Talk:Karaite Folk

Contested deletion
This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because... (your reason here)


 * Oppose Yes this article is partially a duplicate of Crimean Karaits. But please note the size of the two articles. While the size of this article is over 50 kbytes, the size of the other article is less than 25 kbytes. That means that deleting Karaite Folk will result in loss of information. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:27, 10 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose At first I too thought this was partly a duplicate of into at the Crimean Karaites page, but on closer inspection one can discover that the two subjects are significantly distinct. In contrast however, the Crimean Karaites article, may indeed need deletion for notability reasons (there are only 80 Crimean Karaites in the world) and for being significantly misleading and or off-topic (The Crimean Karaites article gives the impression that the religion of the Crimean Karaites is a form of Judaism, but feast of harvest ‘Oraq Toyu’ (‘The Sickle Festival’) has nothing to do with any form of Judaism) . I don't think these two articles can even be compared.Budo (talk) 12:02, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * @budo please check "Karaites-turks calendar" to assure that intention is to Jewish Sukkot-"ОРАХ ТОЮ (Суккот)".Неполканов (talk) 20:53, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Support the deletion .The page is almost identical to rejected and discussed Kaz's version of Crimean Karaites,defined in discussion like "completely different topic". This current version was introduced by unacceptable disinformation(see the topic below). The excepted behavior is to supply the proper information with RS to discussed and accepted,based on RS version  instead  creating of alternative version with "completely different topic". Неполканов (talk) 20:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

This is disinformation .Suggest to review deletion withdraw
The base of this page cannot be "Independently corroborated brief summary of information from the 6 volume Karaite Folk Encyclopedia", because it includes a lot of references that I have add personally (10,11,12,13,14,15,16,23,28,33)to Crimean Karaites page. Actually the origin page is one of Kaz's versions of Crimean Karaites. He had left my references fully distorting their meaning.You can see some of these references on current page of Crimean Karaites .He probably has added the list of other references from Russian page or some additional places ,that in spite of impression of referenced article actually have no connection with his conclusions. If we will start merging of this page with Crimean Karaites we will got the October headache back,of the article that looks like "Modern Karaylar  claim "A"... while historical documents say "not A". Actually some Kaz's ideas like "Only clergymen must be circumcised and keep the Torah" are not claimed by any Karaylar. Due to his issue with "Law of Return" I am not sure that Kaz is Karaim at all. See the dialog with him on my talk page. It  is not clear to me why   Budo cooperates with this blocked user. Неполканов (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I know there was some sort of controversey surrounding User:Kas himself and his ethnicity, but I think that whatever personal issues there may be between your group and Kaz have nothing to do with the subject of this article and are irrelevant to the facts. We have our pound of flesh in that User:Kaz has been blocked for disruptive editing. But let's just accept when we were wrong and move on now. I think it is high time to let go of this bone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Budo (talk • contribs) 12:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Let's talk Facts
I have spent the past month painstakingly trying to find out why there is so much opposition to modern research on this topic and why some editors were keen to re-gurgitate outdated poorly re-searched references by sloppy scholars who confused Karaite Folk and Karaite Jews with each other. So I acquired a copy of the Karaite Folk Encyclopedia the very pages of volume 2 confirmed that the Karaite Folk are believers in Moses, Jesus Christ, and Mahomed in a similar vein to Ananism who have come from a shamanic origin. Whatever personal vendettas editors have against Polkanov and the World Association of Karaites, , I suggest it is time to leave personal feelings out of writing encyclopedic articles. I don't think Wikipedia is the place to run personal political campaigns against one's enemies.

If anything this article takes an extremely Judeo-centric POV the Karaite Folk Encyclopedia (which is huge and which I am still only at the start with) presents things in a much more Turkic light. Budo (talk) 12:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not clear why you need "painstaking" efforts to understand the reason of modern Crimean Karaites publications criticism ,including Karaite Folk Encyclopedia. You got the relevant links month ago on Crimean Karaites talk page .(e.g "Jews or Turks.New elements in Karaims and Krypchaks identity in modern Crimea" )
 * Probably the problem is that you have difficulties to understand not only Russian,but also English e.g claiming that "there are only 80 Crimean Karaites in the world",while your source says that Karaylar "World" Association " event ... is to be attended by about 80 people" only . You also misunderstand between "Not-Polkanov" and Anti-Polkanov .I never met this great Russian speaking geologist that never was historian.You also invited to see the Yury Polkanov's biography of on Russian wikipedia,regarding his ethnic origin. Due to  difficulties and prejudices  above it is easier for you to take rejected Kaz's page instead of selective integrating Karaite Folk Encyclopedia information in  accepted version of Crimean Karaites article.In you comments  you have misinformed the administrator   claiming that this page is "Independently corroborated brief summary of information from the 6 volume Karaite Folk Encyclopedia. " This disinformation is unacceptable.Неполканов (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Additional note regarding the quality of sources you are using.
 * According the link you posted (http://www.cnewa.org/mag-images/magimages-35-2/0309_crimea/crimea09.html) "the tombstone is inscribed in Karaite language using Hebrew Letters".In fact it is pure Hebrew.You cannot assure it ,because you did not know any one of Karaite sources languages(Russian,Hebrew, and Karaim)  and possible even do not try to understand them.

Неполканов (talk) 22:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

@Nepolkanov it was painstaking because, first of all, indeed you are correct, I am not a linguist and translating Russian is difficult to me. But mostly it was painstaking because it was difficult to find info on the subject because most of the terms promoted on the Crimean Karaites page are inappropriate for this Folk topic. If I may offer a friendly suggestion, I don't think you are establishing a good pattern of behaviour for yourself here by attacking the abilities of anyone who posts content you disagree with. My English abilities are not too bad (being a native English speaker) but I suggest that perhaps it might be helpful for you to read the title of the article you quoted again. It is not about the "World Association" it is about the Crimean Karaites (Krymkaraylar). I do think that your suggestion of including a reference concerning the Law of Return would be a good one. If you can find a reliable source to quote on that issue I think it could be inserted into the Identity section of the article. Best wishes. Budo (talk) 14:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I am trying to keep friendly discussion,but one of the reasons of this dis-informative mess  that you do not study your  stuff before posting it
 * You misunderstand between Crimean Karaites living in Crimea, with Crimean Karaites(Karaim) over the world ignoring the fact that all Karaylar consider their origin from Crimea,so Crimean Karaites is their one of their self names, see details at Crimean Karaites page.
 * According two of your sources there are 800 Karaim in the Crimea - one says About 800 remain in the Crimea, where in the city of Yevpatoria they maintain two synagogues"],the second says: "Ныне в Крыму осталось около 800 караев".But you insisted that the number of Crimean Caraites in the world  is 80  misunderstanding the English sentence "This year’s festival will be attended by about 80 people"
 * Also you are not familiar with the fact that Crimea is a part of Ukraine, so it is no sense to put both numbers on the same statistics.


 * So in order to save editors time due to your poor familiarity with the subject please prevent from  changing  the Crimean Karaites article drastically before proper discussion. Неполканов (talk) 20:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

@Неполканов Although you wrote "you do not study your stuff before posting it" I wish to reassure you that I have taken to this fascinating subject with quite some interest over the past few months. I have even acquired the Karaite Folk Encyclopedia. It does not need too long to get one's head around the essentials. Even if I do not know about the topic very well, the references used are very clear and speak for themselves. Whenever there is a claim in an article which does not have a reference, it is possible for another editor to ask for a citation. When a reference is used for a claim e.g. that there are 200 Criimean Karaites in Russia, but the reference does not mention Crimean Karaites at all, then it is normal to remove the claim and the misused reference from the article. Budo (talk) 12:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
I don't see anything of value or relevance in the Crimean Karaites article which could be included here. Budo (talk) 12:34, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Combine but Keep the Crimean Karaites Article
I think there should be a main Karaite article titled Karaites that covers all Karaite peoples. Much like the Tatars article. Keep the Crimean Karaites article and give the Crimean Karaites a short section in the main Karaites article with a link to the Crimean Karaites article. Kepper66 (talk) 12:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Always good to welcome a newbie to this sort of topic. I myself was a complete noob concerning this area only a few months ago like you too. However, a crash course at the library has taught me that Karaite Folk and Karaite Jews only accidentally share the same adjective. Karaite Jews claim their adjective derives from a Hebrew word meaning "Read", while Karaite Folk claim they split from the Persian Church in 604AD and that their adjective derives from a Turkic word meaning "Black". In fact the two groups are completely antithetical towards each other. The hostility is mainly because Karaite Folk are believers in Jesus Christ and Mahomed (according to the Karaite Folk encyclopedia 1996 volume 2), but Karaite Jews reject both these religious figures (although I suspect the real issue is a dog-fight over Anan ben David who Karaite Jews traditionally claim as their founder but who Karaite Folk claim was a convert to their Church along with Numan ibn Thabit). Hence Karaites has to remain a disambiguation page. What might be useful is a separate article discussing the theory that Karaite Folk are not true Ananites but apostate Karaite Jews. It would be nice to see some real academic sources on that quesiton rather than proponents of the theory simply peppering all the Karaite articles with unsourced/unreferenced statements as if it were a universally accepted fact. Budo (talk) 13:50, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I would like to insist you again(the third time) to translate with Google the Head of Crimean Staff Museum  A. Malgyn  article "Jews or Turks.New elements in Karaims and Krypchaks identity in modern Crimea", to understand the last twenty years evolution of Crimean Karaites from Hebrew "Readers" to turcic "Blacks".Неполканов (talk) 20:46, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think a self-published article by a museum staff is a reliable source.Budo (talk) 12:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * @Budo In spite of you strongest blinding prejudice  please study  carefully the following facts:
 * Crimean Republican Museum  is not self-managed private museum but the State professional scientific organization with 120  years history and rich exposition. A. Malgyn is professional historian with neutral POV on Crimean Karaites origin.
 * From the other side Karaite Folk encyclopedia is self publish private initiative of M.S Sarach French Cristian,Crimean Karaite origin. The edition stopped immediately after his death.The encyclopedia based widely on Holocaust publications(see Kaz's  cites about the Karaite religion on  your  Kaz's  page). Some of the authors are not historians at all, while some historian authors of the   encyclopedia had to write articles contradicting their own opinion. Неполканов (talk) 07:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)