Talk:Kamma (caste)/Archive 1

Hello all
A new InfoBox has been added to this page Template:Caste Groups of India (Kamma).This is a modified version of Template:Ethnic group which is used by Nair and Jats.This template can be used for India specific as it has Surname section.If it needs any addition or modification please feel free to leave me a message and I wish the current template will not be tampered.

Fort5000 (talk) 17:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Abuse
It is proper to Log into Wiki and engage in meaningful discussion. Instead of logical discussion the gentleman uses abusive language. One can well imagine the veracity of such person's statements. hi kapaya nayaka belongs to velmas,not kamma.there r proofs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.198.115 (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Right info
kamma warrior appointed to bear the royal mace in Vijayanagar court. He won the trust of the king. He was sent to Madhura to bail out Pandya king. Viswanatha nayak later ruled with great distinction. The old info was deleted. Pemmasani Kamma nayaks ruled Gandikota but not Penukonda. Pemmasani nayaks were mentioned in many old Telugu texts of Vijayanagar times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.165.151.178 (talk) 07:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

Citation requested
1. In identity para I hav found Kota kings(1130-1251 CE) of Kamma clan. In history Kota was ruled by Brahmins, Rajus, Balijas n mite b Kammas also during different periods. Please provide citation for above claim. As its somwat controversial, Historians say Kota kings of 11th n 12th century were Kshatriyas of dhananjaya gothra. Even som Kamma historians say they were Dhananjayas. Its said Kaktiya Ganapati Deva after marrying his daughter Ganapamba with Kota Betaraja n his another daughter with Eastern chalukyan prince of Nidadavolu, Kakatiyas started claiming Kshatriyas as ther two in-laws were kshatriyas.

2. In Kurmi origin para, Ikshvaku King Madhariputra Purushadatta is mentioned, which Ikshavaku Koshala r Andhra. I think its Andhra. Req to correct it to Andhra Ikshavaku if Im correct.

3. In Buddist n Kurmi origin para it mentions Kammarastram/Kammarattam, as per Andhra history By Durga Prasad, inscriptions  mentioned as Karmarastram/Karmarattam (Buddhist word). I agree that in Kakatiya period inscriptions mentioned Kammanadu. But Can someone clarify wat was mentioned in inscriptions of Ikshavaku n Chalukya period whether Karmarastram r Kammarastram. Indianprithvi (talk) 13:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Clarification
'''You have not posted a sigle clarification about the Disputed sections... like Pemmasani etc... Penukonda Charitra mentions about Pemmasinga Nayudu... and they say he is a Balija... they donot mention about Pemmasani'''

'''I have not seen a single author mention Madurai Nayaks were Kamma Velama and Raju... I guess its a very weak argument that you are putting forward''' '''Yes these were only samples Please also refer to JSTOR and Cambridge Univedrsity Publications for more Detailed information... This is a respectable and well renonwned Univeristy in the world and nobody can bluff and create or Steal History these Publishers''' unsubstantiated statementDude this has been picked up from Rayavachakamu... Maybe you should go and read...'''Any idea who wrote this ??? Make a guess''' like unsubstantiated statement ''' "Edgar Thurstons all publicatoins are not available on the web.Wake up Dude" So you are saying your claims are genuine ??? '''And dude what about your fluffy stuff written in this article ??? Are you qualified enough to call Suvarnam Pratapa Reddy false???''' ''' I Object to this theory that Kota Kings were Kammas they were Kshatriyas of Dhananjaya gothra. Kshatriyas (Uppalapati and Sagi) belong to this clan. Uppalapti Krishnam Raju is said to be successor of Kota dynasity. Please verify this and correct it.''' '''Do kyou even have any idea how many kota Dynasities have been there.. The Kota Dynasity shows up in History even before there is a mention of Kamma Caste in History it existed way before even Kamma caste originated Dude''' I donot wish to contest this claim '''If the book is avilable on the net then does that make it genuine??? Any Tom Dock and Haary can write an article and post it on th\e web.. Please dont come up with ridiculous arguments. I guess your knowledge is soley based on what is avilable on the net...''' By the way Eddula Nandi Rddy was the Collector of Anantapur prtty knowledgeable person should have had better knowledge and better access to resources than you...
 * If surname is an indicator, Nayaks of Madhura could be Kaapus, Kammas, Velamas and Rajus.
 * The books referred to did not contain explicit information. One was a book review carrying an unsubstantiated statement. The other book mentions that the kings were "allies" of Balija farmers in Madhura region". It did not mention that the Nayaks belonged to Balija community. It is well-known that farmers of many communities migrated to Tamil region and acquired lands. It was but natural that the kings felt affinity to fellow Telugu-speaking farmers.
 * '''I guees you choose to ignore facts at your convininec not my problem you are making ka fool of yourself and people who chose to believe you... by using lwords
 * If anyone is aware of Madura temple inscription it may be mentioned with propoer citation.
 * Page number of Edgar Thurston's statement in his book may be provided. The book is available on the web.
 * Caste associations can make any kind of false claims such as the claim of some Kammas as descendents of Kakatiyas.
 * There was no community by the name "Reddy" during Kakatiya reign. Reddy was a title given to many communities, especially Panta Kapus. Suravaram Pratapa Reddy's statements were wrong.
 * Kota kings were Kammas as the Kamma clan of "Kota Kammas" with surnames Kota and Sagineni testify.
 * Gampa Kammas and Gandikota Kammas were of the same branch. People who migrated to Guntur/Ongole region are called "Gampa Kammas". People who migrated to Tamil region are called "Gandikota Kammas".
 * Is Eddula Nandi Reddy an authentic historian?Is the book available on the web?

Also Balija Kula Charitra preserved in Chennai library and British Museum would open you eyes about these issues if you do wanna know or learn the truth... Dont question the Authenticity of this Article oresel the British Museum or Chennai Museum wouldnt even bother to preserve it...

'''And by the way all of the references that have been provided above have been nuetral and have varied from Administrators to Scolars to Historians of Indian and Foreign origin... So i cannot help you any more if you choose to claim someone elses history as yours .. and misguide your fellow community and others about History'''

The person (67.169.19.153) who raised the questions may please provide his identity.
 * You know my IP and you know my questions... Does it really matter if you know my name..:-)

'''Everyone knows that Chalukyas were Kshatriyas they were never shudras. So please remove Chalukyas from Ancestry link, as Chalukyas never merged with Kammas. Chalukyas doesnot have anything to do with Kammas they are Suryavanshi kshatriyas. Rajus are successors of Chalukyas(Kshatriyas)."

Another reason for groupism came from the profession followed by the differnt groups. As people changed professions, they also had to change names to reflect those professions. However they needed to differentiate themselves from people who were already using those professional names.

Madurai & tanjavur Nayaks are Balijas/Kota Dynasity
==

''Pemmasani Viswanatha Nayudu proved his loyalty to Vitthala velama by defeating his own father, Nagama Nayudu, who declared independence at Madurai, and later established the Nayak dynasty. The Pemmasani Kamma clan still has a Zamindari near Madurai called Neikarapatti. (See Nayaks of Madhura).

Its clearly mentioned in Penukonda Charitra that Viswantha Nayakas Surname was Garikepati...and was a Balija ---Eddula Nandi Reddy...As did Edgar Thirston... ry And please search the Net on JSTOR etc Articles from Cambridge etc which are very clear about who were the rulers of Madurai,Tanjavore and Viajayanagar(Araveeti) ,,,, And if you want more please take a look at the inscriptions of Tirumla Nayaka in the Madurai Temple...

'''And recently the Madurai Balija Association celebrated the Birthday of Tirumala Naicker what happened to this so called Descendants Pemmasani Clan??? they did not seem to feature anywhere...'''

What is this Pemmasani Surname that has cropped up...??? You dont seem to post any kind of references nor Clear proof of wrong information posted on the articles...I suggest the admins to Make sure this article is cleaned UP...'''

And there is clear dipute on Musunuri nayaks as well... Surnam Pratapa Reddy calls him a Reddy/Kapu and there was never any documented evidence of them, being kamma..

So is the senction on Kota Kings and the Kota Koings mentioned here are either Bramhins or should have been the Parichedi Dynaisty or should have been the Telugu Cholas...

And your Gampa Kamma and Gandi Kota Kammas is even more questionable one seems to come from the other... Please clean up your article and post authentic information...

Vandalism
Rampant vandalism is happening. Someone should keep a watch and protect the stuff

Intercaste Marriages
What is the percentage of inter-caste and inter-religious marriages in the Kamma? If it is less than 10%, aren't they anti-social?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maaparty (talk • contribs) 13:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

When has keeping ones identity become anti-social behaviour. Such comments are unwelcome and unsavoury bigoted. Brothers in Arms 18:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Appeal
There are many Peda Kamma surnames and Zamindaris. It is not appropriate to name all of them. Enthusistic readers are appealed not to include more such names.

Important
This article appears to be nothing more than a fluff piece on a specific caste, with very little verifiable research.If this article isn't fixed, I may suggest it as an Article for Deletion.

Reply
The original article was edited to the present form after painstaking research. Suitable references were provided. Ambiguous points were clearly mentioned as debatable points. Suggestions (as that given below) based on envy and prejudice should not be taken seriously. The previous vandalism shows the magnitude of envy towards Kamma caste.

Note
Addition of "noteworthy" Kammas is a carryover from an AfD, and is laden with POV.

Reply
It is not a carryover. All the names mentioned belong to nationally well-known Kammas.

Kammas and Kambojas
As mentioned earlier, this section does have some logical points. I shall edit it to make it crisp. Any comments from the author?

Zamindaris
Only well-known Zamindaris are retained.

Heterozygosity/Kambojas
I agree to certain extent with the person who put the material on Heterozygosity/ and similarities with Kambhojas. Although the Kambhoja account was logical it needs historical evidence. Heterozygosity conclusion was not scientific. The publication in J. Biosci., is of questionable value. As per the discussion (see below), molecular genetic profiling will give right answers.

Statistical and anthropological analysis
Conclusions drawn by statistical and anthropological methods are less reliable. Molecular analysis such as genetic profiling of males by using Y-chromosome specific probes and females by mitochondrial DNA specific probes would give clear picture. So far, no one has done this kind of study on Telugu-speaking social groups. Clustering of Brahmins with Agharia tribe and Kammas with Chenchu tribe is a ridiculous conclusion which points towards faulty methodology. The material was accordingly deleted.

Origins
There have been many theories of origin woven around the meanings of the word "Kamma" such as ear ring, letter, river Gundlakamma, place Kammamettu (present day Khammam) etc. These theories lack historical thread of logic. Hence, the input regarding "ear ring" theory was deleted.

Improvisation
'''The section is being extensively edited. Suggestions are welcome--Polumetla'''

The section is being modified and improvised. Suggestions are welcome.--Polumetla

Unless some significant additions are necessary, minor changes may please be avoided.

Appeal to Historians and Geneticists
It seems possible that there is a link between ancient Aryan tribes of Pahlavas/Kambhojas who might have ruled the ancient Palnadu/Kammanadu region of present day Guntur and Prakasam districts and Kamma community. Physical and phenotypic traits do point towards some vague relationship. However, DNA fingerprinting of Kammas and some well-known Kambhoja communities of Punjab, Iran, Rajasthan etc will resolve the issue. Historians also should scientifically look into this matter.

Vandalism
There seems to be no end to hate-driven vandalism. Mafia wars were painted as caste conflicts and blame put on a particular caste. Ranga is a classical example of how a street rowdy got respectability through politics. The episode of destruction of Kamma property was a shameful incident in post-independent India, which also reflects the mindset of a group of people driven by jealousy and who are clamouring for power in the name of caste. I hope this kind of hate-edits are not placed in Wiiki aricles. I appeal to one and all to keep a watch and protect from vandalism.

So is Paritala Ravindra or Devineni Nehru as a matter of fact. Mullu ni mullu to ne teeyali antaru... one was a land grabbing factionist the other was a street rowdy and money thursty goon.Do you know how much lang Mr devineni Nehru occupied in the Kolleru Lake???

Reply
Do not lose your cool. Wiki is not the place for foul & abusive language. If you disagree that Ranga was not a goonda and extortionist who used to forcibly collect money from local traders, you may say so. But do not abuse others.

Agree maybe you should check your language as well.I only responded to your posts... You stay away i too would stay away from making remarks on individuals..

Also agree that destuction of Kamma property was a shameful incident in post independent indias history... It is also a shameful incident that a Sitting MLA who was an Hunger strike was Assasinated or Murdered... well planned and coordianted by the govenrment by transferriing 110 Police officers... I dont how to classify these kind of politics...

Reply
If you see the past events, you would understand that the problem in Vijayawada started with a street goonda engaging in extortion from local traders and businessmen. Whatever happened later was a reaction to that. Similarly, the origin of the problem in Anantapur was the feudal hold of a community over poor people which was resented by Sriramulu joining Naxalites. Ravi continued to oppose the oppression by joining a political party.

________________________________________________________

There is rampant vandalism of this article. Thanks to Shanes a terrible vandalism was reverted. Everyone should protect the article with care.

This topic is being subjected to intense vandalism. Even after repeated restorations the vandalism continues. Can the administrator lock the topic for a limited period of time.

This article has lot of Vandalisma and Hate edits. Needs to be cleaned. 203.199.48.200 is one of the offender. NPOV is to be checked --Vyzasatya 23:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * All the posts made by 203.199.48.200 needs to be reverted as they are highly offensive (ex. kojja means eunuch in telugu) and the page need to be protected. --Vyzasatya 23:44, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Worth it? &mdash; Il&gamma;&alpha;&eta;&epsilon;&rho;   (T&alpha;l&kappa;) '' 13:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC) I'd say the vandalism is sporadic and somewhat managable. If vandalised again a 30 day protection wouldn't do bad. feydey 15:19, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Who the hell is doin all this, and who is this vyzasatya(son of a bitch!!!!) who is the bastard who removed the main article. What is goin on here??? Nannapaneni M Chowdhary

Caste status
First of all this article about kammas seems to hide lots of facts...first and foremost being that kammas are SHUDRAS and not anything else as being picturised by that community. Same case withh reddys. Not that shudras are any less compared to anyone but I think kammas dont know much about themselves...they better research before claiming anything.....and be proud of what u are. dont try to impersonate.

@@Cool Guy,seems to be ur Balija/Kapu and do u know onething u have discovered that Kamma/Reddy are Sudras Wow.Then What About Kakatiyas,Musunuru Nayakars,Telugu Cholas/Chodas of Kammas and Reddy Kings of Rajamandry these are looking like Sudras for U what a shame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterHeins (talk • contribs) 12:38, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by aristocratic? Neither they ruled any part of the country except for one family vasireddy family who were zamindars in Guntur/krishna, nor they belong to kshatriya division. Please do not make POV changes without proper refernces. --Vyzasatya 19:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

This user Vyzasatya seems hell bent on proving his/her so called facts. I think I should nominate him or her for NOBEL prize ( which area physics/ chemistry will decide later ) for discovering this earth shattering fact that Reddies/Kammas are shudras. This discovery will no doubt willr rank as one of the big discoveries of this century. This one revelation will lift our country to great heights and expose the treacherous and diabolical gameplan of these two castes. He has taken the time, effort/pains to search google and somehow found this page on another caste ( to which he obviously does not belong ) and taken the time to disprove a lot of things. Highly commendable and good work. There is not any trace of jealousy or hatred against any caste in his writing. I have come to know a lot of facts from his posting. I think he should spend the rest of his life similarly exposing other castes which are treacherously masquerading as upper castes. Otherwise our country will siffer and march into despair. His information is very useful in this age where caste is becoming very important, where caste boundaries are strengthening. Noble heart and great thoughts. Long live Vyzasatya.

- Krishna

Someone is deliberately and persistently trying to paint Kammas as Shudras and OBCs. This is irrelevant and immaterial. It is a fact that standard Manu smriti system does not apply to people south of Vindhyas. Kammas are considered OCs but not OBCs/BCs according to government records.

Please do not mix up the terms OBC and Sudras. OBC is a modern day term and is used described the backward castes in a particular state. For eg: Kamma and Reddy are considered as upper castes in Andhra and OBC in Karnataka. It has nothing to do with "Sudra". As far a I know all castes apart from Kshatriya, Vaishya and Brahman were considered as "Sudras". This term has no significance in the modern society. Please do not try to impose ur personal feelings in wikipedia articles..Sumanthk 12:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There was sweeping claim above that Kamma/reddy are OBC in karnataka. Not sure if Kammas and reddy's are OBC in Karnataka. Balijas are definitely listed as OBC. What is important is that Rajputs and many Kshatryiya clans are also listed as OBC in Karnataka. See for yourself. http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/karnataka.htm. I do not know who the person in this post above, who is desperately trying to prove that Kamma and Reddys are OBC or something lower. Whatever it is Raju's / Rajputs seem to be listed officially as OBC atleast in some states. All one needed to become a kshatriya in the ancient days was enough cows and money to Brahmins. Also if Raju's are the original aryan kshatriya's ( being an aryan caste ) we should a lot of fair well built types. Instead I see many dark skinned (sometimes almost black) Rajus. So whoever is claiming Kammas are OBC willing to say that Rajput/Raju as OBC just because they have been listed as OBC in some states( even though they have so much of history )?. I am almost surprised by the amount of hatred that people have about a particular caste and go to great extents to prove somebody else caste as lower or this or that. No wonder the Muslims and then the Britishers found it so easy to rule and plunder this nation. I do not know who is posting these anti Kamma postings, but I do have respect for Brahmins/Kshatriyas/Kapus/reddies/velamas or any other caste. If one were to go back another 1000 years can you even tell who was brahmin, kshatriya etc. Castes were fluid, not hereditary then. - Krishna

One fact, I want to point is that the origin of Kammas itself if shrouded in mystery. So is that of other castes. There is some proof that Reddys are a section of Kapus that eventually became seperate caste. One thing is sure is that Kammas as a caste existed by around 1300 or so. I am a kamma who lived in TN. In TN there are a lot of Kamma Naidus ( of coimbatore and Madurai ) who migrated there during 1500s as part of Vijayanagar Nayaks ( later declared themselves as independent ). If Kammas did not exist as a caste till recently, it is hard to explain their presence in TN. Before 13 to 1400's ofcourse it is hard to guess who they were. One thing is obvious is that no one caste ruled AP in the medieval times for long, and all the castes Reddies, Velamas, Rajus, Kammas, Kapus were dominant at various times at various parts of Andhra. Kingdoms rose and fell and many castes acquired prominence in the mean time. ( By the way, Vijayanagar Kings are mostly of Kuruba caste of Karnataka ). -Krishna

@@ Read Andhrula sanghika Charitra by Suravaram Prathap Reddy. He clearly mentioned of Srinadha kavi sarvabhouma of 13th century AD, mentioning -reddy, kamma and velama as Sath-Shudra castes (purified Shudras). FYI that book is available freely in the internet from Million Book Project.

I agree OBC and shudra are not same. But I dont agree that the term shudra should not be used coz it doesnt have significance in modern society. is that ur personal opinion? Just coz media dominated by the same shudras (kammas, reddys etc) keeps the fact under the carpet doesnt change it. The point is not of "Significance", its about "veracity". wikipedia is about facts and not about significance of anything. so lets stick to facts. fact is kammas are shudras. its irrelevant whether its significant or not. In that indus valley, aryans etc all these are not "significant" today in modern society. that doesnt change the fact.

My opinion is that the current day facts should be mentioned. My point is that the term "sudra" is not widely used in the modern day society. It can be mentioned under "origins/history" of the caste that kammas were sudras. Right now i'm not modifying the article. I will try to gather some data and update the article appropriately. Sumanthk 04:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds appropriate.

According to Thurston Kammas and Velamas had military past.

there is nothing like pure kshatriyas. the aryan if at all they existed and/or invaded from outside they were brahmins. thats the reason they put themselves on the top and initially there were many brahmin kingdoms...infact as far as afghanistan there were brahmin kingdoms. they relegated others to the warrior clan, business clan etc etc..the kings and their tribes who were with the satraps were called kshatriyas...and anyway todays castes are all of mixed ancestry and KAMMAS ARE NOT KSHATRIYAS. they are Shudras. every leading expert on caste in india can tell that very clearly. So why this passing off as "upper castes".

For your info, even Rajulu from Andhra are not pure Kshatriyas. Later, they claimed Kshatriya status. Read Edgar Thurston,s Castes and Tribes of South India, Volume 6.

$$ In currant day situation, they (Kammas) are upper castes.

$$ In current day situation nothing changes. In hinduism caste is rigid. thats the whole problem of hindu society. so u dont change the current situation. Go do a fact check how kammas are reported in national dailies. they are called or "Upper Shudras". nothing changes in current situation. thats a fact in hinduism. thats not my opinion. lets stick to facts and not what we feel.


 * 1) In Hinduism caste is not rigid at all. Shivajis incidence proves that.


 * 1) if you re quoting national dailies, they are sometimes referred to as intermediate castes. And these national dailies also refer to banias in Bihar and Rajputs in Gujarat as shudras too ( because these castes are considered OBC there )

$$ Are you dyslexic or suffering from short attention span? Read what I wrote - Kammas are Upper Castes. What national dairies are writing - they are upper castes. FYI, there is no pure Kshatriya caste exists in Andhra Pradesh.

that was a typo ..its not upper castes but upper shudras. its a media term obviously.. there is no "upper" term used in ancient texts..

$$ All shudras are not OBCs. After the muslim onslaught, there was no one strong ruler from your spineless UPPER CASTE. Shivaji or Krishna Devaraya, take who ever resisted them was an OBC.

Now what muslim resistence did kammas exactly stop. The whole of hyderabad was founded and run by muslims for almost 400 yrs. so what did they stop. anyway i dont have a problem that they founded hyderabad. but how did kammas resist this onslaught?


 * 1) Again, you proved dyslexic. Read again. FYI, Musunuri Prolaya resisted Muslims for 50 years on Telugu land.

$$ and where does this "your spineless UPPER CASTE " come from. Where do I come here from. I never talked my caste or your caste. The discussion is abt kammas. so keep it objective.and if thats what u believe about upper castes why the hell do u claim "kammas as upper castes in current situation?".

$$ Your definition of upper caste is different from mine. If we apply your definition to upper castes, they are spineless. They are highly decorated in ancient era. Reality kicked in with muslim onslaught. As per my definition, castes like Kamma, Reddy, velama, jat, vakkaliga are upper castes.

$$ Well its not my definition. Dwijas are considered upper castes. I havent defined anything here. or to be more clear and precise non dwijas are considered shudras. (dalits were categorized differently from shudras at a later stage)

Lets not forget though u admit kammas are OBCs and claim there is nothing wrong with it, still kammas commit atrocities on dalits in most of andhra. In fact in AP upper castes (brahmins, kshatriyas, vaishyas) are very less in number and mostly powerless. ITs The OBCs (kammas, reddys, kapus) who commit atrocities on dalits. so how are they progressive??

$$ true very true. thats my point. there is no shame in any caste. If kammas believe so then why do they not realise or never admit that they are OBCs, in fact they should be proud of it. It doesnt matter what caste it is, what matters is whether they are admitting the truth or lying. Tell me how and when did they change into upper castes. They didnt. They are socially and economically considered upper castes and hence they dont fall under reserved category but they are OBCs neverthless and mind u there is no shame in that. But there is shame in false claims.

Coz kammas developed under NTR by crushing everyone else they are a developed lot now. Good for them. but that doesnt change their position in hindu caste hierarchy.

$$ Kammas are very prominent in Vijayanagara empire too. Do some research. All kshatriyas were not born kshatriyas. Later, Kshatriya status was given to many communities, for ex - Raju caste in AP.

$$ U are absolutely right. None of the castes today were born as what they were. Most of them changed status. some fell some climbed. Dr.Ambedkar very clearly proved that. In fact that is the reason shivaji had problems during his coronation coz he was denied as marathas werent counted as kshatriyas.

$$ so the point is today there is no such flexibility so kammas dont have invent that flexibility which doesnt exists. As far as Rajus are concerned they have been kshatriyas since that caste existed as Rajus, vermas. At least in the recorded histroy.

$$ Not sure if the above argument makes sense about no caste flexibility. When you say this flexibility does not exist today, on whose authority are you even saying this. Is there some central authority on granting this so called flexibility or are you assuming this authority of granting flexibility. If in the ancient days such caste flexibility existed, then in this modern age (that is today as u refer above) caste should even less rigid. And a caste is determined by its status in society, not based on some whims and fantasies of some jealous net prowler like you. I assume ( the guy who posted the last para ) is not not kamma, and the fact that you have taken pains to visit a kamma section to reveal your insights, shows that your motives are not facts, but attempts to deprecate a caste based on personal feelings. Anyway good luck.

-- My two friends above (Sumanth and ) seem hell bent on proving their point that Kammas are so and so. It seems more than facts they are driven by technicalities and possibly some hate agenda against Kammas and Reddies, may be out of jealousy. I must say these friends while, do seem to know a lot, I must say that, have a lot of ignorance about the caste system in India.

Unfortunately I cannot say that Raju's in Andhra all have Kshatriya origins. I am not sure VijayaNagara Kings are Rajus. There are hardly any Rajus near Hampi. It is considered they were kannad speaking kurubas. The Maharaja of Mysore has Yadav origins, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mysore - even the first wodeyar is called Yadava Raya check this site, ) even though they are technically Rajus. Ask any Raju in Karnataka, they automatically claim mysore maharajas are their kin. And like everything else, this whole dwija thing is all relative. When you guys above say that Dwijas are considered uppercastes, who is the authority here - Brahmins?. Marathas and some other castes though ruled marathwada, brahmins had problems with that. And in the 3rd century when Rajputs overran north INdia, they were crowned as Kshatriyas, even though they were just a central asian tribe. Throughout Indian history, there has been no connection the ground realities and what was written on paper ( by the brahmins ).

The discussion on whether Kammas/Reddys should be seen in this context. When you claim that on paper Kammas/reddies are not dwija, then in the same breadth kammas/reddies can claim that "on paper' system did not reflect reality and actually reflects the biase of brahmins more than anything else. Both are i guess right or both wrong. If kammas and reddies were very poor, oppressed, or barely educated, then there is some point. But they are not. Brahmins atleast in the ancient india, ( thought I loathe to generalise) have been more characterized by grand claims and tracing ancestry from some mythical clans etc. They also have the habit of invoking gods, when attacked ( as when Moslems attacked somnath temple in Gujarath), but with Muslims that has not worked. That is when they had to turn to other castes ( upper or lower or whatever ) to protect the temples.

In case you did not know, a section of Iyengars in Tamilnadu ( Vadagalai ) are actually other upper castes admitted into their fold as brahmins during the reform period of Ramanuja. Can u say that they are not brahmins. Same with some sections of Konkan brahmins, who were middle eaterners brought ashore by ship wrecks. And many so called "upper castes" are labelled as OBCs in some states ( Rajputs, Banias etc ) because that is what they are. -- For ex:

1)When Krishna Raya attacked Kondavidu, his poets described his army's composition like this. Krishna Raya left one lakh soldiers in Vijayanagara under leadership of Govinda Mantri for city's protection. His army consists of 6 senadhipathis. Two Kshatriya (Sri Ranga Raju and Imma Raju), 1 Brahmin (Rayasamu Kondamarusu), 1 Kamma (Pemmasani Lingama Naidu), 1 Padma Nayaka (Velugoti Kumara Thimma Nayaka), 1 Panta Reddy (Gangadhara Reddy). Each senadhipathi, is in charge of 30,000 soldiers, 4 battalions of horses and 200 elephants. Later on Pemmasani Lingama Nayudu was awarded with Gandikota fort. [From the book Andhra Veerulu by Sheshadri Ramana Kavi].

2) Rajavahana Vijayam written during Sadasiva Raya time described like this. (Page - 178 Andhrula sanghika Charitra by suravaram). Raju ku mundu enugulu, venaka gurramulu, rathamulu, venuka kalbalamu nadichenu. Gurrapu sena lo Pathanulu ekkuva vundiri. Kalbalamu lo Boyalu, Ontarulu kaththulu pattukuni nadichiri. Yuvaraju bharya, vumpudu kaththe kooda pallakila lo velliri. Paluvuru veshyalu, karanalu kooda sainyam venta velliri. Ee sainyamu vellinappudu panta chelu nasanam ayinavi ani KAPULU dukhinchiri. Durga palakulagu Kamma varunu, Velama varunu yudhdhamu chesiri. (page -180)

3)Page 184, Panchatantramu lo Venkata nathudu, Rayala sainyamu nu choochi thurakalu itlu anukuniri ani rasadu. Veyyi enugulu, laksha mandi Bondili Rajputs, Laksha mandi pandarulu (may be Ontarulu), laksha mandi thurakalatho kalipi kalbalamu 6 lakshalu rayala sainyam lo vunnayi. Ghanulu ayina Rajulunu, Velamalunu, kamma varunu vunna Rayalani manam (thurakalu) gelava galigithe Khuda (Allah) vunnadani nammochchu.

Some of the aguments provided on this thread reg Kammas are Shudras are based on superiority complex of Brhamin and allied castes. First thing is that this classificaton was based on Karma not based on birth. If you follow that logic non of todays or even in last 1000 years Brahmins qualify to be a Brahmin. Second thing is decision about a caste being Kshatirya or Shurda used to depend on decision of Brahmins. If any caste did obey Brahmins rules, Brahmin lobby stopped their education and declared them Shudras. Castes or group of people who obeyed their orders and or paid them money were declared Kshatirya. Latest example was declaration of Shakas group of people as Rajput Kshatriyas in Mount Abu. During Maurya empire most of Kshatriyas become either Budhist or Jains and business of Brahmins was not good. So when Pushyamitra Sung killed Maharaja Brahdutt and imposed Brahmin rule in India and ordered for mass murder of budhists, all these kshatriyas were declared shudra and Shakas were declared Rajput Kshatriyas.

Other example of making Kshatriya by Brahmins by taking money was declaration of Shivaji a Rajput. But they still call Shivaji's kunbi caste a Shudra.

So all Kamma/Kapu/Reddy people you are pure Kshatriyas. Keep your head high and don't care of these kind of arguments. These people will keep on putting these arguments just to prove their superiority. Otherwise nobody will care about them. If they call you Shudra based of given definitio, they also qualify to be Shudra on same grounds.

Edgar Thurston
This Panel 1 and Kings Andhra kapu guys have been talking shit about all the other castes based on what This British asshole has wrote about the telugu castes. I just wanted you guys to see what he wrote about them. I known that this is a Kamma article but those guys have felt entitled to write whatever they want on all our articles so i just wanted us to have some information to quote back to them.

It is plain curiosity about one's own history. As long it is devoid of prejudice it is OK. A person or a country without a proper perspective of history is doomed. The 'broad-minded' guy who made the remarks (given below) betrayed his inner emotions by trumpeting that his girl friend belongs to a particulr community. One cannot expect right attitude from such persons in real life.

'''why this forigner..help??? what the hell going on here common guys. We should not forget the truth all humans are offshoot of monkeys. First humans are originated from monkeys ,from there stoneage people(AAdhimaanavlu) next evolution of groups these groups evolved as castes based on thier nature of work....so in one way origin of all castes same..kamma did not come from Heaven, or kapu or reddy...all castes have same origin, kammas are not made of gold or kapus or reddys, kammas are bc caste in tamilnadu and naidu too), reddy is only OC caste... asalu manam andaram kothi nunchi vachinavaallame nijam cheppali ante our fore fore fore..fathers are monkeys...so all castes were monkeys once from there these monkeys evolved as humanbeings probably they had not shown any caste feeling like what we are showing....4th 5th 6th class history books are enough to prove what are humans first so before talking about castes ...we should not forget kamma,kapu,reddy,guys were monkyes in first generation....sooo coooool guys relax....life is small ,we all die..all castes people exit is graveyaard kammas ki seperate ga vundadu grave yaard...and so others ki... relax ..have fun....love girls of any caste like me .i have girl friends of all castes...iam enjoying..thats cooool.....enjoy life...nothing to worry...u know iam composing this message with my girl friend anitha( she is kamma)....we never think about castes....we think about caring and loving..we think about helping others.............so guys plz stop hating each other based on castes....dont do that..its foolishness......good luck to all......kamma-kapu-redyy--all others BAI-BAI..we all brothers...JAI HIND..not jai kapunadu or kammanaadu....ok naa.........ok guys bye for now'''


 * 1) $ (This is wrong, Kamma naidus are OC too in TamilNadu, may be other naidus are not. There are hardly any reddies in TN . It is like claiming Reddies are OC in UP or Bihar, because they do not exist there and they are not in any list.

63.97.164.163 is a kapu guy trying to act like he has no caste feelings. This is what thurston acutally said about balijas and he changed it to kammas.

Balijas @@ The surnames or Gothrams of Balijas donot match with the Kammas!!!! They only match with the kapu caste.. So take a Hike Buddy!!!! @@@ The balijas were expelled from the Kapu caste because they took up trading as Profession the Balijas were suppressed.The Kapu's revolted and then the Balijas started marrying with the kapus back again...This was what the authhor was trying to say... This happened in Srikakilam District.. (True for Kamma,Kapu,Reddy,Bramhin,Mala,Madiga,Raju) whats surprising in this???
 * They are the Chief trading caste of Telugus.
 * Their claim to be descendents of The Vijayanagar, Tanjore and Madurai dynasties is not accepted by all since they do not follow Kshatriyas traditions and those kings claimed to belong to the Bharadwaja and Kasyapa gotra.
 * Balijas may be an offshoot of the Kamma casteIWell the author might have been referring to the Kamma Balija which existed long time i guees it merged into the Kammas.
 * According to him the most accurate account of their origins is that they were a recent offshoot of the Reddy or Kapu caste
 * The Balija caste is of mixed origins made up of people who were expelled from their proper caste or were the result of irregular unions.
 * Kapu is a common Telegu word for ryot (farmer)
 * They eat flesh and readily consume alcohol.
 * Balijas are found in all walks of life, from collie, to municipal inspector, butlers, and farmers.
 * The name Balija originates from Bali (a sacrifice) and Ja (born). The myth is that Siva’s wife Parvati made a penance in order to look beautiful for Siva and the person that brought her bangles riding a donkey was the ancestor of the Gajula Balijas.
 * He also states a legend in which the Muslims were chasing away the Kapus and Balijas and when they got to the Pennar river they were too scared to cross it so a Malla helped them out thus saving their community.
 * He states that Telaga is just a northern Circars synonym for Balija and doesn’t’ think they are a separate caste.
 * A particularly offensive statement he makes which he claims is a true fact is that a sub caste of Balijas called Jakkulas and Adapapas either give off their first born girl for prostitution or never marry and become prostitutes for the Zamindar, their resulting sons are called Balijas.

(The sub caste does not exist in the Balijas... Just like Kapu became a Synonym for farmers Balija/Setty became a synonym for Traders.. Setty Balijas in Godavari Districts are Gouds, perike Balijas are Perikes, Setty is found in Vyshayas/Gavaraas who are also trading castes,Konda Kapus are hill tribes,Naidu title is used by Kamma/Boya in rayalaseema/TN,Palle Kapus are a sub caste in Reddy but is also refeered to some Fisherman communities. So the above mentioned might have been some of those sub caste which took over these names... Please dont confuse readers with your half knowledge..)

Proof of Musunuri Nayaks/ Madurai Nayaks/ Telugu Chodas
==

@@ Musunuri kapaya Nayaka's caste was not Kamma, He did not mention it anywhere and Suvarnam Pratapa Reddy (Andhrula Sangika Charitra) mentions that Proloya Nayaka was a Reddy and ofcource Kapaya Nayaka was his cousin brother.Either he was a Reddy or a Kapu Just because Musnuri name exists in Kammas doesnt make him a Kamma.It exists in Bramhins he might have been a Bramhin also... And coming to one more ridiculous argument regarding his uncle with the name Kamma Nayak... Kaapaya Nayaka sounds and means like Kapu so he should be Kapu right...(Kapu is a general word meaning Framer/Protector etc. The word "Kamma" is specific).

Ans - Dont argue blindly based on Kapunadu articles. Kapunadu author got confused Musunuri Prolaya with Koppolu Prolaya Nayak. Read my post below about Pithapuram inscription. The last name, place of birth etc point that he might belong to Kamma community.

@@ May be kapunadu or Kammanadiu author whoever it is got confused but Musunuri Nayaks did not call themseleves Kammas and Surnames donot idenify the Caste its the Gothram which clearly separated them.And Suvarnapratpaa Reddy called him Reddy and Musunuri's married themsleves into Immadi families which are Kapu again... Iam sorry borother they were reddy/Kapu definitey not Kamma. And please stop this crap about Surnames lots of communities share the same Surnames do you know why??? It was because in the Old Days the Names of villages assigned to other community members who worked or were employed by Village Heads..So deciding a caste based on a Village name is ridiculous..

@@ Pemmasani Viswanatha Nayaka -- He also did not mention he was a Kamma and Pemmasani name is found among Velamas also.. '''Not really. Please show proof before claiming...''' Viswanatha Nayaka's Surname was Pemmasinga --- Source Penukonda Charitra

Ans - I dont think Viswanatha Nayaka's last name as Pemmasani. Pemmasani Lingama Naidu, was one of the military chief under Krishna Devraya. Later he was awarded with Gandikota fort. Poets at Raya's court Pemmasani mentioned him as Kamma. In fact, Pemmasani, Vasireddy, Suryadevara, Tripuraneni etc are Peda Kamma last names.

.(Viswanatha Nayudu was the son of Pemmasani Nagama Nayudu, Governor of Madurai, who rebels against Vijayanager king. Viswanatha was sent to suppress the rebellion of his father. Pemmasani was the surname of Madurai Nayaks and Governors of Gandikota. They were all Kammas).

1. There got to be some logic to name onself "Kamma Nayak". 2. Pemmasani clan (Kammas) still controls a small Zamindari of Nayakarpatti (near Madurai). It is only logical to conclude Pemmasani Nayaks of Madurai settled to be Zamindars after losing control of Madurai to British. 3. Any number of historical and modern facts point out towards the Kamma lineage of Musunuri Nayaks. The surname is exclusive to Kammas & Brahmins. If someone wants to assume that Prolaya & Kaapaya were Brahmins, so be it. 5. Prolaya Nayak (Kamma) was unanimoulsly decided to lead all Nayak chefs to rebel against Delhi sultanate because he would be acceptable to feuding Reddy and Velama chiefs (It was this rivalry that led to the fall of Warangal). Velamas could not reconcile even to this, which led to the death of Kaapaya who valiantly fought for the unity and independence of Telugu land. 4.The tendency to deny what is due to someone on the basis of innate hatred and jealousy is unfortunate.

Musunuri Nayaks were Kammas.

1. Surname "Musunuri" exists only in Kamma and Brahmin communities of AP. 2. The name of Prolaya Nayak's uncle (China Naanna) was Kamma Nayak. 3. The inscriptions (Vilasa Tamrapatram) made during Prolaya and Kaapaya's reign did not mention the caste. The ASI evidence, if exists, may be indicated. --Kumar

That Pithapuram incription was isued by KOPPOLU Prolaya Nayak, NOT by MUSUNURI Prolaya Nayak. In fact koppolu Nayak was one of the 75 Nayakas who fought under leadership of MUSUNURI Nayak. How can two last name exist for the same person? They are different persons. After death of Musunuri Nayak, the coalition got disturbed, and Koppolu Nayaka was defeated by Rajamundry Reddy king.

Proofs - Koppolu Prolaya and Musunuri Prolaya are different persons. http://202.41.85.234:8000/gw_44_5/hi-res/hcu_images/G2.pdf Page 167-168 - Clearly mention that Koppolu Nayaka from Pithapuram was one among 75 Nayakas under Musunuri. Page 172 in the book. Kopolu declared independence after death of Musunuri Kapaya Nayaka. Later Reddy king defeated Koppolu Nayak. Kapunadu author got confused and presented both Musunuri and Kopolu as one person and declared Musunuri was from Pithapuram, so Kapu. Kopolu Nayak was a Kapu.

Musunuri Kapaaya Nayaka has an inscription whihc was found in Pithapuram(Godavari Dist) by Archaelogical Survey of India. which mentione his Family Name and his Caste Koppula & Kapu... Please dont claim without proper proof..

$$ That Pithapuram incription was isued by KOPPOLU Prolaya Nayak, NOT by MUSUNURI Prolaya Nayak. In fact koppolu Nayak was one of the 75 Nayakas who fought under leadership of MUSUNURI Nayak. How can two last name exist for the same person? They are different persons. After death of Musunuri Nayak, the coalition got disturbed, and Koppolu Nayaka was defeated by Rajamundry Reddy king.

$$ Proofs - Koppolu Prolaya and Musunuri Prolaya are different persons. http://202.41.85.234:8000/gw_44_5/hi-res/hcu_images/G2.pdf Page 167-168 - Clearly mention that Koppolu Nayaka from Pithapuram was one among 75 Nayakas under Musunuri. Page 172 in the book. Kopolu declared independence after death of Musunuri Kapaya Nayaka. Later Reddy king defeated Koppolu Nayak. Kapunadu author got confused and presented both Musunuri and Kopolu as one person and declared Musunuri was from Pithapuram, so Kapu.

Madurai Nayak..(Tiruamala Nayaka has an Incription in Madurai Meenakshi temple when he made a grant to the temple which mentions his Surname,Caste and other Details... Did you ever bother to check before posting??? Incidentally the Madurai and Tanjavore nayaks are relatives. Do you have any idea about their Surnames????

Ans - I know their surnames, which are very popular Kamma last names.

Telugu Chodas... The Descendant familes are still there with Surnames like Chode/Choda Setty/ChodaPaneni/Konidena and are Kapu by caste.

The Kakateya Kings were bonded labourers they were not Kammas.. The Kammas were appointed as Cheiftains only during the Kakatiya Kings and Gangeya Sahini was prominent..Before that there is no trace of any Kamma Chieftains or Kammanadu...

Ans - Kamma Nadu was mentioned during Ganapathi Deva's (Pratapa Rudra's grand father) regime.

Please donot Post without knowing the actual facts and Distort history ...you are insulting your own Ancestors...

Ans - Please dont post the crap written by Kapunadu author, who claims everyone from Sathavahana to Kakateeyas as Kapu.

Kapunadu is very accurate then this BullShit!!! The research posted on Kapunadu I checked for myself through old history books and old telugu history books. There is no sign of any Kammas in the history. Reddis were an offshoot of Kapus. Reddis were like local officers. Also there was a list of familiy surnames that are decendants of the Vijayanager empire which all turned out to be Kapu. If Kpu waas an offshoot of Kamma, Kapu would not represent the plurality (30%)of Andhra Pradesh. Alot of Kapus still live in Karnataka. They call themselves Balija Naidus.

@@ cool dude u must be pissed of.as u can't find the kapu's as rulers any where.U cant change the truth .Forget the olden days even now can u find any kapu's leading as village heads or dominant persons in any village in andhra. Well u can't find wher ever u go u will find either it is kamma or reddy and in only few  places raju's that's because it is continued from the past and it will go further in future

@@Really I appreciate the Question ask by U as "Can U find Balija/Kapu as a Village Head-Man" The only thing there are coming into discussion is there are using Naidu as title in some areas.Raja Venkatadri Nayudu of Krishna District is Kamma but now if u go there all Kapu are using Naidu as there title name can Raja Venkatri Nayudu becomes Kapu no Bull Shift how can he? if this tiltle is used can they become Musunuru Nayakars.These Musunuru Nayakars are Kammas because you can find many kamma surnames in Musunuru Village in Nellore District(Source) and they proudly say there are descenders of Musunuru Nayakars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterHeins (talk • contribs) 12:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

fact check
factuality of the content in this paragraph need to be verified:

''Kammas began to gain status in Andhra Pradesh early during the second millennium AD. The Kakatiyas (Kaakateeyas) of Warangal (Orugallu) were the most well known of Kamma kings. In the middle ages they either controlled small areas or were in important positions in the armies of kings. After the decline of major kingdoms they still owned large fertile lands. Owing mainly to this they continued to dominate in the villages as small kings, Zameendars and village heads, especially in coastal AP, much akin to the Reddys in the western parts of the state. They also migrated to Tamilnadu and Kamma Nayakas gained prominence in Tanjore and Coimbatore areas.''

$$ Nayakas who ruled Tanjore are not kammas. They are velamas -- They were not velamas either the Valamas picked up rivalry with the Vijayanagar Kings which led to their downfall. No sane Emperor sound enough would have given a rebellious community such a large tract of land!!! $$ kakatiyas are not kammas as far as historical evidence goes. --Vyzasatya 05:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

During one of my visits to India, I read History of Andhras by Dr. Narasimha Rao. I don't recall the exact name, but I remember that he was a lecturer in either A.C. or Hindu college, Gunturu. According to his research, Kakathiyas are predominantly velamas. During the last years of Kakathiya empire, a group called Musunoori Nayakulu ruled the remnannts of Kakathiya dynasty and this group is Kammas from Krishna District.

I lived in Tamil Nadu and met few Nayudus. Tanjavuru Nayakas are considered to be Kammas


 * Thanks for your input --Vyzasatya 14:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

''Some of the information about Kammas in this article is written without any reference and is purely personal. This article about Kammas needs to be cleaned up. Claimes that Kammas are Emperors and had no material references any where in history, Some even went ahead and posted Kammas Ruled the entire India (including todays Pakisthan, Burma, afganisthan, Iran and Even China) for 2000 years. Please don't provide information without material references.

This article is about the good and wellness about Kamma community and its heritage, Please preserve it ''.

'''Comment: Kammas had and have a lot to feel proud of. There is no need to claim "Aristocracy", descent from Kakatiyas (slave clan) etc. The Telugu society knows that. Envy, jealousy, prejudice and hatred against them are things Kammas should take in their stride.'''--

@@Incorrect information posted by 24.175.44.123 about kammas being built the Vellore Fort:

This is the information provided by Archelogical Soceity of India (on the Front door of Fort) and also a consistent informtaion provided and reffered in various books on Vellore and the Govt of Tamil Nadu & Tourist dept of India:

- Vellore Fort

Bommi and Thimma Reddy built this large fort in the 16th century during the reign of the Vijayanagar king Krishnadeva Raja. The fort was captured in the 17th century by the Adi Shahis, the Muslim rulers from Bijapur. It was then taken by the Marathas, and later taken by Daud Khan of Delhi in the early 18th century. The British took control of this fort in 1768 and controlled it until Independence. After the British killed Tipu Sultan they imprisoned Tipu’s son and daughter in this fort.

Jalakanteswara Temple This large, impressive Siva temple was built around 1566 in the Vijayanagar style. This ancient temple is named after Jalakanteswara, or “Lord Siva residing in the water.” The temple has a Nataraja Siva deity on the northern altar, and on the western altar is a Siva-linga. This temple has just recently been reestablished as a place of worship.

The temple is famous for its magnificent sculptures. There is a 30m (100ft) high, seven-storey gopuram made of blue granite, which is flanked by two carved dwarpalas (door guards). The carvings in the kalyan mandapa (pillared hall) are some of the most impressive in India. The outer pillars have sculptures of rearing horses and dragons. The inner pillars have sculptures of yalis, which are lion-like creatures. This temple is located in the Vellore Fort, near the north wall of the fort. Open daily 6 am to 1 pm and 3 to 8 pm.

Thanks for bringingup some facts but you cannot vandalize the pages--Vyzasatya 18:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Quoting text Andhrula sanghika Charitra by Suravaram Prathap Reddy. He clearly mentioned of Srinadha kavi sarvabhouma of 13th century AD, mentioning -reddy, kamma and velama as Sath-Shudra castes (purified Shudras)..... I think I have something which speaks on the contrary.

http://mkatten.tripod.com/bobbili.html for instance gives a description of how velama identity as a caste/community has evolved. Project Gutenberg also contains some material supporting this claim. The claims are backed by historical records in Govt. archives. This is narrated in the context of Bobbili katha, The point to be noted is that if velama identity has not evolved before 17th century, how can srinatha kavi quote that sect in his 13th century text?

Also it would be apt if someone could extend this section and provide references for the evolution of surname. I have read some where that all names that end in ['neni'] are derived from ['sahni'], just as ['reddy'] from ['rathod'] Neni exists in velama and Kapu Castes as well So what do you want us to conclude are these communities related???.

It would be more apt to discuss the name nayaka, naidu, chowdary or choudary in this context. There is some confusion over the clans, for example the nayakas of tanjore are refered to be velama nayakas or padma nayaka velamas in direct contradiction to current article.Tanjavore and Madurai Nayaks were related and the Velamas were Subjugated moved down to Southern Tamil Nadu by Vijayanagar Kings to make sure they doont create any trouble!!! Its would be surprsing any sane emperor would handover a sizeable chunk of his terriotory to a rebellious Clan!!!Some authentic authority needs to verify this fact. Similar suspicions about Musunuri nayakas also exists.

Ans - In those days, Kings ruled like that. They used sama, dana, bheda, danda upayalu, in that order. Akbar ruled most part of India without much trouble by entering into marriage alliances with Rajputs. After defeating Gajapathis, Krishna Raya married one of their daughter and got truce with them.

This raises strong doubts about the origins of individual caste idenities, I understand that wiki doesn't endorse opinions, but just for extending the discussion i would like to say the castes of Andhra in the likeness of nayudu, kamma, velama, telaga etc. share common genealogical origins, often siding with various dynasties and kings in times of war-fare and extending family relations might be the source of these so called distinct caste identities.

The caste identities might have been used by britishers as per their Divide and rule policy too. This is a hypothesis and lacks any factual credibility.

Ans - Velama, as a caste referred in Palanati story, supposedly in 11th century AD. There are countless Velama mentioned during Pratapa Rudra time. Srinadha belong to much later period.

Comments: There were no pure Kshatriya rulers in South India. Indigenous social groups elevated themselves to ruling elite and poets like Srinatha extolled them as "purified" shudras to curry their favours. All the communities such as Reddy,Kamma, Velama, Kapu etc. must have had a common origin but diversified due to social and political factors.

There was a good book called "Andhra Kamma Vari charithra" by koththa Bavaiah choudary (Available in central library in HYD). I could not find copies of this book anywhere else.


 * Can you please provide the scans of the relevant info from the book you mentioned above so that necessary correction to the article can be made. Meanwhile I will try to get it if I can. Wikipedia is all about facts we appreciate your effort --Vyzasatya 19:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It is good to know that this is all about facts. It was quoted this in the article

"Kammas in Andhra Pradesh grown to prominence during the Kakatiya kingdom. In recent times Kammas claimed the Kakatiyas of Warangal to be from Kamma community, but the claim is not verified."


 * Either you verify this and put it in the article or you do not put it in the article. Why you are doing like this. If this is the way you want to do this, then include all the above comments and add a disclaimer that this is not verified. Historically there is no mentioning of caste kamma in any of the older books. Only recently people wrote books about Kammas and all of a sudden, they are Kaktiyas or Kshatriyas :)

$$ Who told that Kamma caste was not mentioned in books of older days. Read Andhrula Sanghika Charitra by Suravaram Prathap Reddy. He clearly mentioned of Srinadha kavi sarvabhouma of 13th century AD, mentioning -reddy, kamma and velama as Sath-Shudra castes (purified Shudras). And Suravaram quoted texts from at least 3 other authors of 13-16th century, who described valour of kammas in Vijayanagara army. Go and read the book, then comment.

FYI that book is available in the internet from Million Book Project.

some idiot gets up tommorow and writes a book on kamma history starting from 1AD or whatever and that becomes a reference dayafter. thats plain nonsense. ## Do you think Suravaram Prathapa Reddy is an idiot. I think you are an idiot.It doesnt make any damn difference what u think of me.

So dont refer to some unknown authorities whose claims are neither true nor verified and start passing them off as facts. ## So who is unknown - Srinadha? Or You.why is it ending with me.i never claimed i am an authority.

$$srinadha is no great historian on history of kambojas to which he related kammas if thats what he did.I am referring to kammas being referred to kambojas. There IS NO PROOF FOR THAT. ITS ONLY SPECULATION.

$$ I agree thats a speculation. What about Kapu, Kampili connection? Kapus claiming Chalakya, sathavahana, Kakateeya, Vijayanagara is pure BS.

i never said anything abt kapus being chalukyas or anything.so may be its BS

$$ So shall we agree you as great historian? FYI, there is no concept of history wring in indian middle ages. We ve to reconsruct history from writings of authors like Srinadha.

Well i think u are off the point. my objection was only to the kamboja connection.

The main article speculates about the possibility of kammas having origniated from the buddhist concept of "kamma(pali)" whatever that means.Being certain this is a not a fact and only an opinion lets look at the logical veracity of the claim.Buddhism evolved as a reaction to Brahmanism(hinduism was so called) which was based on caste system by rejecting the whole concept of caste.So its nothing but impossible that a caste might have buddhist origins.I would recommend the author to verify this claim and remove it since it would only defame the community for false claims. hai

Questionable Kurmi Origin of Kammas
The kurmi origins of kammas seems suspect. This section should probably be removed from Kamma origin. The section talks about historians claiming a connection between Kammas and Kurmis. The only historian who even mentioned this possibility is Historian Avadh Bihari Lal Avasthi that too speculation. Like many of his other speculations. For e.g The book by Awasthi talks about koimb-tore to denote Coimbatore, but Coimbatore is actually a tamil name called Kovan Pudur which got corrupted to Coimbatore by the British. His claims refer back to a period aruond 100 BC, which is utterly ridiculous, when even Rajputs did not exist as a caste, and even the Brahmin caste was slowlyt forming its identity.

I suspect if Kammas existed as a caste before 700-800 AD. if they originated from Kurmis, atleast the caste Kurmi should be mentioned in ancient Andhra books.

REPLY Agreed. The theory was propounded by well-known historians. It is not conclusive. There is no harm in knowing different theories.

POV
Bcoz this article is being authored purely telugu people..i c a lot of POV in favour of Kamma's in terms of contribution. i ask u people to change the 'tone' of some areas where they make references to how Kamma Contributed to A.P. Brothers in Arms 17:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not POV, It's purely facts. Ask anyone else from Andhra that is not a Kamma to be unbiased and talk about our contributions.--Milki 21:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop adding POV tag, unless you can support your baseless arguments.--Milki 16:53, 22 October 2006

It is debatable if any of the Kammas were forced to hand over their land, because of land reforms.

Please improve article on TELUGU
If some of you guys had spent even a fraction of the time you have spent fighting amongst yourselves (or putting hate edits in this article) on improving the article on Telugu Language, we will have a much more respectable article about our mother tongue. It is presently in a pitiable state (compare Telugu & Kannada or Telugu & Tamil articles to understand what I mean). It is really a pity that the article on 'Italian of the East', and the most widely spoken Dravidian language has been neglected like this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.97.37 (talk) 10:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

NPoV & clean-up
I've placed these two tags on the article. The former relates to quite a lot of the language (and attitudes expressed); for example, talk about brave warriors and valiant fighters. The latter is because the article is in many places out of keeping with the MoS, and badly needs copy-editing for its English. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 20:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
The correct spelling is "Vijayanagar" not "Vijajanagar". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.165.151.178 (talk • contribs) 07:50, 9 February 2007


 * 1) Please sign your messages at Talk pages with four tildes ( ~ ).
 * 2) New sections go at the bottom of the page; if you create them at the top, they're likely not to be noticed.
 * 3) Edits can only be accepted if they're explained and given a source. You can explain by filling in the edit summary box (which you should always do), and if necessary posting on the talk page.  See WP:CITE for details of giving sources.
 * 4) There are often disputes about transliterations, as different methods are popular at different times and with different people; that's why a source is so important. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 11:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The OP is right. It's Vijayanagar (Vijayanagaram being the original spelling)

http://www.google.com/search?q=Vijajnagar&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=CyX&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Vijayanagar&spell=1

--Milki 03:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Dear Mel Etitis,

Thank you for protecting the article. I have made a few changes which improve the article. These are: These changes were made to improve the article but not to vandalize. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumarrao (talk • contribs) 10:30, 4 March 2007
 * Duplication of the matter regarding Karnataka in the introductory paragraph was deleted.
 * The statement about Viswanatha Nayak was false as evidenced by historical sources. This was deleted.
 * The statement about Vasireddy clan had nothing to do with Vijayanagar times. So it was separated.
 * The section 'Recent history' was edited to make it more crisp.
 * A few changes such as addition of 'Rao' as title were made.


 * I've only just found this message; new messages go at the bottom of the page, and always remember to sign with four tildes ( ~ ).
 * When editing an article, you need to explain what you're doing with an edit summary (at least), and give sources, either in the article or at the Talk page (see WP:CITE). --Mel Etitis ( Talk ) 10:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletions
Panel 1 is making deletions without any logic. Link to Ravella Nayaks was deleted without giving any reason. He better confine himself to Kapu (caste) article which is his only contribution to wiki.Kumarrao 06:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent Changes
1. First paragraph (introduction) indicates that Kamma population exists in Karnataka. The third sentence repeats this fact. So, it was deleted.

2. 'history' was edited as 'History'

3. Origin of caste: A presumption about the common origin of Kamma, Telaga, Velama, Kapu castes was deleted because it lacks proof.

4. A negative statement about prevailing social strife between two communities was deleted.

5. Kammas & Kakatiyas: The word 'Martyrs' was replced by 'perished'.

6. Kammas & Vijayanagar empire: The statement about Viswanatha Nayudu was false. Historical evidence shows that he belonged to Balija community (http://www.archive.org/details/FurtherSourcesOfVijayanagaraHistory).

7. The description of Vasireddy clan did not fit well into the section on Kammas & Vijayanagar empire. A separate sub-head was created for that.

8. Modern history: The material was only rearranged to make it more readable and concerted. Nothing was deleted.

9. Surnames: 'Rao', a common title was added.

10.Sub-divisions: The categories 4 and 5 appeared similar. Clear distinction was made by adding the exact places where Gandikota kammas migrated.

11. 'Panel 1' deleted the link Ravella Nayaks without giving reason. It was restored.

12. Since Nayaks of Madurai and Tirumalai Nayak did not belong to Kamma caste (See Point #6), the link and relevant sentence were deleted.

13. References were given in the text wherever needed. Kumarrao 08:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Editing
Altruism included surnames in Pedakamma subdivision which is not needed. A few names were given earlier only as examples. Kumarrao 09:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a few observations
It is stated that Kamma's are Warriors. Was Kshatriya intended ? There are few statements pointing the origins of the Kamma caste to the Krishna river (does it imply connection to Dravidian culture ?) at the same there are mentions that it might've descended from Aryans. Is there a consensus on the clear cut origins ? One more thing, there is a lot speculation in the article. Anyone want to work with me in making the article more solid ? --Vishnuchakra 00:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
1. It was not intended to claim that Kammas are Kshatriyas. They were warriors and army commanders in medieval times. Exact Varna (caste) affiliation is controversial and so it was avoided.

2. Nowhere the origin was linked to Krishna river. The only possible links are to a geographical entity Kammanadu, the inscriptional evidence of which is available from 3rd century CE. The name Kammanadu originated from Buddhist Karmarashtram/Kammakaratham. The other link is to Kambhoja Pahlavas who established themselves in Krishna valley after Satavahana power declined.

3. Please point out the specuations. These can be discussed.Polumetla 17:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
There has been vandalism by 125.16.7.62, 71.183.123.36 and 155.35.46.11. Slander, abuse and hatred cannot change facts. Wiki guidelines demand discussion on Talk page. Administrators are appealed to block the users mentioned.Kumarrao 05:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Editing
Addition of names either in Zamindari section or Sub-divisions may be restrained. Please discuss if any addition is deemed absolutely essential.Kumarrao 17:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Editing
Editing is going on. Please do not make any changes. Kumarrao 13:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

New info
New inputs are being added. Editing process is on. Kumarrao 16:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Karmarashtra/Kammanadu
Please dont delete Posts!!!!! Are you the moderator Here ???

Please stop falsifying History there was nothing called Kammanadu ever.It was only twisted to Modern Historians... The name of the region that the inscriptions referred to was Karmarashtram not kammanadu... This is what is found in the Telugu Choda Inscriptions and this name Karmarashtram was derived because of the prevelance of Buddhism during this period in this Region.. Kamma is a Hindu Caste Name...Maybe the Ancestors of the Current Kammas were Buddists and Immigrants and the Kamma caste name might have been derived because of settling in this region. But the region was not named after the Kamma caste. So please stop falsyfying History... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.38.199 (talk)

FYI I'm no moderator. I deleted the post because it was unsigned and more importantly, without a topic. Always sign your posts with 4 tildes (~) and include the topic's name. -- Altruism To talk  08:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear 67.180.38.199,

Please give your inputs at the bottom of the talk page. I appreciate your comments. The article contains exactly the same reasoning you provided. It was nowhere mentioned that the region Kammanadu got its name from a caste. Please read Kammanadu article for more information. If you think any particular point was falsified please mention that and give a reason for saying so. Thanks. Kumarrao 07:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A link
Plz. see An article on Kamma history -- Altruism To talk  11:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Durjayas, Chodas, Chalukyas and Haihayas
Historians surmised that by the end of 10th century Durjayas, Chodas, Chalukyas and Haihayas of Kammanadu merged into Kammas

So According to this statement all the Principal Combatants of the Palnadu war beloging to the Raju,Velama,Telaga/Kapu and Panta Kapu/Reddy communities disowned their respective communities for whatever reason and formed a new community called Kamma or merged into Kamma's. First of all there was nothing called Kammanadu it was Palnadu...

Is that what this statement means. Do you guys know what you are writing here you are essentially re writing Andhra History. Kumarrao my dear friend are you still around i thought you were reasonable when you post... Did you write this ???

If not him can anybody please substantiate and tell me what are you trying to say here....This is really getting out of hand

Kammasangam people are telling that it was written in "Durvasapuranam Pratapa Rudrudu belongs to kammacaste, Aluri Pothinayakudu Srikakulam inscription he told that he belongs Durjaya clan and a Chaturdakula person"  Is it true????????????????????????

Rajus are descendents of Chalukyas (Eastern and Western). How can you say they merged into Kammas. Request Editor to rectify this mistake. Please refer to historical books before entering such baseless texts.

Madurai Nayaks are Balija
More sources.Please stop your false propaganda Viswantha Nayaka was a Balija and surname was Garikpati from the Balija Community.. Vijaynagar History  I have quote so many sources but somehow u still want to claim that Madurai Nayaks are Kammas!!!!!!!' — Preceding unsigned comment added by an unspecified IP address''   (talk)

KAMMA DORA & VELAMA DORA
KAMMA & VELAMA communities are Dravidian Farward castes from the beginning like Reddy, Vakkaliga, Lingayat, Nair, Vellar, Nadar, etc. Earlier they were lived in North India. After the Aryans invasion they came to Andhra Pradesh and settled here. The People lived in Kammaland are called as kammas and the people lived in Velanadu are called as Velamas. Thousands of years they lived like worriers/landlords/village headman /farmers. When ever they got oppurtunity they formed small kingdoms under big dynasties.

After the Brahmins arrival to Southern Parts Caste system came into existence in South India from 500 BC. Except Brahmins and SC, ST all the South Indians are Dravidians.

Kammas Population is 65 lacs besides Velamas Population 35 lacs. They together constitutes 10% of Telugu speaking People.

Kammas worked as worriers and chieftains in Sathavahana Dynasty. After that kammas history is like this.....

Kamma Dynasties : (1) Musunuri Kings (1300 to 1400): They came from Masunuru Village in Krishna Dist. They Ruled Godavari to Gulbargh. They built forts at Toyyeru, Rajahmundry, Rekapalli (Badrachalam), Ramagiri (Karimnagar). Rajanayakudu, Prolayanayakudu, Kapayanayakudu, Vinayakadevudu & Toyyeti Anapothanayakudu, Gurijala Muppabupathi of Ramagiri etc. are the rulers of this dynasty. Somany historians agreed that Musunuri Kings are Kammas.

(2) Madurai Kings  (1559 to 1740) : They also said they belong to Kstriya community. But every body knows they are not kshtriyas. They kammas who worked as chieftains in Vijayanagar Dynasty. They appointed as Governors by Sri Krishnadevaraya. After the fall of Vijaya Nagar they declared indepence. Acharya Tirumala Ramachandra (well known historian) said Tirumala Nayakudu is a kamma with proofs.

(3) Samanatha kings/Jamindars :  Palanati Haihaya kings, Konidena kings, Ayyavamsam kings, Korukonda kings(Relatives of Musunuri Kings, Koppula kings (Musunuri Kings Relatives), Sayapaneni kings, Vasireddy kings, Yarlagadda kings, Suryadevara kings, Pemmasani kings,  Ravella kings,  Bellam kings, Golla kings, Alamandala kings, Adapa kings, Guntupalli kings, Dasari kings, Surapaneni kings, Balusu kings, Mikkilineni kings, etc.

Velamas : Dynasties : Rachakonda and Devarakond - 120 years in Telangana. Jamindars : Bobbili, Pitapuram, Nuzvid, Narasaraopet, Palvoncha, venkatagiri, jataprol, srikalahasti, Repalle after 1700 ad., somany doras were in velamas in Karimnagar, Warangal, Adilabad, Nalgonda, Mahaboobnagar etc.

I want to give brief history of other communities here:

Rajus: They are royal families, relatives of chola kings, chalukya kings, samavamsa kings, etc. Turpu Chalukyas, Pachima Chalukyas, Kalyani Chalukyas, Nellore Cholas, Rajahmundry Cholas, Renati Cholas,Eruva Cholas, Araveeti Kings of Vijayanagar (EI 9 /338 Atreyasa gothra) etc. Their other Samanthas/Zamindars are Vijayanagaram, Peddapuram, Ramachandrapuram, Tuni, Mogalithuru, Adhanki-ongle, Karveetinagar, Matli, Owk, etc. Their population is about 10 lacs

Reddys : Reddys are a farwards caste in Drividians, they are village headmen, farmers, landlords, Reddy Kings ruled coastal andhra for 100 years, they have samasthanams like Cheruku clan, Recherla clan, Gona clan, Gadvala kings, Vanaparthi, Medak, Demakonda (Kamareddy) and Polygars in Rayalaseema and Doras in Telangana. Some of the Rastrakuta chieftains / worriers belong to Maharastra may be mixed with them. (Rechera Reddys said in a inscription during Kakatiya period that they belongs to Reddykulam, clearly mentioned "Reddykula" word.) Their population is about 90 lacs

Kapu/Balija/Telaga : Kapus are formers/landlords/village headmans. Before Vijayanagar Empire they does not have enough history. Srikrishnadevaraya 's mother and Tanjore Nayaks may be balijas. they have some jagirdars / polygars. Their population is about 130 lacs.

In South India there is no Manu Darma Caste system before 500 BC. After the arrival of Brahmins they tried to implement from 500 BC. People did not give any importance to their caste system like North India. only Brahmins Practised caste system strictly others did not give much importance to that. You see Some Kapu/Telaga/Balija were worked as Business man, Kammas,Velama, Reddy, Nair, Modaliar, etc. caste people worked as kings. Yadavs,Boyas, SCs, STs are also worked as kings. Brahmins respected every king and they taken gifts from them, they praised them as gods. In North India lacs of Kshtriyas were there. But in South there is no such caste. kings were came out from local castes only.

Vishnukundina Kings were kshatriyas, Vishnukundina Madhav Varma is said to be the ancestor of Andhra Kshastriyas (Rajus). Vishnukundina Kings used Varma as title, Varma is a Kshatriya title from ancient days. Some Kshatriyas from Rajputana(now Rajasthan) moved to South India due to internal conflicts and external aggression later they came to be known as Rajus (Andhra Kshatriyas). Not every King becomes a Kshatriya. Kshatriyas they have there own Gothras and Customs. Shudra by becoming a king never becomes Kshatriya, they are distinguished by there customs which they are following since centuries. Andhra. Satavahanas, Eastern Chalukyas, Gajapathi -Pusapati dynasties are good examples of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.130.107 (talk) 09:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC) 59.162.168.118 09:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC) -

Madurai kings and their caste
Balijas are only trading community. The vanija name turned as Balija. That is why they keep setti as suffix. Those people do business (angallu) in Kota are called kota balija others are called as other balijas

In that kotitam khaifiat it is stating that Achyuta Devaraya had given that territory to Viswanadha Nayaka. When Achyuta Devaraya did this ?, in 1559 Achyuta Devaraya is not ruling the vijayanagar empire.

WHY DON'T THEY UPLOAD TELUGU SCRIPT

see the uploaded khaifiat.... " the North-sveta, the Xmravati, the Saligrama, the Ratna and the Bhavanl. The holy places iiicluded within the territory are: Setu-Ramebvaram, Dhanttskoti, Srlrangani, Totadri, Madhura, Alagiri, and Jambukesvaram. The towns are: TrLSrapiiri and Madhura. Acyutadeva Maharaya bestowed upon the city of Uadlmra the name of £aya-daksiQa-simha$ana- sthana (the headquarters of the Raya's Southern Throne), made Visvanatha Xayadu the ruler over this territory with its forts, nads, hamlets,villages, petas and towns, and invested him with the kingdom. Moreover. Acyutadeva Maharaya formally crowned Visvauatha Isayadu of the Garikepati family of the Balija caste as the king of Pandya country yielding a revenue of 2t crores of varahas; and he presented him the golden idols of Darga, Laksmi aud Laksmi-Narayana and sent him with ministers, councillors and troops to the South. Visvanatha Kayadu reached the city of Madhura, from which he began to govern the country entrusted to his care. Kaifiyai of tfar*5t*-&S&*** Kingf. L.R. 8, pp. 313-23,

153. the pltha he occupied by name Kulasekhara. 11 � 12. The emperor Raya supplicated Vigvega for a son and was directed by the god to seek the aid of the yogi. 13. The emperor got a son by favour of the yogi. 14. The emperor and his minister who got a son each by the yogfs favour become his pupils. 15. The emperor bestowed the Pandya country on the yogi as guru-daksina. amd the guru of the Karnltaka mlers.
 * 1 � 10. Praise of a yogi by name Srikanthakasavasif and
 * £lokas were irritten la the presence of Ayyanga^ayya, * resident of Jambnkerrnrajn

"

f An epigraph in the jambnkesvaram temple in the Trichinopoly district Friday Val&kha *Q 2, Vf scika, of the year Pramadi corre*poadiBg to 5.S. 1596 31 Oct. A.D. 1573) meatioas SadEsiva VSjap^ya Y5ji, son of MafcStdcva D&fit* and the i Caadrft£6fc}i*ra

>>>>> The script is in English you see it is not in telugu or tamil, in original script caste is mentioned or not ??????????? that is important to observe, in original there may not be caste discription only mentioned that Achuta devaraya given the state to him, in this script it may be changed like that, study the matter carefully, When that khaifiat prepared????????????<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Tuluva Dynasty Tuluva Narasa Nayaka 	1491-1503 Viranarasimha Raya 	1503-1509 Krishna Deva Raya 	1509-1529 Achyuta Deva Raya 	1529-1542 Sadashiva Raya 	1542-1570

See Babuuuu when the Pattabishekam of Viswanadha Nayaka was held ??????

Khaifiats are different kinds some were written over talapatram by resident village karanams (later period). there may be misstatements also. that is why we have to find actual date. what was written in the script. whethere there is mention of caste or included later. we have to find out.

If Madurai Nayaks belong to Balija community why they have given Nayakarams to so many kammas, i.e. Ilavarasanandanam, Kurivikulam, Nikarpatti, Ninymangalam, so many kamma poly gars like dundigal were appointed. while there was no balija Nayankarams and polygars.

and always Madurai Nayaks fight against Vijayanagar kings, after 1600 ad while Tanjore Nayaks supported them.

and Tuluva nadu is place in Karnataka. The Sangama vamsam is yadava vamsam of Kapili (a yadava state), Hari Hara and Bukka worked there for some time after the kapili was captured by muslim kings the started vizayanagar, Saluva vamsam is also a yadava vamsam they are relatives of sangama vamsam, Tuluva vamsam also a  Tuluva Yadavas/Kurubas of Karnataka who worked in telugu area as amarnayakas under sangama, saluva vamsams,  Arveeti vamsam is a telugu raju caste ( Karveetinagaram, owk, matli,  Nandyala rajus relatives????). You study any where any script ultimately you will find this.

chola kings are from Tamil Nadu and Chalukya kings are from Karnataka. They were no way related to andhra. their decedents are Rajus not kapus. Cholas kings are ruling from 500 bc in TN. They have occupied and ruled and have gone back and ruled in TN. If Cholas have this much population than where is the people belongs Satavahana, Pallava, Kalinga, salankayana, etc. kingdoms. how many they will be. The  Chode, Kode (Krishna Dist.), Konidena (in prakasam dist.), Chodavarapu, etc. surnames present in kammas also.

At the time of Krishnadevaraya there were about 70 Kamma Nayakas. There is places for them Vijayanagar city for some of them to stay while they visit Vijayanagar. This fact was agreed by Neelakanta Sastri ( who has studied vijayanagar history for 50 years)and others. several foreign tourists at that time also mentioned about kamma nayakas. But none of them mentioned about balija nayakas.

I belie that Kapus are farmers and during Vijaya Nagar period they had become worriers. The mother of Sri Krishnadevaraya,s mother may be a Balija. They got Tanjore state from Vijayanagar Kings. They have some polygars and small jamindars like (valluripalem, etc.)

Penukonda Charitra is telling that Vishwanadha Nayakudu is a Pemmasinga Nayudu (Pemmasani Nayakudu)

If Kammas are not worriers why lacs of people had gone to TN and Rayalaseema????????? That only tells their power. After Kammas left Vijayanagar and gone to Madurai The Dynasty was collapsed. The Yadava Kings were help less and given the state to Rajus and left from the seen. Achutadevarayalu is not alive at the time of Vishvanadha Nayaka became Independent ruler. He was appointed as governer by Srikrishnadevaraya himself not Achutadevaraya.

Edgar Thurston clearly stated that "It is SUPPOSED that Vijaya Nagar, Madurai, Tanjore nayakas are balijas" "OR NAYAKS IN THOSE DYNASTIES". In the same page he mentioned MADURAI & TANJORE NAYAKS STATED AS THEY BELONGS TO KSHTRIYA CASTE. (go through South Indian Castes & Tribes - Edgar Thurston)

and Kandy Nayaks belongs to Madurai Nayaka Vamsam they don't have separate Surname!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

You know in Raichur Battle our Mora Nayakudu, Kamma, attacked first. In a battle with Gajapathi Pammasani Thimma Nayudu assisted Krishnaraya. It tells their requirement.

59.162.168.118 09:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Pemmasani Valour
See the book (translation of Rayavachakamu) for the exploits of Ramalinga Nayudu at pages 138-140.(http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=62773998) ---Kumarrao 14:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Conversions to other religions
Of the various non-Brahmin groups, the Kammas converted in the greatest number and the conversion of some of them in the Guntur district is best documented. The Kammas played a leading role in the non-Brahmin movement, under the leadership of the Justice Party which dominated politics in the Madras Presidency during the 1920's. This movement originated as a protest against the leadership of the Brahmins of South India in political and social life. The Brahmins had been the first to acquire western education in this area and thereby obtained a near-monopoly on government positions. The Justice Party pressed for a quota system in order to ensure representation of all groups. They opposed the nationalist movement since they believed it would only consolidate the dominant position of the Brahmins. Opposition to the Brahmins expressed itself in the religious realm as well. The Smritis, the Puranas and even the Ramayana received criticism for being weighed in favor of the Aryans over the Dravidians and for containing humiliating references to non-Brahmins. In the Guntur and Krishna districts the Brahmins questioned the propriety of the Viswa Brahmins teaching the Vedas to the Kammas since they regarded both groups as Sudras. The Kammas reacted by training members of their own caste in priestcraft, calling them Kamma Brahmins. They established schools for this purpose in several areas. The dissatisfaction on the part of the Kammas and other dominant non-Brahmin groups, who in economic terms were part of the ruling class, with the Hindu social system which gave supernatural sanction to their being relegated to an inferior status, provided a contributing factor which allowed for the conversion of significant numbers of them. While the anti-Brahminical sentiment and growing secularism of the Kammas probably made them more tolerant of conversion than they might otherwise have been, the conversions themselves, came from corners far removed from the political agitation. There were also a few documented conversions to Islam though not publicised, like Malik Maqbul. -- Altruism T a l k - Contribs. 06:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article has been written in a peacock-style making blatant use of peacock terms. I have applied appropriate tags to those sections that have these peacock terms and have explained the reason for the tags as well in the edit summary. A major cleanup in NPOVing this article is needed. -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits10:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Just add the appropriate tags. Keep your nonsense in the edit summaries to yourself. -- Altruism T a l k - Contribs. 11:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added appropriate tags only, you dont have to tell me what I should keep to myself and what not. Request you to work on cleaning up the peacock terms or let the tags remain -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits11:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ample citations and references have been provided, including online citations, reference books, inscriptions etc. -- Altruism T a l k - Contribs. 11:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ample citations?? Three sections, Crossroads (??), Modern history and Politics have no citations and contain liberal use of peacock terms and hence have been appropriately tagged. Please do not make statements without knowing what the real article actually contains. -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits11:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Edited the martial clans
The martial clans mentioned does not mention belong solely to the kammas. As the surnames mentioned like Adapa,Dasari,matcha,konda are present in the Kapu/telaga/balija and Reddy castes too.So I have mentioned the same in the article in order to make it more meaningful.Just mentioning these surnames which belong to many of the other castes too does n't make sense. So it would be appropriate to mention the same in the article. John Rambo 16:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rambo4u (talk • contribs) 16:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Reply
The contribution of non-Kamma nayaks was undeniable. The article pertains to Kamma social group and it was mentioned that they played an important role during Vijayanagar times. The role of others can be mentioned in articles written on other social groups.Kumarrao (talk) 08:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Edits
Unnecessary edits such as adding new surnames, although well-meant, are not helpful.Kumarrao (talk) 13:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Long Lists
I appreciate the Users who put in long lists of surnames and MLAs. I deleted their input. I suggest creation of link articles rather than dilating the article with such info. Thanks.Kumarrao (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Introduction
Population figures do vary. Unless there is evidence that that the current proportion is 7%, refrain from editing. No separate mention of TN Kamma names is necessary in introduction. Periyar was not a Kamma.Kumarrao (talk) 10:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear Sriramas, Your inputs were reverted. You may include the information in respective sections but not in 'Introduction'.Kumarrao (talk) 12:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Sriramas Edits
Dear Sriramas,

You are supposed to discuss in talk pages before making significant edits. I have indicated so earlier. All the info about population figures, surnames etc., has been included after careful research and analysis. If you continue to make edits without discussion, Wiki administrators will be contacted for action.Kumarrao (talk) 10:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Edits
Vandals are warned that their acts will be reported to the administrators. Well-meaning inputs should be made only after they are discussed first. Inclusion of more surnames is not encouraged because it will lead to Pandora's box like situation. User:Sriramas and User:Lakshminivas seem to be sockpuppets. They are appealed to restrain themselves from making unnecesary edits.Kumarrao (talk) 07:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Chalukya element
Dear Mr Prithvi,

You have misunderstood the contents of the article.


 * The article did not mention anywhere that Kammas are/were Kshatriyas. Many inscriptions and literature mentioned that they were of 'Chaturtha Kula'.


 * The article talked about a possibility that Buddist kurmis of Bihar migrated to Karmarashtram.


 * I totally agree with you regarding Chalukya Chodas and the input of Durga Prasad. However, it would not alter or affect my position.


 * It is a historical fact that a section of Haihayas and Chalukyas in the region of Kammanadu merged with Kammas because of political compulsions. This does not apply to Chalukyas present in other regions of Andhra.


 * Each and every sentence written in the article was supported by evidence, proof and citation of books by authoritative sources not biased persons.


 * Seems there is some reluctance on your part to accept the fact that a few Haihayas and Chalukyas joined Kamma social group. There was nothing odd in that. We got to place ourselves in 11th century Andhra to understand the logic.


 * I am reverting your edit. Any further edits by you regarding this point will be taken to administrators.Kumarrao (talk) 05:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Edits
It is unfortunate that trivial edits are being done spoiling the article. Please refrain.Kumarrao (talk) 13:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is Sridevi's image listed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.199.75 (talk) 21:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

New Edits
Edits by 69.73.18.146 were trivial and superfluos. The changes were deleted. Kumarrao (talk) 13:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This discussion proves never trust Indian Authors. Also alot of false statements were given above about Balija for example Kamma Balija still exists but Kamma is short for Kammala as they make them. They cosider themselves as a Kapu section and they do marry into other sections of Kapus plus they have all the same surnames as other Kapus. Kakatiya Dynasty had alot of Kapus and downfall clearly wriiten in history was due to the rise of prominence of Kamma and Velma castes namely Malik Macboul (Kamma)the traitor. According to the Brahmins in the temples in Madurai Dynasty areas all the decendents of Madurai Dynasty were Kapu and he even said everyone living here were living here since the Empire and are all Kapu and said he would introduce me to them. Paritala Ravis is not a Kamma he is a Boya. He was taken in to the Kamma caste by N.T. RamaRao as his right hand. This man the is the guy responsible for Ranga's death ordered by N.T. RamaRao. This man is a cold blooded murderer he is responsible for killing 1000s. Good riddance. From what I heard Ranga is not a goonda at all but had enough popularity to overthrow N.T. RamaRao and his government and he was becoming and obstacle for them. His son I heard is a goonda but his resoning is understandable. The current state government then killed your father because he was an obstacle to their plans. But I have not heard anything about demanding extortion money etc. All I heard was he was a big thorn in TDP's side. FYI Ranga's son is half Kamma as his mother his Kamma.

Also if the Kammas actually ruled back then them all the temples will be full of Kamma priests instead of Brahmin priests. No offence but Kamma caste does not give any immportance to Brahmin priests at all as I been to 3 Kamma weddings out of which 2 had Kamma priest which were horrible in the mantralu and 1 wedding which had a brahmin priest most likely due to groom being white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.193.26 (talk) 22:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Kota Ancestry
Dear Kumarrao, As you have strongly defending Yashoda Devi's book Talk:Kota Vamsa, basing on it I correct lines on Kota ancestry. Page 159 clearly mentions that Kota Ketaraja II was the ancestor of the three Kshatriya families of Datla, Jampana and Dantuluri (http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-d9IAvFOUHsC&pg=PA171&dq=dhanyakataka&lr=#PPA159,M1). It also clearly mentions ab Kota kings to be of Dhananjaya Gotra without any doubt. Also Famous historians M.S. Rama Swami Ayyangar, B. Seshagiri Rao, Durga Prasad & VR Rao Vepachedu clearly told Kota Kings to be ancestors of Dhananjaya Gotra Rajus.

As this is sensitive issue, reference from A biased caste book cannot be considered as it is a Book on Kammas written by a Kamma. It can never b considered as History book by any standrads. Plz refer any authenticated Historical book r Historian qoutes instead of a biased caste book.

There is no Dhananjaya Gotra in Kamma caste and No historian ever has linked Kota kings lineage to kamma caste. If u have anything then plz argue with Historians Yashoda devi, M.S. Rama Swami Ayyangar, B. Seshagiri Rao, Durga Prasad & VR Rao Vepachedu n many other historians who clearly told Kota Kings are of Raju tradition.

Thanks Indianprithvi (talk) 18:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Ancestry
Self-glorifying edits are not desirable. One should accept the truth that Kammas were probably Aryan immigrants to South India and took to cultivation like other Sudra peasant groups such as Kapu, Velama, Balija, Reddy (kapu) etc. Historical developments made them to take to arms and fight battles. Because of the prominence they gained they ruled, although for short periods. This will not make them Kshatriyas. Some intermingling with Kshatriya clans did happen because of political reasons. Kumarrao (talk) 16:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Origins of Agragarian Communities of A.P.
Reponding to the above comment it makes sense to a certain extent...

I would like to discuss the origins of Reddy,Kapu,Kamma and Velamas...i would like to invite comments and responses forwhat i post here...Constructive ofcource..

^^^^^^ The Reddys are more closely Associated with the Rashtrakutas... and their invasion of Andhra which happened in 7th Century AD... If you see the settlement patterns of the Reddys in Andhra they are moslty populated in the Arid Regions of Rayalaseema and Telangana... which were the domains of the Rashtrakutas... and the only Delta region they seem to have settled in is in Nellore District... This shows they might have infact settled in Andhra region during the Rashtrakuta Rule

The Reddys are alsoclosely Associated with the Southern Rajasthani Rajputs and donot claim or have an Aryan connection...

Aryan here doesnt necessarily mean the mythological meaning of being a Kshtriya i would be merely referring to a class of people who settled down on the Ganges and Yamuna Plains... For Example Kurmis...

^^^^^^ The Kapu's Ancestry can be Accorded to the Kaampu Migration Theory...since the Kapu settlements are mosly in Delta Areas and on the Banks of rivers Godavari and Krishna right from Nizamabad to West Godavari... Points to basic Migration theory that any immigrant popoulation would settle down on sources of water and fertile Agriculture lands...

So According to the followingefore logic the Kapu settlements were prior to the Reddy settlements...And the logic also says the Kapu and Reddy Settlement areas are mutually exclusive of each other..Since regions which have Reddys population donot havea major Kapu population and viceversa...Ofcource mostmodern day settlements 500 years are so would be a homogeneous mixture of the above two communities

^^^^^^^^^ Now coming to the intersting part

The Kamma settlements are not mutually exclusive with the Kapus... which basically points to the fact that the Kammas might have infact been the Buddhist Kurmi Migrants And hence heavy settlements are found in Karmarashtra region of Guntur Dt which points to their Buddhiste affiliation...

The Kambhojas theory also sounds a valid one Which also points to the fact that the British Manuals of Godavari and Colin Mckenzie point to a theory and folklore the Kammas migrated and fled from the wrath of the Emperor who chased them down from the North(Maybe Pratihara) and they settled down in the Godavari regions under the protection of the Kapu's who were the local rulers during this period and would haveconverted to Hinduism... this supports the Kambhoja Origin of the Kammas...

Thirdly may be there were two migrations of Kammas one Budhist Kurmi that predated the Kambhoja Migration being the second one..

So their arrival in the region might predate Reddy and must have co-incided with the Kapu migration or might have come after the Kapu migration...

But being a Buddhist clan and their conversion into Hindusim might have occcured 1000 Years back might also point to the lack of inscriptions of the Kammas before 1000 A.D.

^^^^^ Velamas... I frankly think they were a part of kammas or the people who were forced out of the Palnadu region and who went and settled in Telangana during or after the Palnadu war...

There is no mention of the velamas also before 1000 A.D.

Panel1 (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)Panel1

Kammas are descendents of kamboja clan.
Kamboja kings are kshatriyas in North India —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ureddy (talk • contribs) 22:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Surname Evolution
''It would be apt if someone could extend this section and provide references for the evolution of surname. I have read some where that all names that end in ['neni'] are derived from ['sahni'], just as ['reddy'] from ['rathod'] Neni exists in velama and Kapu Castes as well So what do you want us to conclude are these communities related???.''

Keeping the sudra vs khsatriya aside.. has there been any research done on the evolution of the Surnames ?. When we refer to some of the documentation on tamilnadu gothram's it points to some names like sennar evolving into seni or sani or sahni but there is no indication of what that means and how it evolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.68.205 (talk) 17:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Discussion
Old discussion is archived. Start new discussion.Kumarrao (talk) 06:36, 20 June 2011 (UTC)