Talk:Kansas City–style barbecue

Deletion
Digitalme called for an early deletion of this article. I took it off because there was no justification for this. I put it back since deleting the template is not wiki. As of this writing every single person is opposed to the deletion. If digitalme had bothered to read the article or look at the sources, he would understand the importance and legitimatcy of this article. Americasroof 01:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The poll section on deletion is at    -- Americasroof 01:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See my comments at the debate.--digital_m e (TalkˑContribs) 02:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

This Article vs Regional Variations Article
I like the idea of an article about KC Barbecue, but for it to work, it needs a lot more. Right now, it doesn't have anything more really than the section KC section of the Regional barbecue Variations article. To validate this article, it needs to be more indepth than that. The two should also be reconciled... that section should provide a link to this main article, once this main article is brought up to speed. --Reverend Loki 22:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Other Noteworthy Restaurants
I think we need to include details and history for some of the other more noteworthy BBQ joints around the metro. For example, there's the Martin City Smokestack/Fiorella's Jack Stack.

Just what sort of standards should we set for inclusion into this article, anyways? Does Zarda get a mention? Summit Hickory Pit? BB's Lawnside? LC's? Winslow's City Market? Bates City? --Reverend Loki 15:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Loki, Some other bbq joints should also be mentioned but there should be some justification on why they are significant (e.g., Boyd's, Rosedale, Heywood). It's a slippery slope into commercialism though once we veer away from the basics.  The experience KC  article  is pretty good at selective listing and importance. The KC Public Library is pretty good with the city's history and they don't venture much further than what's been mentioned.  Americasroof 15:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm wondering - what is enough to warrant inclusion? Possible indicators: awards, sales numbers, famous and/or expert patronage/endorsement.  To further explain this last one - if it wasn't already included in the article, it may be that having both Truman and Carter as patrons warrants a mention, for example.  Or if, say, The Food Network features a restaurant, might that get a mention?  I agree, it is a slippery slope... that's why I wanted to open this up for discussion before I or anyone else delved into this.  Also, on the issue of awards - and I'm using this one, simply cause I live near it, and it is damn good - I know Jackstack has earned several "best of class" type awards from the Zagat Survey - would a semi-exclusive guide like that warrant anything?  I'm really not sure where to draw the line on this.  --Reverend Loki 16:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Race and BBQ
I'm o.k. with the recent edit regarding the race issue and BBQ. The subtext for the article has already been established with the inner city eurphemisms. It doesn't need to be hit over the head. The irony comes into play with KC Masterpiece created by a white doctor and originally entitled "K.C. Soul Style Barbecue Sauce." With it getting bought by Clorox, you can't make that stuff up!!! The edits though take away the potential flame bait and are good. Americasroof 18:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This was a really pointless comment to make. Not sure how it's related at all to the article.

Please include notability in other restaurants (Note about Jack Stack abuse)
Please include citations and references if you intend to add other restaurants to the article. Gates and Bryants are widely documented. There is currently an effort to raise Jack Stack to the same stature. If you're going to try to do that you better cite sources. It now reads as an unsourced ad. The author has written nothing but material about Jack Stack so it smacks of being a Sock puppetry  Americasroof 21:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I am one who feels that the Jack Stack mini-chain does deserve a good section here - beside being good food (arguably amongst the best in KC and the world), it's an example of the ongoing "scene" so to speak. Now, both Gates and Bryants are a big part of the history and development of KC style BBQ, and have definitely earned and continue to earn their dues, but that doesn't mean there's not room for more.  However, you are right - right now, it reads like an ad.  In fact, it may be straight out of their corporate literature - which, unless Johnson209 is authorized to publish under Wiki's license, is a copyright violation to boot.


 * In fact, now that I've taken a moment to look at Johnson's talk page, it looks like a Jack Stack article just got speedy deleted for copyright violation, citing the page:, which mirrors the text in this article. Although I'd like to see a Jack Stack section in this article, I'm removing this section as it currently stands.  Feel free to write a new, original section, but don't steal other's property to do so.  --Reverend Loki 21:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Jack Stack does deserve inclusion and attention for several reasons. Jack Stack predates KC Masterpiece by nearly 20 years; having been opened in 1957 off Old Highway 71 by Russel Fiorella under the name of Smokestack Barbecue.  In 1974, Jack Fiorella (the eldest son of Russel) branched-out and opened Fiorella's Smoke Stack in Martin City at 135th and Holmes Rd.  All of the current locations are owned and operated by various living members of the Fiorella family - with over 50 years of having been in business.  Smokestack was an established business and brand before Rich Davis jumped on the BBQ-bandwagon with KC Masterpiece.


 * Also, though I don't have the material before me but have read it before, the Fiorella family had actually been involved with the BBQ scene pre-1950s (and perhaps as early as 1914) operating out of the River Market area from their family owned market. I additionally believe this information is important considering the questionable nature of the attachment of ethnicity to BBQ in Kansas City pre-1950s - stating that BBQ was exclusively the domain of the "inner-city."


 * Sanitized, political "history" is dangerous. History should be inclusive of all aspects and facets - not be used to paint a specific portrait that some (or all) may find more desirable.  67.65.56.52 (talk) 13:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Missing basic information
I was reading Regional variations of barbecue, and found the section there on Kansas City somewhat lacking; I couldn't tell from it what separated the Kansas City variation from any of the others, other than the fact that apparently Kansas City uses sauce, so I came to this article. This article also gives a lot of information on different restaurants and their different sauces, but I'm still missing the basic information: what characterizes Kansas City-style? Is it just the sauce? Beef or pork? Does the cut matter? As someone who knows little about barbecue, I don't even know all the questions I should be asking, but basically, this article and the corresponding section in Regional variations of barbecue seem to focus on the background of Kansas City-style without actually saying what Kansas City-style actually is. I want to learn, tell me! Bgruber 10:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point... it does tend to focus on the history of the style, and not on what the style is. Well, informally put, it relies heavily on beef like Texan styles, but does include other meats especially pork.  This is primarily a result of KC's history as a major spot in the old cattle drives - KC had the biggest stockyards outside of Chicago, I believe.  As a result, there was a lot of it around to use (remember, BBQ started as a way for usually poor people to take cheap and less appetizing meat and make it good!).  Sauce is indeed very important - usually a thick, mildly spicy dark sauce, though there is enough variation to cover some lighter and thinner varieties.  Gates is thick, spicy and dark, while Jack Stack is milder, with a bit more smoky taste.  Arthur Bryant (I somehow have managed to not have eaten there yet!), as I understand, is thinner and lighter. However, that said, sauce isn't the only thing, and in fact might not be the most important.  One thing KC had cheaply and abundantly "way back when" was trees, which meant there was no shortage of wood around for properly smoking meat.  Seems to me KC style is centered around slabs of beef that have been slowly roasting over a wood fire pit for most of the day at least.  Though the sauce is noticed most often, KC is sort of a crossroads of styles - some places really stress their dry rubs, some baste the meat in sauce all day, some don't add any sauce until it's served.  Anyways...  I've gone on long enough.  Needless to say, this entire paragraph is without proper research, just what I recall off the top of my head.  If anyone wants to take what I've written and run with it, go for it!  Or, scrap it all and go from scratch.  I myself won't have a chance to properly research this for several weeks at least.  Still... --Reverend Loki 17:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

But HOW is it cooked?
I have been reading up on the regional variations on barbecue (I never knew it had so many meanings until reading wikipedia)... How exactly is Kansas City-style barbecue cooked? On a barbecue? In a conventional sort of oven? In a smoker? The picture itself looks like an oven-of-sorts. So, can an expert enlighten us please? :-)

Adam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * KC BBQ is cooked in any one of those. It just depends on the restaurant or home cooking the meat --Tagno25 (talk) 23:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Mr Epps
I see one editor has been working hard to add a new section about Mr Epps BBQ restaurant in here. Unfortunately, I don't see much to speak of enough notability to warrant inclusion as a separate section of this article. I know that many BBQ restaurants would like to think they warrant such, but we have to draw a line. Further, even if notability requirements are met, the section as it exists reads like a mini-history of KC BBQ, restating many things which are already stated elsewhere in the article more appropriately. For that reason alone it needs to be re-written. Lastly, it also does not meet NPOV standards, for which it also needs to be re-written. For these reasons, I am going to remove the section. I invite the author to discuss this sections merits here, seek advice, do whatever. If you are new to Wikipedia, I advise you t spend some time amongst the help files to better acquaint yourself with the site. Also, don't be alarmed by the loss of previous work - all of your previous edits are still accessible via the page history. I also invite them to register a username, to better identify themselves (though not a necessity). Only slightly related, if I get a chance I am going to re-order the list of other restaurants to something objective, like alphabetical order. --Reverend Loki (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancy between this page and the "Arthur Bryant's" page
This article says "In 1974, Kansas City native Calvin Trillin wrote an article in New Yorker Magazine proclaiming [Arthur] Bryant's to be the best restaurant on the planet." However, the Arthur Bryant's page says "it became the subject of international attention when, in 1974, writer Calvin Trillin wrote in Playboy that Arthur Bryant's in Kansas City was '...possibly the single best restaurant in the world.'" I have no idea whether Trillin wrote about Arthur Bryant's in Playboy or the New Yorker, but unless he wrote about Kansas City barbecue in both magazines in the same year then one of these citations is obviously wrong. Diegodad (talk) 14:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)Diegodad

New Picture
Can we get a new picture of an example of KC style bbq? The one on the page is hidden by fries and the ham/turkey whatever looks particularly unappetizing. Minguo (talk) 03:28, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Additional Section (Curt's Famous Meats)
Hello, I just wanted to notify that I will soon be adding a section about "Curt's Famous Meats" (as I am about to create an individual article on this subject), and just wanted to see if there were any objections to this. I am sure it's many awards in barbecue (such as the 8-time American Royal champion) and long history with Kansas City has credited it enough to be included in this article. The Market was founded in 1947, so I am planning to place this section between "Gates & Sons" (1946) and "Fiorella's Jack Stack Barbecue" (1957). I hope this is satisfactory. Zach Winkler (talk) 07:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

"Tomato based" incorrect
I feel "tomato based" is an expression used by those with little experience actually cooking. The dry rub as well as sauce are "based" primarily on dry sweet red pepper powders also known as paprika which is the main ingredient of chili powder. Many barbecue recipes contain no tomato whatever; the red comes from the paprika. Kansas City style is flavored with tomato; it is far from the main ingredient so it is not "based" on tomato. I will change this to "tomato seasoned" soon if there is no objection. Mydogtrouble (talk) 13:33, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

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