaliningrado sritį prie Lietuvos XXa 6 dešimtmetyje // Acta Historica Universitatis Klaipedensis VIII t., Klaipėda, 2001, p.170-181". All this tome is dedicated for historical problems of Kaliningrad and Klaipėda history XVI-XX century. Nikžentaitis is reputable ph.d. in history.
 * Just a notice - it was not by the rule of Stalin, but by Chruschev. I'll read this article and will reformulate the statement correctly.
 * --Lokyz 12:30, 2005 September 5 (UTC)


 * Ah, another unpleasant thing for Russia: SSSR reused "freed" KZ'ts to hold and later destroy germans and also native minor lithuanians.
 * --Lokyz 22:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * doesn't anyone think, that people who arranged KZ'ts use further for at least a year after II Wwar ended also desrve to be called war ciminals ?
 * --Lokyz 03:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well this should be fair encyclopaedia, not reverting by anyone because of he believes differently. Take a look at this revert (diff) (hist) . . m Kaliningrad Oblast; 04:41 . . Ezhiki (Talk) (Reverted edits by Lokyz (talk) to last version by Ezhiki). Well no explanations, no reason.

If someone interested i could give many sources t0 my statement - one of them is by governer of kaliningrad oblas - wtitten in a newspaper :)  --Lokyz 03:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Bibles

 * These uprisings ultimately failed, resulting in the eventual destruction of the original Prussian culture, as the nation became thoroughly germanised. The Prussian language is known to have survived into the late medieval and renaissance periods as many of the Bibles from these periods were written in the Prussian language for those that did not speak German


 * Is the late medieval true? Usually the fires would be lit under Catholics who did this. Eg Wyclif's Bible
 * Was the language sill popular enought in the renaissance period to have its own Bible and why did the German speaking authorites allow it? Philip Baird Shearer 20:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, the information was incorrect; now I corrected it. As far as I know, it was after the reformation, when translating the Bibles was permitted; there weren't "many" Bibles but some. Kaiser 747 09:40, 12 October 2005 (UTC)