Talk:Karaite Judaism/Archive 2

Karaims page
There's a page at Karaims that looks to be covering the same material. Can someone knowledgeable merge that information into this article, and then redirect Karaims to here? --Delirium 19:08, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

Karaims (Qaraylars) are not the same as Karaites. They have origins as Karaites, but they have "evolved" into a unique group of their own, with their own language, culture and religious practice and are considered an ethnic group of their own. Merging Karaites (Qara'iym) and Karaim (Qaraylars) would be a diservice to both groups and would only serve to confuse people more than they already are about the difference of the two.

Looks good so far
Hi. The merge looks just ok. In addition, I think that someone ought to write anew this whole article in good English, paying attention to its cohesion and value of information further under titles like 'Spiritual Origin of Karaims(Karaites?)as a belief, History and geography of Karaite societies and enclaves, Recent developments in Karaism, (including proper subtitles of each one, of course.)--BIR 06:26, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Where did the significant Karaites section go?
Yoshiah, why did you delete the sections on significant Karaites? Jayjg 02:01, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It wasn't deleted, articles were created (if they didn't exist already) because I've started to make articles for many important Karaites in Jewish History, for example Japeth ben Ali. It would be impractical to cover each one within the KJ article, but I did make a List of Important Karaites if anyone has trouble finding them.--Josiah 02:40, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Their commentarites affected the sage?
"Their commentaries significantly affected the views of Rabbinic Sages, such as Ibn Ezra and Rashbam, who quoted them, to the point that some accused them of being sympathetic of Karaism. The influence of Japeth ben Ali on Ibn Ezra produced a myth which says that he was his student."

There are many un-supported claims in this paragraph. Could you provide some evidence? How do we know their views influence Ibn Ezra and Rashbam? Who accused them of being sympathetic to Karaism? Who said Ibn Ezra was Japeth ben Ali's student? Jayjg 20:06, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The idea that Ibn Ezra was a student of Yefet ben Ali (Japeth ben Ali) is a legend amongst some karaites. Evidence of Ibn Ezra being influenced by karaites are found in his commentaries, because he quotes various karaite sages in them. For example, Ibn Ezra quotes Yeshua ben Yehuda's view on Exodus 6:2 and corrects it, though other Rabbinical Sages shared Yeshua's view. VBM-Torah has an article which shows this instance.


 * In 1942, the Dropsie College for Hebrew and Cognate Learning published Yefet ben Ali's commentary on the book of Hosea (with notes and information about Yefet ben Ali in English, and his commentary in Arabic and Hebrew). In the preface, it says "Indeed, one is almost tempted to believe that there would be little left of Ibn Ezra and Kimhi if we were to discared from their respective bible commentaries what was earlier uttered by their eminent forrunner, the now relatively obscure and forgotten Yefet." This could not have been written from Karaite influence, as there were no American Karaites at that time (and probably none that could speak English, as well).


 * In the chapter of the previously mentioned book dedicated to examining Yefet ben Ali's influence on Ibn Ezra, the first sentence says "Ibn Ezra cites Yefet more frequently than any other exegete. In his commentary on the Minor Prophets, Ibn Ezra quotes Yefet fourty-four times whereas he mentions Sa'adyah Gaon only five times." Josiah 20:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * And yet "The great exegete Abraham Ibn Ezra polemicizes against numerous Karaite legal positions and records his disputations with the sectarians (for example, in commenting on Leviticus 7: 20)." "In spite of his commitment to the plain meaning of the Bibilcal text, Ibn Ezra used his commentaries to defend the rabbinic oral tradition against its detractors from the Karaite movement (the Jewish "fundamentalist" group that rejected Talmudic tradition in favour of exclusive reliance on the Bible), making extensive use of the teachings of Rabbi Sa'adia Ga'on"  Jayjg 20:54, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, your article reads: "And although the Andalusian Rabbanites seem to be implacable foes of the sectarians, Ibn Ezra, at least, regularly cites the commentaries of Japheth ben Eli and Yeshu'ah ben Judah in non-polemical contexts; their philological, rationalistic approach clearly appealed to him." On another page, it is stated that "R.Y. (Singer) Zer [...] argues that Ibn Ezra considered each instance individually on its merits, at times rejecting and at times accepting the Karaite interpretations."


 * For Rashbam, the only evidence I have on hand is that the shared the karative view on tefillin when the verses are interepereted according to p'shat. I'm not sure which persons criticized them as possibly being sympathetic to Karaite Judaim, but I can research that if you'd like.--Josiah 20:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Rashbam still wore tefillin, and it would make sense to actually state which people claim Karaite views influenced him, or that he sympathized with Karaites. Jayjg 20:46, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying that he sympathized with Karaites. When I discussed this on the Jews for Judaism forums, I was told that he interpereted the p'shat in the same way karaites do, but defended the donning of tefillin under a d'rash interperetation.--Josiah 21:50, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Russian Karaites
Jayjg,

If you don't want to accept what Russian Karaites say about their history, that's fine, but I clearly changed it to "Russian Karaites relate that..." for your satisfaction. Before I had known about the former karaim page, it had the exact same information. Obviously I didn't conjure the "theory" up out of thin air, or it wouldn't have been there. It is no more a "speculation" then the idea that Jews denied being such during the Holocaust, or other periods of persecution. The fact that marriages between Rabbanites and Karaites continued in Russia should be proof enough.--Josiah 19:28, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Where do Russian Karaites say this? Jayjg 20:39, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * There aren't any Russian Karaite pages on the web as of now. I had begun developing one for one of their Hakhams, but he fell ill and is just now starting to resume normal life. I can, however, reproduce discussions from our discussion groups.--Josiah 21:09, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a place for original research; see No original research. If someone has already published the theories you are promoting, then please go ahead and cite them here. And no, discussions on bulletin boards do not constitute publication. Jayjg 21:50, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, you're forcing me to get off my butt and scour the net for evidence to your liking. I found some: "In order to avoid the disabilities imposed upon Rabbinite Jews, the Karaites of Russia attempted to prove that they were guiltless of the execution of Jesus because they were descended from the Lost Ten Tribes and had been settled in the Crimea since the time of Shalmaneser (seventh century B.C.). In particular Abraham Firkovich edited a number of forgeries of inscriptions on tombstones and manuscripts to prove the early date of their settlement in the Crimea. The argument was effective with the Russian government in 1795, when they were exempted from the double taxation imposed upon the Rabbinites, and in 1828, when it obtained for them exemption from military service."--Josiah 23:28, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it still doesn't prove the claim you are making, that they came to believe these stories, and forgot their true origins! Where is the proof for that? Jayjg 02:47, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Is that what you've been objecting to? Oy... This is not something that happened universally, but I believe that should be fairly easy to find on the web. I'll go look it up now.--Josiah 00:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Here's one from the link you added "The Russian Karaites, in spite of their small numbers, are mentally alert, produce literature in Russian, but also poems in Karaimsk. Mostly they are still guided by Firkovich's theories that they are not Jews, but a few are looking for new religious roots."--Josiah 00:54, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, then shouldn't the article at least directly refer to Firkovich and his activities, rather than being broad and vague as it is now? Jayjg 14:33, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you view it as "vague", but I'll add a mention of him.--Josiah 01:12, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Karaites often practice full prostration during prayers
"Karaites often practice full prostration during prayers" - what does this mean? Jayjg 20:35, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * See --Josiah 22:48, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Did this help, Jayjg?--Josiah 00:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Yep, as my edits showed. "Full prostration" in my view really means lying face down on the floor, arms and legs outstretched, but the picture makes it moot. Jayjg 14:35, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Q 4 Neira
Why split it up into so many sections when most have only one paragraph?--Josiah 18:25, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Because now every section deals with one issue only, and now we can find what we are asking for more easily.--Neria 04:57, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Josiah, about NPOV
Josiah, why do you think that what I add is not Neutral?

If something is a fact it cannot be not neutral.

The artical, as it is now, don't explain WHY do Karaites don't Accept the Oral Law. It is one of the most important things to write about in an artical about the karaism.

I think that the artical should have paragraph which explain 'why do Karaites don't Accept the Oral Law', like in the Hebrew wikipedia.

BTW, look at the artical about the karaism in the hebrew wikipedia. it is the longest artical there and on of the featured articles. --Neria 23:51, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Why is the fact that it is not mentioned in the Tanakh relevant? Jayjg 00:28, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It is one of the most important things to mention. Because if we will not explain why do kataites do as they are doing there would a lack of infomation. Karites don't accept the oral law not because they just don't want to. There are reasons for that. --Neria 16:11, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I changed it because others do believe it is mentioned in the Tanakh. If you wrote "Karaites do not accept the Oral Law because they do not believe it to be mentioned in the Tanakh." it would be ok.--Josiah 00:48, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It is a fact.
 * You can't find the words "TORA SBAL PE" - "Oral law" in the Tanakh, it is not mentioned.
 * There are more reasons and it is important to mention them, what karaites say. --Neria 16:11, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Why is the fact that this specific phrase is not found in the Torah relevant? Jayjg 18:57, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Because the point of this artical is to explain things about karaism. One of the most important things is WHY karaites don't believe in the oral law. --Neria 03:29, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The exact phrase is not found, but there are many who believe other things refer to it.--Josiah 19:54, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It is not important what other believe. This articale is about karaite judaism and should explain what karaite think and say.
 * It is written in the Hebrew Wikipedia, look at it. --Neria 03:29, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't use the right word (explicitly) when I have written it, but who believes it is explicitly mentioned?

It is a fact it is not explicitly mentioned.

Some people use MIDRASH and say that according to that it is mentioned in the Tanakh but MIDRASH is "to say something else in the same words" so it cannot be explicitly mentioned. Even those people don't say it is mentioned explicitly. --Neria 06:43, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Orthodoxy believes it to explicitly mentioned in Devarim 12:21 when it says "as i have commanded you".Josiah 16:53, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * As long as I know Orthodoxy don't say it to explicitly mentioned in Devarim 12:21 when it says "as i have commanded you" it is just one of there profs of the Oral Law like "VEHATOROT" - "the torahs". --Neria 00:29, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Copyedit: Crimean Karaites
The first sentence of this paragraph doesn't make sense. I'm wondering if someone can help clean it up. --Viriditas 10:18, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I didn't really look at it closely when the karaim page was merged with this one.--Josiah 15:01, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)