Talk:Karait

The Cite from one of new  "references" -Making a Great Ruler: Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania -there is nothing their about "Turan tribe"
See http://bookzz.org/dl/955291/028a7d

In Eastern Europe, Karaites are frequently called Karaim, both terms being equal; I prefer to use the Karaite as being more common in English. Karaism as religion is based exclusively on the Torah, rejecting all its commentaries and interpretations, and emphasizes the principles of the Decalogue. In addition to its Judaic origins, Karaism was formed under the strong influence of Islam. As to the liturgy, in Lithuania, it is influenced by Catholicism and consists of psalms and religious cantoes. Liturgical language is Hebrew; however, national tongues are also widely used. Religious holidays are determined according to the Lunar calendar. Summarized from Halina Kobeckaitė, Lietuvos Karaimai (Lithuanian Karaites) (Vilnius: baltos lankos, 1997), 10–31. For the general studies on Karaites, also see Simon Szyszman, Les Karaïtes d’Europe, Acta Universitatis Uppsaliensis: Studia Multiethnica Upsaliensia 7, ed. Harald Runblom (Uppsala: Center d’études multiethniques de l’Université de Upsal, 1989); Ananiasz Zajączkowski, Karaims in Poland: History, Language, Folklore, Science (Warsaw: PWN; Paris: Mouton, 1961).

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:79.109.203.252 to understand that the author of last changes is known from 2012.Неполканов (talk) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I do not see any reference to a "Turan Church" in the article.

In fact the article is clearly about an ethnic group not a religious group. Dunlop's article is available to read online. You appear to have overlooked the disambiguation at the top distinguishing this ethnic group from Karaim and from Karaites. 94.159.177.65 (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * In fact I intended to "Turanian Tribe of Medieval Kyrgyz-Christian origin" claimed by anonim author.
 * The references are about Karaim while in the header is writen that "Not to be confused" with Karaim that is East Euriopenian name for ethnic (not religious) group of Crimean Karaites see the article that already discusses the different version about origin of Crimean Karaites.It is known style of the same author that claims about origin of Crimean Karaites aproving their claims by distorting the meanings of his references .Неполканов (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I can see from your edit history that you have a diligent and strong personal attachments it seems almost solely to Karaim topics, and have likewise diligently assisted whenever you raised a concern about that author you mentioned. Nevertheless, it honestly seems you are a little confused here and definitely over-reacting in your recent edits and accusations.

This article is essentially a summary of Douglas Morton Dunlop's paper on the Kirgizian Karaits of the Genghisid empire -clearly unrelated to the Jewish Karaim religious group (Qaraites) which you are perhaps a little overly concerned with. In fact the clarification and distinction is very welcome! The fact that such similar names have been used for two so different groups invites more disambiguation, rather than obfuscation on the matter.YuHuw (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorting out the topics at this title
Hi guys. I'm an American administrator from Ohio, and have been watching this page for a week. Let's see if we can get it sorted out.

Karait was created as a redirect to Bungarus in June 2008‎. The rationale given for that was: "There's a krait snake in Rikki-Tikki-Tavi called "Karait", people may look up that name (as I did)"

I confirmed that in The Jungle Book/"Rikki-Tikki-Tavi": "a tiny voice said: “Be careful. I am Death!” It was Karait, the dusty brown snakeling". Bungarus § In fiction also discusses this.

So there is one meaning for the title, and this redirect stood for seven years, until on December 31 a "new stub" was created by 31.154.167.98.

On New Year's Day, I find that Bungarus has landed in Category:Articles with redirect hatnotes needing review, because its hatnote now erroneously claims that:
 * "Karait" redirects here. For other meanings, see Karaite.

So I remove the hatnote from Bungarus, and add another hatnote to the new Karait stub:
 * For other meanings, see Karaite.

...and then another:
 * ''Not to be confused with Crimean Karaites.

because, as I said in my edit summary, "I'm confused and unsure if this is a WP:Content fork or not."

I was hoping that you all, as I assume you are much more familiar with the topics than I am, will help clear up my confusion. The dab at Karaim isn't doing a particularly good job of helping to clear it up. I suppose I should now read the section above this, but you guys are ahead of me, and I'm still trying to catch up. Wbm1058 (talk) 00:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a distinction here based on geography; I see one based in Crimea (made recently famous by the Russians taking it back), and another based on "the Turanian Tribe", i.e. the Turan region, which seems somewhat removed from Crimea. What is the relationship between these two, if any? Wbm1058 (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I will try to explain. There two totally fully different ethnic groups :one Kirgiz Mongolian tribal confederation of Khereid, the second  ethno-religious group of Crimean Karaites (called also Karailar and Karaim) living in Eastern Europe.  Every one has different articles in the wikipedia. The discussed article is the third alternative article about the subjects above claiming  that Crimean Karaites  of Lithuanua are relaited to this Mongolian Tribe. This theory  has nothing with references claimed in the article. Part of then are speaking about   [[Khereid]] the others   about Crimean Karaites(see my cite above)
 * In post Soviet Crimea some amateur Crimean Karaites authors claiming the same. They are briefly mentioned on Crimean Karaites page. Any way the place of this stuff not on separate page but on Crimean Karaites page.
 * Similiar editor already tried to vandalize Crimean Karaites page with references fakes and failed . Now it is the similiar try. I ask first of all to prevent anonimious edit of the article because the suspected author has large repetative record of sockpuppeteery Неполканов (talk) 00:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Pity there isn't a Facebook style "like" thumbs up we can use on wiki to show appreciation for other user contributions. Thank you for the background history and introduction Wbm1058.


 * As for me, I am just a wiki reader who likes to make corrections to articles usually on subjects relating to Judaism. I am quite familiar with Karaite Judaism but was always confused by inconsistency and contradictions in writings on the "Karaite" people of Eastern Europe e.g. here. I created an account to join in this discussion because my internet service provider randomly assigns me an IP which changes every few months (usually something like 9_.1__.1__.__ e.g. ) and I was anyway thinking it was probably about time I got an account.


 * About a week ago I followed a disambiguation link which appeared on the Crimean Karaites page to this article. As far as I can tell it leans heavily on one of its sources, a paper by Douglas Morton Dunlop which I found available online here. It seems the same people have been written about under a variety of different names depending on which language the source was originally in. The article does a good job of listing some of these name variations. It also does a good job clarifying that not all groups in Eastern Europe with names which resemble "Karaite" are related to Judaism. That certainly explains a lot of contradictions I have been seeing. Earlier on the 8th of January I saw a video about "Karaites" in East Europe having an Xmas party so checked back on this article to see if it would help me understand the contradiction. I discovered that the article had been deleted and undid what I thought was thoughtless vandalism.


 * Clearly the article is not about the Karaim religious group, but about an ethnic group which had origins in the Church of the East even if they are different religions today.


 * However, I do see what you mean about content fork Wbm1058. The Crimean Karaites definitely clarifies that Crimean Karaites are an ethnic group which has two religions (Karaite Judaism and Christianity) but at the same time presents everything only from the Jewish perspective. *If* Crimean Karaites are just a Crimean branch off of this ethnic "mother" group, it might be that the Crimean Karaites article simply needs re-writing from a more Neutral POV without dwelling at all on one-sided religious bias -and then merged with this one. There is already a section about "Karaim" in Eastern Europe in the Karaite Judaism article anyway here so two articles about the same religious group seems quite redundant. On the other hand this article indicates that in 2002 there were only 671 Crimean Karaites in the world anyway, hardly noteable enough to warrant a separate article of their own. Surely therefore the numbers of Karaits who are practicing Karaims can not be more significant than that to warrant an article of their own separate from Karaite Judaism anyway can they?


 * Be that as it may, an article about the Russian ethnic group might naturally talk about early migrations of Pagan Rus' tribes and early Rus' kingdoms, but an article about Russian Jews would naturally focus more on the Jewish religion and how Jews came to be in a Russian language area. Likewise an article about the Karait ethnic group will naturally focus on the origins of the Karait ethnicity, primitive religion, kingdoms and migrations, while an article about Karaite Jews would naturally focus on the people of that community who claim Jewish heritage instead. Russians are Russians, Russian Jews are Russian Jews, they just share some cultural-historical context. Similarly Karaits are obviously Karaits but Karaite Jews are obviously Karaite Jews and again they would naturally share some historical and cultural context.


 * Definitely all worth discussing.YuHuw (talk) 01:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * @User:Неполканов Khereid is a modern Mongolian language term for a tribal group of modern Mongolians (who descend from Karaits). Two users who were trying to push that agenda appear to have been blocked User:Sczc and User:Toghuchar. YuHuw (talk) 02:01, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Have you look at the Khereid article? It is not about modern language but about medieaval tribe that looks very similiar to some claims of discussed article.Why we need separate article ?/ Неполканов (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The Khereid article is a complete shambles thanks to the nationalistic efforts of those blocked users. YuHuw (talk) 11:01, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * @User:Неполканов You wrote "In post Soviet Crimea some amateur Crimean Karaites authors claiming the same. They are briefly mentioned on Crimean Karaites page." Could you point out these references please? Also you say that Crimean Karaites are also known as Karailar and Karaim, but the former (Crimean Karaites and Karailar) are both ethnic terms, while the latter (Karaim) is a well-known religious designation. It is unhelpful to conflate religious and ethnic topics under one article.YuHuw (talk) 02:15, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read other articles (Khereid,Crimean Karaites,Karaim) before creating new one. In Eastern Europe Karaim word means Crimean Karaite ethnic group,as described in articles about Karaim(really disambig term due to Identity transition of Crimean Karaites in XX century) and Crimean Karaites. In the article about Crimean Karaites their dejudaization is mentioned noting  the  non-Jewish origin theories about that are widely distributed in this ethnic group Crimean Karaites:"Some modern Karaim resist being identified as Jews, emphasizing their Turkic heritage and claiming they are Turkic practitioners of a "Mosaic religion" separate and distinct from Judaism. Miller says that Crimean Karaites did not start claiming a distinct identity apart from the Jewish people before the 19th century, and that such leaders as Avraham Firkovich and Sima Babovich encouraged this position to avoid the strong anti-Semitism of the period. ". I accept possibility to describe this theories in more details in the Crimean Karaite article Неполканов (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)"


 * Certainly much of the Khereid article should be moved to this one especially as the name does not apply to the subject on that page. On the other hand I do not think it would be at all helpful to duplicate any of this material in the Crimean Karaites page which is clearly about a Jewish religious group, not a neutral article about the Karait ethnicity. Especially as I am confused about your claims, first you seemed to be saying that these people are unrelated to Crimean Karaites and now you seem to be saying that they are the same people. :/ I do not believe it is a good idea to cover up the important distinctions which have been revealed. YuHuw (talk) 11:07, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

More sources
Just found this: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/karai Very interesting! YuHuw (talk) 02:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * So, if I understand you correctly, you are not (Special:Contributions/31.154.167.98) who created this article. I don't know if they have edited under other IP addresses or not, or whether they will respond here, as so far they only edited on a couple of days. Wbm1058 (talk) 02:33, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * That is right, I am not 31.154.167.98 if I were to write an article, I would source it better. But according to this website the user is an Orange customer also based in Israel. YuHuw (talk) 02:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile I may suspose that there is realy another author except 31.154.167.98.Also the discussion if we need additional article about descedents of Kerait is legitime. To my opinion the referenses  of this article are not  RS. It worth discussion . But it is fully inapropriate to base the claims of the article, claiming that it s not about Crimean Karaites, on  fake reference  to RS about Crimean Karaites .So I remove such claims from 31.154.167.98's version. Неполканов (talk) 10:18, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree to take on the role as the second author since I have no bias on the subject. Thank you for pointing out that Kerait should be pointed to this article. I find your claim that Douglas Morton Dunlop, Gyula_Németh_(linguist), Encyclopædia Iranica, are not reliable sources frankly incredible and revealing significant POV bias on your part. And although I do think Henry Hoyle Howorth, Johann Reinhold Forster Robert Kerr (writer) are a quite archaic, they certainly can not be considered unreliable. I restored the references that you removed since your edits exhibit too much of your current and quite passionate POV bias. YuHuw (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * While there is nothing in discussed edits about Kirgizian Moongolian Keraites I suspect that other sourses with nothing about Karaim. While above you confirmed that this article is also alternative article about Kerait that it purpose to push again unique to Socpuppetry Master's POV about relation between  Keraite and Lithuanian Karaim by the good known way of RS fakes(approving claims by sources that have nothing with your claims).Неполканов (talk) 11:49, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I think that the "Kerait" issue was pointed-out by you above isn't it?


 * It seems necessary to re-iterate that 671 people in 2002 makes the Crimean Karaites quite a tiny and rather insignificant branch of the Karait people (if indeed they do share the same origins as you sometimes seem to be suggesting then arguing against Неполканов. I would like to know what their situation is since the Russian annexation of Crimean to be honest. The only thing which seems to make the Crimean Karaites noteworthy is their conversion into the Kara'im religious group and the current situation over Crimea. But as you yourself pointed out, Karaite Judaism as well as Christianity are practiced among the Crimean Karaites which by definition means not all Crimean Karaites are Kara'im (which is a religious designation) even though that article presents only a heavy Karaite Judaism POV bias.


 * I think it would help a lot here for you to present your stance one way or the other. So in your opinion, are Crimean Karaites just the Crimean branch of this central Eurasian Karait ethnicity of interest here or are they not? You said above that " "In post Soviet Crimea some amateur Crimean Karaites authors claiming the same. They are briefly mentioned on Crimean Karaites page." but you have not produced these sources as asked yet. You on the other hand seem to say it is not so sometimes, but then seem to say it is so at other times. And I can also see from your edit history that you have been involved in significant polemics arguing Crimean Karaits (an ethnic designation) should not be called Karaim (a religious one). But now you seem to be saying the two words are synonymous (even though clearly not all Kara'im in the world are Crimean Karaites). Some clarification of your position on that opinion would certainly help the discussion. YuHuw (talk) 11:57, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If you really want to understand what happens Lithuanian Karaim please read the following academic publication.But due to you cite fakes I strongly doubt about that. 12:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this I will take a read. In the meantime if you could answer my questions that would be great. YuHuw (talk) 12:10, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * May I ask what the history of the religious group of Kara'im in Lithuania have to do with this now? YuHuw (talk) 12:12, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually I am familiar with this article already thank you. It basically says that in order to survive the 20th century, the religious community of Kara'im in Lithuania looked through the history books and found a chance to claim a Turkic "Karaite" (i.e. Karait) identity which by the end of the century became their traditional truth. It is an interesting theory. who knows without doing extensive DNA testing on the Lithuanian Kara'im whether there is any truth or not to the claim. YuHuw (talk) 12:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * You can see from this article that Lithuanian Karaim see theirselves decedents of Chazars that came from Crimea(so Karaim ethnic group usually called in English is Crimean Karaite even when they leaving in Lithuania ) .They dis not see themselves desedents of Kirgiz Mongolian Keraites(only several amateur Karaim authors in Crimea think so).Both theories are not suppored by scientist.'There is no other Karaites in Lithuania!'  Your youtube reference is zhournalist initiative of  Lithuanian Karaim. Неполканов (talk) 12:23, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I have included your point and this reference in the article to clarify the distinct origins. I hope it satisfies you. YuHuw (talk) 12:32, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive edits
Please do not start an edit war on this article Неполканов. If you have a problem with the citations discuss here. @Wbm1058 your input here would be welcome please. And Неполканов please do not remove any more material/citations before we all have a chance to discuss this. YuHuw (talk) 12:09, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I added another hatnote, in response to your change of the Kerait redirect. And yet the plural Keraits redirects to Qaraei. Too many ethnic and religious groups with similar-sounding names, I think I need a scorecard (i.e., maybe a disambiguation or broad-concept page of some sort) to keep track of them all. Wbm1058 (talk) 15:28, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I also adjusted the hatnote on Karaite Judaism. When you change redirects, you need to check what links to them, and make sure that all the links are correct:
 * Pages that link to "Kerait" – are these linking to the appropriate article? Wbm1058 (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Right now I'm wondering if this page should be re-titled (moved) to Turanian Karaits to further disambiguate and clear up confusion. I'm not sure there is a WP:primary topic for the simple title "Karait". Wbm1058 (talk) 15:44, 9 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Ref too many different articles with similar names, yes I see that too. It is quite irritating. Ref the name change I think best to keep with what has been published in RS, and Douglas Mordon Dunlop is a very reliable and English language source. Ref WP:primary topic at least we know it is as type of people. May I suggest a project? Despite his quite obvious and passionate POV bias, Неполканов does seem to have a lot of knowledge about the tiny Jewish minority of Kara'im who laid a claim to this heritage in the 20th century so I would welcome his participation in a project *IF* he can control his boundaries to stick to Jewish areas. How to advertise for more participants?
 * Like there are many types of English speakers in many parts of the world with many different cultures and many different religions, some having genuine claim to English ancestry and others not, it seems likewise the various remnant groups descended from this ancient relic of the Genghisid Empire are likewise going to have similarities and differences. I can see that the originals were obviously some sort of Turco-Mongol people (Kirgiz according to Dunlop and Horworth) hence the neutral word "Turanian" fits as it is ambiguous in that regard. The interesting thing is that their modern day descendants speak no common language, mainly Kipchak dialects (in former Golden Horde areas) or Persian languages (under the Iranic sphere) or Mongol languages (under the Mongol sphere). Also obviously there is no modern day common religion. YuHuw (talk) 17:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I added this to WikiProject Central Asia. You might want to solicit help on that project page, and perhaps you can find other WikiProjects that would relate to this article. Wbm1058 (talk) 18:12, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

This is just another one of these POV forks of the type that User:Kaz delights in creating.-- Toddy1 (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Your recent reverts of all the discussion which went into this demands explanation please Toddy1. What is going on? Why do you feel it is necessary to obfuscate the issue? YuHuw (talk) 06:42, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * So far three people have tried reverting this article back to its 2008 state of being a redirect page:
 * Неполканов 23:06, 7 January 2016, with the edit summary: "Back to version of 2008 -the "references " of last changes are about Crimean Karaites-see http://bookzz.org/book/955291/03b3b4-also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigation"
 * Toddy1 00:23, 10 January 2016, with the edit summary: "revert the POV fork introduced by Kaz's new sock"
 * IP editor 202.9.40.25, 17:07, 11 January 2016,, with the edit summary: "revertiing vandalism by blocker user kaz, see Talk:Khereid. 'Karait" was a redirect page"
 * Those are three separate editors, and it is always the same editor who reverts back. It does not look like consensus for this page being an article instead of a redirect page.--  Toddy1 (talk) 08:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Your complaints have been discussed at length here On the other hand you and your IP alliance are only supporting the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Ancientsteppe and so far not engaged in discussion of Douglas Morton Dunlop's work despite having been requested many times. You instead refer to me as Kaz over and over again (which is quite abusive) accusing me of vandalism while it is you and your anon IP alliance who are reverting our team's Wbm1058, dab, Неполканов efforts (please correct me is I am wrong. I would like to discuss with you but you only attack me. I wish we could just edit this encyclopedia peacefully together, but you have not even explained what your issues with the content are yet. What danger does this article present to your current world view? YuHuw (talk) 09:34, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I will now visit this sock-puppet investigation you have raised. YuHuw (talk) 09:34, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Merge
This article was moved to Keraites by dab, please feel free to continue any discussion on this article at Talk:Keraites. YuHuw (talk) 11:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)