Talk:Kangal Shepherd Dog/Archive 1

Comment
There are issues with the impartiality and conciseness of this article, especially when it goes on and on about the cheetah problem in Africa in the "Kangal Dog Interationally" section. I strongly recommend revising this so that it is condensed into a more legible and concise paragraph specific to the dog, not the cheetah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NKato (talk • contribs) 22:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I'm going to rewrite the section in a few days if no veteran Wikipedia authors disagree or take action. Alfaarti (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

As promised
As I promised here is the unverified, and imporbable sentence I removed from the article.

Puppies weigh nearly 2 lb (900 g) at birth and by the time they reach seven weeks they are likely to reach 22 lb (10 kg) {citation needed}.

Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment
Kangal <--> Anatolian Shepherd Dog
 * kangal is the same dog as Anatolian Shepherd Dog
 * greatings from germany Benutzer:caronna

Hmm, interesting. New Encyclopedia of the Dog agrees with you, but FCI doesn't list Kangal Dog as an alternate name for the Anatolian, and ANKC seems to have separate descriptions for the 2 breeds ,. And UKC definitely defines them as different breeds,. So I think they need to stay as different articles, but the interesting conundrum of at least a couple of authorities using the same name should be dealt with. Elf | Talk 16:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

See also the discussion on Anatolian Shepherd Dog


 * "But in sum: a Kangal is a Kangal, because of history, not because of some piece of western paper. It is the national breed of Turkey. It originates in an isolated geographic and historic region of Turkey, developed along with its matching sheep to thrive in a particular environment. It's color is a visible trademark, but not the defining characteristic, any more than a Cleveland Bay horse is defined only by its color. Mismarks and untypey dogs occur with a frequency now that was not there even 10 years ago--because of increased urbanization and the introduction of outside dogs. But the Kangal Dog is a historic breed, and worthy of preservation.
 * As for where "other parties" want to draw the line--it's time for knowledgeable Turks to weigh in. It is hard to find any Turk who will agree with the "Anatolian lumpers" point of view, except perhaps a very few urban or disaffected people who have been "educated" away from the facts that should be obvious to anyone who visits the villages in the Sivas-Kangal region of Turkey."
 * Quoted from Anatolian Shepherd Dog talk page
 * So no, the Kangal is not the same dog as the Anatolian. Read Beautdogs' entire post in the Anatolian Shepherd dog talk page. My dictionary validates Beautdogs' story; Dogs, the ultimate dictionary of over 1,000 dog breeds by Desmond Morris. Avietar (talk) 08:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Kangals
We timed our male gangal at over 35 MPH when he was 3 years old. Our female weighs over 120 lbs and is just over 1 year old. Also many Kangals are not fawn colored but are siver and black with some lighter colors mixed in. Both of our dogs are verified 7 plus generations pure. Thanks Paul jacobeversol@comcast.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.140.122 (talk) 20:13, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Kangal Dog Breed Description
The current information on the Kangal Dog is inaccurate and deviates from official Turkish sources. The Kangal Dog wiki page should utilise and cite the breed information from the registered Kangal organisations in Turkey: Cynology Federation of Turkey (KIF) and Ankara Kangal Derneği (ANKADER)

A sub section could be created for the Western interpretation of Kangal EG: USA / UK / Euro Kangal photos and breed information - which reflect a different interpretation of Kangal than what is understood and accepted to be Kangal in Turkey. Bebekve (talk) 05:26, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I have added the KIF and ANKADER Kangal breed descriptions to the article. Bebekve (talk) 07:57, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The previous photograph in the Breed Information Box photograph I have moved to the first gallery which contains photos from previous edits to the article. The Kangal image now in the Breed Information Box is from ANKADER's Kangal research in Turkey, conducted in April 2012.

I have removed this paragraph: "Due to their overwhelming strength, size and obedient temperament, Kangal dogs are now becoming popular in underground-illegal dog fights. In such circumstances, violent characteristics observed are brought out due to the dog's treatment by its owner; in most cases, these are quite degrading." as there was no source other than personal opinion of the author. Hopefully the author can provide a reference or verified information so the paragraph can be re-instated as factual objective content. Bebekve (talk) 23:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Info box photo & tidy up
I have made some slight amendments to the info box and article. I have changed the photo back to the one of the dog standing side on and used the info box template which gives more detail to allow the height/weight to be included there; the figures I've included are those quoted in the UKC Standard and the Kangal Kopegi. If I have got any of the details wrong, please correct them! I have also inserted just one 'clean up' template at the top of the article instead of them being displayed in various sections - I hope this makes the article easier to read while it is being worked on. There seem to be a lot of 'external links' building up - would it be possible to reduce these by incorporating them as references or in some other way? SagaciousPhil  -  Chat  15:54, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The photo in the Breed Information Box has again been changed, so I will replace the photo with the Sivas Kangal Photo demonstrating head type and outline.
 * I have also undone the height and weight changes made since your edit.
 * There is no edit explanation on this talk page or the other editor's talk page to explain their photo change or their height/weight figures for Kangal.

Regarding Figures and Breed Standards
 * I agree the figures included in the Breed Information Box should be referenced from Breed Standards.
 * At this point in time, the available Breed Standards from the registered organisations in Turkey, is the 'Kangal - Turkish Shepherd Dog' from the Cynology Federation Of Turkey (KIF).
 * I am not sure what organisation or Breed Standard you are referring to wrt 'Kangal Kopegi'? :)

Yes some external links can be incorporated as references. There also may be external links which can be removed. I won't make any edits to the external links without first discussing proposed changes here on the talk page.

Bebekve (talk) 04:51, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Breed Information Box Photo:

The current image is a standing photograph of a male Kangal in Sivas, Turkey. An alternative image is in the second photo gallery - a standing photograph of another male Kangal dog in Sivas. Both Kangal dog images are sourced from the Ankara Kangal Derneği in Turkey.

Bebekve (talk) 05:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Information Box Breed Standards
KIF and ANKADER's Kangal Breed Standards should be listed and have precedence over the UK and USA Kangal Breed Standards (the Breed Standards differ). Neither organisation is listed in the Information Box. Bebekve (talk) 05:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion re photos, height, weight and info box
Note - I've copied the comments below from my talk page and asked both editors to continue discussion here so everything is in one place. SagaciousPhil  -  Chat  12:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello my friend Listen UKC is a joke to me as a Kangal onwer also the photos you had put many times aren't pure Kangal The dog in the first is like Akyaka type not sure how much you know abouy Kangal The Standars of Kangal changed and will change again soon Personally I trust only Guru Turhan UKC and KIF is a joke to me I will put Kangal again true Kangal not akyaka — Preceding unsigned comment added byCobra-BlackMamba (talk • contribs) 01:31, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The current Kangal photos are from ANKADER. The UKC Breed Standard is based on Nelson's relay of Turhan's description of Kangal. Bebekve (talk) 06:41, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Suggestions....
 * Hi guys, I really appreciate you coming here to discuss this and as I've mentioned on your talk pages, I'd suggest not changing photos or height/weight information until it's been discussed. You both have far more knowledge about the Kangal Dog than I do as I admit I don't know anything about the breed, I was simply trying to help and hoped to be entirely neutral by including the information in the references given.
 * I took the height and weight measurements from the UKC standard and the Kangal Kopegi website here http://www.kangalkopegi.org/breed.html which is used as reference #5 in the article. If different 'agencies' (for want of a better word) are stating varying heights and weights, would a solution be to include a paragraph explaining this and quoting the variations?
 * The info boxes do only give the main registries and I don't know how to change that - but what about including KIF and ANKADER in the 'notes' section of the info box? I appreciate this is probably not ideal but might be a way to work with what we've got?
 * The photo used in the info box is generally of a dog standing side on to allow readers to get an initial overall idea of the dog. Perhaps if the current standing photo is left in the info box and the picture Cobra-BlackMamba has is taken out of the gallery where it is only small and used beside a short paragraph briefly describing the differing types in the breed? As I said, I don't know specifically about the Kangal dog but I do understand about differing types within a breed. Would this perhaps be a compromise?
 * You've both shown you have a lot of knowledge about Kangal dogs and it's great you want to help improve this article - I'm sure if you work together, you will be able to make a really terrific article.


 * If I can help, just let me know.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  12:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Sag.Phil, your efforts are appreciated. I agree no further changes to the article until this has been discussed.

As previously stated, the current photograph in the breed info box and the second photo gallery are all Kangal photos sourced from ANKADER in Turkey.

Cobra-BlackMamba, what is your reason for editing the Kangal photos? Please provide citation other than personal opinion as a kangal owner.

Re breed standards and figures:

As a Turkish breed, Kangal figures should be sourced from the registered Kangal organisations in Turkey - KIF and ANKADER.

Both KIF and ANKADER have conducted research on Kangal and have resources of long standing breeders and Kangal knowledge base. FCI protocol for the adoption of breed standards is to follow the country of origin.

The current Kangal figures are sourced from the USA (UKC) and the UK (kangalkopegi.org). Bebekve (talk) 13:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Bebekve. Sorry, I hadn't realised that the Kangal Kopeki was a UK site - you guys will have to bear with my admitted and regrettable lack of knowledge about your breed as I try to help!
 * I have found the New Zealand KC breed Standard here. The UK Kennel Club should have its interim Standard ready soon but nothing has been released yet, Kennel Clubs can be very slow and I guess it will be after the New Year before we see anything from them now. I know the FCI uses the Standard from the country of origin but can you tell me where the FCI one is listed as I've looked on its site with no luck. Is it listed with the name spelt differently? I know and understand you both wanting to respect the Turkish Standards and give them priority but as this is the English Wiki these must also be considered. If we can get all of the Standards (and include them in the info box) it might help us phrase a paragraph explaining/highlighting the differences and showing any deviation from your official Turkish Standards. Would something like that work for both of you guys?


 * Let's wait a bit for Cobra-BlackMamba's thoughts - but also see if others may want to jump in and help here as well?  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  16:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes agreed.

Kangal is a very complex topic - within Turkey and without.

I suggest the kangal wiki article present the Turkish Kangal content, from Turkish sources, and then present the Western - USA / UK / German Kangal content. The NZD breed standard, the ANKC breed standard, the UKC breed standard all come from the same source - the USA kangal Dog Club.

If there are no objections I will add this verified information to the history section of the article:


 * Written record of the breed 'Kangal Dog' did not exist in Turkey until after the USA Kangal :Dog Club was created in 1984 by the American David Nelson - credited with 'discovering' the :Kangal Dog breed, and founder and president of the Kangal Dog Club Of America. "The existence of the Kangal Dog as a separate and distinct dog breed was first reported in :copyrighted international canine literature by the authors, David and Judith Nelson. No American, European, or Australian copyrighted publication pre-dates the foregoing publicity. The breed was advertised in the West and bred as a distinct dog breed since 1984 by the members of the Kangal Dog Club of America, Inc."
 * "The development of the Kangal Dog breed outside of Turkey required, as a part of the gentrification process, the establishment of a breed society to maintain a stud book and to promote the breed to the public. The Kangal Dog Club of America, Inc. was organized to accomplish this objective."


 * It is no coincidence that 'Kangal Dog' did not exist in any published Turkish literature, until after the USA Kangal Dog Club was created in 1984. The first Turkish language description of Kangal did not appear until 1987 . Previous to this - all early Turkish literature and government publications use the breed name 'Çoban Köpegi'.

Regarding the UK and UKC Kangal Breed Standards:

It was not until 2006 that KIF (Cynology Kennel Club Of Turkey) became a contract partner of the FCI. Until KIF is established as a full member of the FCI, the dogs of Turkey are under the breed standard Coban Kopegi (Anatolian Shepherd), country of origin Anatolia. The UK Kennel Club's Breed Standard will have no relevance beyond UK borders because International Kennel Club FCI policy is to only recognise the breed standards from the country of origin. The United Kennel Club of USA, is not recognised as a Kennel Club beyond the borders of USA. This is why I suggest that for the wiki article to accurately portray kangal, the foremost sources should be Turkish registered Kangal organizations, KIF and ANKADER. The reason for kennel clubs to only recognise country of origin is to limit the number of breed standards around the world. For example, the USA Kangal Club writes that brindle coloured Kangal indicates cross breeding. KIF's Kangal Breed Standard accepts brindle coloured Kangals. I dont think it is helpful for readers to believe that brindle Kangals do not exist because the American or New Zealand breed standard says so. The accuracy of the content provided in dog breed articles, should not be based on the English language but the dog breed country of origin. "Around 1990 at the World Canine Conference it was unanimously agreed not to introduce any more alternative Breed Standards for existing breeds, but rather for Canine Controlling Bodies to adopt one of the Standards existing with preference to adopting the Breed Standard produced by the Country of Origin/Country of Development."

Bebekve (talk) 00:13, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Bebekve, I don't see any problem with continuing to work on - and the expansion of - other parts of the article. I suggest just avoiding the areas of height/weight and changing the photo used in the info box until we can resolve the differences that are coming up due to the variations in the Standards. Cobra-BlackMamba might be very busy at this time because of Christmas and the New Year so we should give plenty of time to wait for his thoughts, input and help in those areas he has commented on?


 * I realise what a complex topic this is - I had read this article commenting on the UK Kennel Club recognition of the Kangal Dog and it just had me confused about the Kangal Dog and the Anatolian Shepherd - that's why I'll leave it to experts like you guys to sort out the rest of the article! Thanks for helping clear up some of my confusion, I'm finding all of the detail about the breed really interesting.   SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  13:26, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Kangal dog is a big dog according to Mr.Turhan who I met in Sivas
 * Also when I see people talk about UKC I wonder do they know anything about Kangal the history and the ancestors??
 * I don't care about UKC..
 * All I know is that UKC and KIF want to make Kangal like Anatolian Shepherd ...Kangal is Kangal and is bigger dog and with no mixes..Sure some people did mixes in Turkey but people with knowledge can see these dogs..
 * Mr Turhan said that Kangal Kral Jr. and Kangal Kuzeyli is two of the ten greatest male he ever seen and these dogs are big...Ad if you don't beieve you can call him or you can meet him at Sivas like we did


 * Also Kangal standart is in the air untl the breed be at FCI..


 * The most dogs you have at the photos are like Anatolian Shepherds and not like Kangal — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cobra-BlackMamba (talk • contribs) 15:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I have changed the height/weight figures back to the only published figures currently available; I also added the New Zealand KC standard to the info box and included the KIF standard as a link under the notes section in the info box. I have left the photo Cobra-BlackMamba put in the info box yesterday as it is a dog standing - as I mentioned previously I do not know anything about type etc in this particular breed so will not become involved in debating the differences as far as type etc is concerned.


 * Cobra-BlackMamba - it is great you are coming here to comment and you input is much appreciated. However, please do not insert heights or weights unless you have a published source for it. Until the FCI or others publish different figures, Wikipedia must use the only published sources available. I know and appreciate how frustrating you must find this - I often disagree with things various Kennel Clubs or associations do but we have to be patient until things can be verified, that is just the way Wikipedia has to work. I have also dropped a short note on your talk page.


 * I really am just trying to help you both here as I'm sure if you both work together you can make this a really good article.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  13:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

It is difficult to engage in meaningful discussion on article content, when Cobra-BlackMamba's edit reasons of hearsay and "I dont care", are against wikipedia's three core policies of 1. Neutral point of view; 2.No original research; 3. Verifiability. Bebekve (talk) 02:08, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the information breed photo: the photos in the second gallery are from Ankara Kangal Derneği (ANKADER) in Turkey and are regarded as good examples of Kangal.

Cobra-BlackMamba has not provided any edit reasons for their removal. Moreover, the Kral photo provided by Cobra-BlackMamba obscures head type (skull, muzzle, eyes, stop) - important Kangal characteristics according to KIF and ANKADER.

Cobra-BlackMamba: what features make the Kral photo a more accurate representation of Kangal?

Please explain what features you are trying to demonstrate.

Bebekve (talk) 03:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Appearance
I apologise for taking a short while to get back to working on this - I thought it might be better to wait for the UK Kennel Club to publish its interim standard and also to give Cobra-BlackMamba time to comment. Now an interim standard has been published by the KC, I have gone ahead and added it to the info box together with a short sentence about it under the heading of 'The Kangal internationally'.

I would suggest re-wording the 'Appearance' section using the Turkish (KIF) information first as it is the homeland of the Kangal and highlighting the differences between the standards. The changes are shown in italics on this talk page to hopefully make it easier to follow. It would also be helpful if the verified history section given by Bebekve above is also added into the article?

Suggested addition under 'Appearance':


 * There are subtle variations given in the standards used by different countries when describing the height and weight. In the Kangal’s homeland of Turkey, the only measurements desired are quoted by KIF as a height at the withers of 65-78 cms with a two cm tolerance either way. KIF does not differentiate between male and female statistics.  Although other standards internationally are fairly consistent with each other, they are at odds with KIF as their guidelines are for a larger dog. In the UK, the Kennel Club interim standard states the height at shoulders should be males 74-81 cms (29-32 ins) with bitches at 71-79 cms (28-31 ins) without specifying any weight guidelines. The New Zealand Kennel Club quotes height for males as 76 - 81.5 cm (30 - 32 ins) with a weight of 50-63 kg (110 - 140lbs) and a bitches height as 71 -78.5 cm (28 - 31 ins) weighing 41 - 59 kg (90 - 130 lbs). In America, the only agency to recognise the breed is the UKC and its standard gives 30 to 32 inches for males, weight 110-145 lbs and 28 to 30 inches for females with a weight of 90-120 lbs. 


 * The Kangal Dog is not as heavy as some other mastiff breeds, allowing it greater speed and agility than larger dogs. Kangal dogs can reach speeds of up to 50 km (30 miles) per hour.[6] The under-layer provides insulation against both severe Anatolian winters and the fierce summer sun, while the outer-layer repels water and snow. This combination of coat allows it to regulate its core temperature more efficiently, while the coat is dense enough to repel rupture from wolf bites.[6]


 * Further differences between the KIF standard and those used internationally are found in the guidelines for coat and colour. The registered Kangal organizations in Turkey, Cynology Federation Of Turkey (KIF) and Ankara Kangal Derneği (ANKADER) do not regard coat colour as a breed defining feature. Brindle, recessive black tan pattern, white markings and a longer coat are regarded as Kangal and are not indicative of cross breeding. Rather it is head structure and morphology that differentiate Kangal from other Çoban Köpegi.


 * In contrast other kennel clubs describe coat and colour as perhaps the most visible traits that distinguish the Kangal from the Akbash and Anatolian. The coat must be short and dense, not long or feathery, and of a pale fawn or tan color with varying amounts of sable guard hairs. All Kangal Dogs have a black facial mask, and black or shaded ears. White at certain points (chest, chin, toes) may or may not be allowed, depending on the standard. Some heavily sabled Kangals also have darker legs and chests. Most importantly, the coat should not be broken, brindled, or spotted. Cropping of the ears is done for several reasons, including the cultural demonstration of ownership vice feral dog, for appearance and for protection, as long ears can be vulnerable in a physical confrontation with a predator. It is also believed that cropping improves the dog's hearing because sound can travel into ear easier. It should be noted the cropping of ears is illegal in the UK.

It would be better if the height and weight figures are then removed completely from the info box and insert 'See under 'Appearance' section for variations'. Would that work and/or make sense? Comments? SagaciousPhil  -  Chat  12:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * As it's now two weeks since I posted the above and no further comment/objection has been made, I will now make the alterations as suggested above.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  15:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment
The link in the Kangal article for mastiff should not redirect to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Mastiff; there are many different types of mastiffs, English mastiff just one of them. 15:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Number of cheetahs killed by farmers
Numbers on cheetahs killed is obviously wrong: "During the past 14 years the number of cheetahs killed by farmers is calculated to have fallen from 19 per farmer annually to 2.4." I am sure, that average farmer does not kill 19 nor 2.4 cheetahs each year. Maybe it is a total number of cheetahs killed, not "per farmer"?--95.80.234.40 (talk) 08:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Picture Issue
The first picture in this article is also used in the Anatolian Shepherd article, which in and of itself is not necessarily bad due to the close relationship and the position of some sources that they're the same breed. However, this article lists the location the picture was taken as Turkey, and the other lists it as France. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.133.199 (talk) 04:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Picture Problem
I just wanted to point out that the dog in the picture that is used to show a Kangal's coat lacks a black mask.

Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Kangal Dog is a Turkish dog and much information here is deceptive and wrong. As already suggested the page needs to utilise and source Cynology Federation of Turkey (KIF), a full memeber of FCI. Unfortunately Kangal like dogs from Turkey were taken by Westeners decades ago to create a breed called Anatolian Dog which is completely different from Kangal Dog. Anatolian Dog is a fabricated breed by foreigners using variety of dogs from Turkey. It is totally wrong to amalgamate Anatolian Dogs and Kangal Dogs into one group. Anatolian Dog has never been recognised by Turkey as a National Breed but rather a mixed breed of dogs from Turkey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lloydharrychristmas (talk • contribs) 00:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Why not just "Kangal"?
Have not seen this dog referred to as "Kangal Shepherd Dog", its always just Kangal.


 * Signed and dated for archiving purposes only. William Harris •   (talk) •  11:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Comment
Regarding the Anantolian and Kangal being the same: The two groups are registered separately and are being bred separately. Even if they derived from the same land-race, they are now separate.


 * Signed and dated for archiving purposes only. William Harris •   (talk) •  11:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism
Reversed the obvious vandalism on the article. Please check the original references before putting "fictitous names" for them, putting "The Kangal Dog of Kurdistan" for the article http://www.kangalkopegi.org/breed.html when it clearly states "The Kangal Dog of Turkey" is quite childish. Also removed 2 paragraphs : The "Islamic" tradition that "the dogs are dirty" is a shafi tradition mainly followed by Kurds in regions like Hakkari, Bitlis, Diyarbakır. It is not is hanafi or alevi traditions followed by people in Sivas or rest of Anatolia. That PKK tried to use these dogs as guard dogs is also vandalism. I remember reading an article that Turkish Armed Forces trying to use them as guards dogs but cancel the program in favor of german shepherds, but I cannot source the article. Önder.


 * Signed and dated for archiving purposes only. William Harris •   (talk) •  11:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Comment
Is this an article about the dogs or an article about the dogs protecting Cheetah? In the Cheetah section, why is a second breed brought up? If the Anatolian is to be mentioned anywhere it should be in addressing the controversy between the Anatolian Shepherd Dog group and the Kangal dog group.


 * Signed and dated for archiving purposes only. William Harris •   (talk) •  11:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Kangal vs Anatolian Shepherd

 * Discussion moved from Talk:Anatolian Shepherd

Hello, reliable, secondary sources exist stating the Anatolian Shepherd and the Kangal are distinct (whilst acknowledging they are very closely related), these sources state the Turkish Kennel Club refuses to recognise American Anatolian Shepherds as Kangals, and further the Kennel Club in the UK recognises both breeds separately, an acknowledgment of this fact. Do you have any sources to substantiate your repeated reversions of reliably sourced information? Cavalryman (talk) 22:23, 15 November 2020 (UTC).
 * Further, I suggest you review the source discussed directly above this thread (Turkish kangal (Karabash) shepherd dog). It has a very informative section on pages 11-12:

Does any dog breed titled as the Anatolian Shepherd Dog exist? As it is seen above, there is no such 'breed' titled as the Anatolian Shepherd Dog among the purebred dogs of Turkey, not in name, not in concept, and not in reality. However, the flock guardian breed so called as the Anatolian Shepherd Dog is well-known across the world. Despite the name of Anatolian Shepherd Dog is used by some countries mostly the United Kingdom and the USA, in my humble opinion the purebred dog called as the Anatolian Shepherd Dog does not exist. Excluding the purebred ones above, all the flock guardian dogs seen throughout Anatolia known and called as the Anatolian Shepherd Dogs by their owners and breeders in foreign countries consist, as a matter of fact, of such a population created by mating of the purebred, the real Kangal Dog with some other breeds freely because the mating technique under control, namely breeding on a pedigreed basis is not applied in villages. This matter can better be seen in the photographs in further pages. Today majority of these mixed and wandering dogs lives independently in villages, town and even cities in Turkey. Bitches can mate easily and freely with one or more than of these male dogs during their rut periods. These mating male dogs may not always be the Kangal Dogs but various breeds, mongrel and even pariah dogs. As a result, number of dogs as if resembling the Kangal Dog is seen around but it will be clearly understood that they are not the purebred Kangal Dogs if they are seriously scrutinized. We may denominate these dogs as the Anatolian Shepherd Dogs although they have no breed features since they are not purebred. With their exterior appearance they resemble the Kangal Dog when seen from far but they have not a structure as large as the Kangal Dog. Moreover, neither they have a body shape as a lion, eyes and muzzle edged and particularly in tail with black mask, and ears as if adhered to his/her skull nor a tail hanging low with a slightly upward and forward curl. Resemblance with the Kangal Dogs relates only the colour of their coats despite it exhibits various colours. Piebald colours are very often seen. Their features of temperament and characters are not as good as the Kangal Dog*. *My advice to those who would like to purchase the real, purebred Kangal Dog among the ones being sold in Turkey as the Kangal Dogs of which we can only denominate them as the Anatolian Shepherd Dogs will be the information given in this book that they must read carefully and give their attention to because at least 70-80% of the dogs brought to me for examination by the owners who would like to know whether or not their dogs were the purebred Kangal was, unfortunately, the pariah dogs as explained above.


 * Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 22:55, 15 November 2020 (UTC).
 * I have moved the discussion to this location to not split it from merger proposal. Cavalryman (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC).

Merger proposal: Anatolian Shepherd
has proposed the Anatolian Shepherd article and this article be merged, in order to facilitate this process I am commencing (and consolidating) the discussion. I am not necessarily opposed to the idea, provided the Anatolian article is merged into the Kangal article and not the other way around. I will try to explain some background from my understanding of the sources:
 * the Anatolian was created when a number of Turkish livestock guardian dogs of indeterminate breeding were imported into America, in America a breed club was formed and the name Anatolian was coined, the breed was subsequently recognised by the AKC
 * the Anatolian is not recognised as a breed in Turkey (neither is the name), rather in Turkey it is seen as as an American crossbreed of the pedigree Kangal and the Akbash (and possibly some other types), this is disputed by the AKC
 * subsequently Americans have brought their (Anatolian) breed more into line with the Turkish Kangal by consistent importations of Kangal blood from Turkey
 * from the reliable sources I have seen, the Turkish (dog) authorities still do not recognise the Anatolian as a pedigree breed, I have seen some unreliable sources saying this may have changed, but nothing attributable
 * the FCI only recognise the Kangal and their breed standard makes no reference to anything Anatolian
 * the majority of Western sources (particularly older and American sources) say the Anatolian is a Turkish breed, whilst Turkish and some other sources say it is not, this is easily explained by a lack of understanding of the Turkish breeds and an blind acceptance of the AKC's position

If reliable sources can be presented saying Anatolians have been accepted as Kangals then this is an easy support and the above history can be reflected in the merged article. If not, any merger will need to clearly articulate the above. As already indicated, I strongly oppose any merger of Kangal into Anatolian. Cavalryman (talk) 05:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC).


 * Support merge. The Cynology Federation of Turkey website, under native breeds, only lists the Kangal here They have provided the FCI breed standard for the Kangal. There is no native breed called the Anatolian Shepherd as far as they are concerned. So who are we going to regard as the authority on Turkish breeds, Cynology Federation of Turkey/FCI or the American Kennel Club? My view is to go with the Turks and merge the Anatolian Shepherd into the Kangal with mention that this term is recognised by the AKC. William Harris (talk) 00:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment::A month has passed since this matter was first raised, therefore it should now be actioned. William Harris (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Lede pix deletion request
Those with an interest in this article need to be aware of this deletion stating that the pix is not of a Kangal:. William Harris (talk) 08:35, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Infobox image
Hello, looking at the article's [revision history, you have repeatedly attempted to remove the image from the infobox, claiming the dog in the image is not a Kangal, but you have provided no evidence of this. Other editors, including me most recently, have reverted your edits as we are entitled to do per [[WP:BRD]]. I would like to discuss other options here in a civilised manner, as opposed to the current slow montion edit war which is currently occurring. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 05:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC).
 * An infobox image should show a standing dog in profile, preferably with good lighting and contrast, that is a good representation of the breed. If possible I would prefer to see a picture of a working Kangal from Turkey, but there aren’t many that meet all of these requirements. Please see some suggested options below. Cavalryman (talk) 05:19, 16 June 2021 (UTC).

Hello Cavalryman. There are many working Kangal Dog photos from Turkey that can be used instead of the current photo. I have attended a number of KIF Kangal seminars and attended special Kangal shows in Bosnia and in direct contact with Kangal Club of Turkey associated with KIF. Preserving the Kangal dog overseas is a passion of mine for a long time and we have come a long way on many social platforms including facebook pages for Kangal. The information on wikipedia has improved over the last year or two however, there are still major flaws and misinformation, including the photos used currently. If one had to choose one of the photos in the list you have given, the only Kangal dog in there is the one uploaded by Kangalshepherddog. This dog is a direct import from Turkey with KIF Kangal pedigree. This dog entered Special Kangal Show in Bosnia about 5 years ago, judged by Turkish judges Fatih Cokcan and Dr Umit Ozkanal, where they scored the dog as excellent. Please consider using this dog as the cover photo as this dog also shows how the ears of a Kangal dog should look like. If you would like me to send you working dogs from Turkey l have plenty of photos that can be used. I also have countless historical photos of Kangal dogs in Turkey, ie from the 20s, 50s and 70s. These photos in my opinion need to be uploaded too to show how the Kangal dog over yime has remained unchanged. Kangalshepherddog (talk) 05:46, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: I an unable to identify what a Kangal looks like. However, I will say that the current lede pix was posted by an editor who took the pix themselves, so we cannot verify what it was. That dog is either the most robust version of a Kangal on the planet or that boy has some mastiff in him, which supports the view of editor Kangalshepherddog. (Looking at his shoulders and chest compared with the other dogs in the pix above, I would suggest some English mastiff.)
 * Wikimedia also hosts this "Anatolian Shepherd Dog" — File:Anatolian Shepherd Dog - Ch Full Circle Tip Of London Tower 12 (16396028007).jpg —- which is clearly a Great Dane mixed with a Ridgeback or similar. We must remain vigilant and use our discretion. A pix of a Kangal is found at Dogs NSW here posted by Dr Murat Ogut, it is very similar to the pix recommended by editor Kangalshepherddog, not to mention the same background of pine trees and similar wire fencing. (These Blacktown boys appear to know their Kangals - greetings from Adelaide.) William Harris<b style="color:purple"> (talk)</b> 08:37, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I would be happy with the second picture in the infobox. Cavalryman (talk) 19:41, 16 June 2021 (UTC).
 * Now actioned. <b style="color:black">William Harris</b><b style="color:purple"> (talk)</b> 22:08, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Namibia
"Since then, the number of cheetahs killed by farmers is calculated to have fallen from 19 per farmer annually to 2.4. Livestock losses have been cut significantly at more than 80% of the farms where the dogs have been adopted. The great majority of cheetahs that are still killed by farmers are killed after specific attacks on livestock. Previously, the cats were tracked and killed whenever they neared a farm." I don't want to remove this statement, but this is utter nonsense. I farm in Namibia and to say they were tracked and killed by default is nonsense. Leopards are a much greater concern to farmers, and their numbers have a larger impact on livestock (and are direct competition for cheetahs). There is a lot wrong with this statement. Rossouw (talk) 10:22, 16 April 2022 (UTC)