Talk:Karen Carpenter/Archive 1

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment

Basically a B.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 20:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
wow this page needs fleshing out a bit!

Expanding "Karen Carpenter"
I'm glad we're starting to expand this page. If you know anything about "Make Your Own Kind Of Music", you can edit that page as well. The Obento Musubi 21:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Remember to sign your name with four tildes.

Confusion about cause of Karen's Death
The article states that Karen's death was "widely touted as being caused by anorexia nervosa". The coroner stated that Karen's death was caused by: "Complications caused by anorexia nervosa". Karen's problems with anorexia nervosa, (and maybe bulimia), probably started around 1974 or 1975. Karen took large amounts of thyroid medication, (even though her thyroid was normal), to speed up her heart. She took excessive numbers of laxatives. She starved herself and she exercised constantly. In 1982, she was fed with a feeding tube which put on several pounds of weight on her body almost overnight. By February 1983, she had done too much internal damage to her body from several years of eating disorder for her to survive any longer. It must be remembered it is on Feb. 4, 1983 that most of the world learns about anorexia nervosa and bulimia for the first time. It is terrible to be the individual whose death brings world-wide attention to an illness that almost nobody knew anything about prior to their death. It seems to me the difference between stating Karen died directly from anorexia nervosa, or indirectly from anorexia nervosa, is really "6 to 1, or half-dozen to the other". Karen's parents lived to be senior citizens. Richard is still alive. The reason Karen died at 32 years, 11 months is because of her 8 to 9 years struggle with anorexia nervosa.204.80.61.10 15:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk


 * I've tagged that section with a neutrality dispute. It's widely cited that she died from anorexia. Some person's random music page is not really "proof" that she died otherwise. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 05:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Need to remove the "recovering" reference
The article's explaination of her cause of death strikes me as a bit of skewed POV - apparently quoting the 1990s documentary...

...eventually died from complications related to "recovering" from the illness...

Even the "official" web biography is straight-forward:

Although she was rushed to the hospital, she was pronounced dead of a heart attack soon afterward – a side effect of her long battle with her illness. [bio]

Samatva (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Biased
"Sometimes referred to as the girl next door by the media, Karen Carpenter is considered by some to be one of the most important American female popular vocalists of the 20th century."

Sorry, but this is totally unencyclopedic and fannish. Algabal 07:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As is "She is considered by many people to be the greatest vocalist of all time."

Bullshit... Turn off the garbage they play on the radio today, and listen to this woman's voice. She outsang everyone... As such, I've reworded that sentence a little differently... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.39.173.71 (talk) 08:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Amen to the above poster...KC outshines much of the trash on the radio today...but, unfortunately, without citation, statements like that are extremely biased. Just because you and I (and a couple million others) adore the lady's music, doesn't mean anything to this encyclopedia, without a citation. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. If you look at almost any poll on the internet of the greatest female singers of all-time, Karen Carpenter, generally is listed and is ranked fairly high. She is without a doubt one of the most important American female popular vocalists of the 20th century. Take a look at how many people site her as an influence or a favorite. Alice Cooper, Madonna, k.d. lang, Gwen Stefani, Chrissie Hynde, Sonic Youth, Bjork are just a few. It is true she is considered to be the "Greatest Female Singer of All-time" by about 2 or 3 million people around the world. That is not fan bias, that is a fact. Rick Henry --RickHenry (talk) 08:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Overboard on "Citations Needed"
There are "Citations Needed" all over the article on Karen Carpenter. Almost all of the statements are supported by reading Ray Coleman's "The Carpenters The Untold Story". Many of them have been metioned in documentaries on Karen and Richard. It seems to me that putting "Citation Needed" on the statement that Karen described Bora Bora as "boring, boring" (Ray Coleman page 284) is an example of nitpicking to the extreme. Whoever flooded the article with "Citations Needed" needs to ask themselves are they really necessary? Any article on any person or object that is overwhelmed with references at the bottom of the page is nonsence. Especially when it's basically the same reference source. Does the Karen Carpenter article really need 8 (eight) references to different pages in Ray Coleman's book at the bottom of the article? 74.76.84.212 00:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk
 * Although I did not add them, I fear this type of commentary is a bit uncivil. Please tone down your talk on talk pages. -- K u k i ni  hablame aqui 00:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks much! -- K u k i ni  hablame aqui 00:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Now there are two "Citations needed" on the statements that Agnes Carpenter dominated Karen and favored her brother Richard. One for each sentence! Those facts have been stated over and over again in books, the made-for-tv movie, and documentaries on Karen Carpenter. There is no need to have so many "Citation Needed" in this article. The reference part of the article is one page in Ray Coleman's book after another.204.80.61.110 17:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Picture
This article needs a picture. This is pretty obvious, but I thought I would mention it in case someone has one that is legal to post. Diablomarcus 17:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I added a picture of Karen to the userbox. It's a picture of her probably before a concert or at a sound check from 1971. Karen Carpenter&#39;s Biggest Fan 02:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Why are the pictures for 'Karen Carpenter,' 'Richard Carpenter,' and 'The Carpenters' the same? Can someone post legal pictures for each separate article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.229.218.116 (talk) 02:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, someone needs to post a picture of Karen by herself for this article. Maybe one of her from the solo sessions would be fitting. --RickHenry (talk) 08:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * We have no more ability to conjure up such an image than you do. If you can find a freely-licensed image that would be more suitable, by all means upload it.  Powers T 12:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Why was the bootlegs paragraph removed?
There is an entire page at Wikipedia that lists many real, and fake, Beatles bootleg songs. Just put in "Beatles bootlegs" in the search block to find it. Since it's alright with Wikipedia to list Beatles bootlegs song; why was the paragraph listing the nine Karen Carpenter bootleg songs removed. They can be found on the internet. Grant Guerrero's Karen Carpenter solo album webpage is a reliable reference. They can be purchased through sites such as E-bay. These nine songs will never get released on an "Offical" Carpenters CD-Richard Carpenter has made that clear over and over again. The only way to hear them is to obtain them by other means.

Why is it okay to list Beatles bootlegs songs at Wikipedia, but, not Karen Carpenter bootleg songs?204.80.61.110 14:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Here is the list of the 9 "outake songs" that Karen recorded from 1979 to 1989. I wonder how long this will be around before someone deletes it, as if they never existed. 1)I do it for your love. 2) It's really you. 3)Jimmy Mack. 4)Love making love to you. 5)Truly you. 6)Don't try to win me back. 7)Something's missing. 8)Keep my lovelight burning. 9)Midnight. The attempt to deny that Karen recorded these 9 songs is almost as bad as the attempt to deny between 1980 and 1996 that she recorded a solo album.204.80.61.110 (talk) 20:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)Bennett Turk

First Album Title?
This article lists the Carpenters' first album as Ticket To Ride. Is that right? I thought that was just the single. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.202.56.224 (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The single "Ticket to Ride" was from their album "Ticket to Ride," originally entitled "Offering." I can understand your confusion, because the CD was pulled and discontinued about seven months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Obento Musubi (talk • contribs) 02:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's a link to "Ticket to Ride (album)". This might explain better why "Offering" was later renamed "Ticket to Ride".204.80.61.110 (talk) 14:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Funeral
"Carpenter's estranged husband Tom attended her funeral, where he took off his wedding ring and threw it into the casket". Is it known what the symbolism of this gesture was? The current phrasing doesn't really make it clear. 89.240.143.217 22:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * several times recently an anonymous editor has replaced threw' with 'put' or laid'. clearly 'threw reflects badly on Tom but should this be a consideration? I think not, I have just reverted another of these changes. What do other editors think? CanOfWorms (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What does the reference say (I don't have it)? If it says "threw" then that it what the entry should say, right?  Hondo77 (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC) Yes I agree but I don't have the book either. None of the recent changes has been accompanied by any justification or explanation so I think that for the present,  we should stick with 'threw' which has been in the article for months. CanOfWorms (talk) 14:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The gesture meant he was ticked off. Most people either continue to wear their rings or place them in the casket. They do not throw them in with the deceased. Burris did not see Karen from October 1981 to February 1983, although they did talk on the phone. People who overheard their conversation said Karen was crying while talking to Burris. Karen died on the day she was to sign her divorce papers. After she died, most of Burris's goods were repossed and he had to live with his son, (from a previous marriage that ended in divorce). People who meet and get married in a few months, are probably going to have problems in their marriage, because they do not know each other well enough.  Also, Karen ran into marriage after her solo album was declared "Unreleasable" by Herb Albert.  She was ready to marry almost anyone who meet her "list" of requirements for a husband.204.80.61.110 (talk) 17:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk


 * Thanks for this. 84.13.106.5 17:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

What happened to two sentences on the lists paragraph?
Why did anyone remove the sentences that said: (A) According to the E! Entertainment Television, Karen's death from anorexia nervosa was the 29th most shocking event in Hollywood history, and (B) Karen's death from anorexia nevosa was the third rated story in the history of Entertainment Tonight. Those sentences did have reference links. I feel, and I am sure others do as well, that E! and Entertainment Tonight are just as highly regarded as Playboy, VH1, and Rolling Stone Magazine. Karen was the First famous person to die from the effects of anorexia nervosa. Her death brought world-wide attention to an illness that was mostly unknown to the general public, (execpt for a few doctors), for over a hundred years. Lists that metion the fact that Karen made eating disorders infamous to the entire world are almost as important as lists that bring out the fact she was a drummer/singer.204.80.61.110 (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)Bennett Turk

The sentences that were removed didn't belong in the article,that is why they were removed. I will remove them again if inserted in the article,though I was not the one who removed them originally. If those sentences are added to the article then ANY television show that said anything similar would have to be added also,and it would add to much to the article. Besides that,Entertainment Tonight isn't exactly ABC news or the like is it? And the Playboy bit is just ridiculous.--99.177.250.140 (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

No, Playboy Magazine is highly respected as far their articles regarding music are concerned and has been for decades. The fact that their readers voted Karen the best Rock Drummer in 1975, says a great deal about a woman being voted for in a profession normally associated with men. A woman being voted for as the best Rock and Roll Drummer in 1975 was very ground-breaking.204.80.61.110 (talk) 13:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Where is the citation or reference for this?
At the height of her illness, Karen was taking ten times the normal daily dose of thyroid replacement medication (equivalent to 1 milligram, as opposed to the normal 100 microgram dose), in order to speed up her metabolism.

I don't see a source for this so I am going to take it out. This is just one of many claims that don't have a source.--99.177.250.140 (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, there might be sources for that. I found one ("Pittsburgh Stage and Screen Examiner" January 31, 2010 on the Examiner newspaper website) though I'm not sure if it should be considered an article in the Examiner newspaper (reliable source) or a blog on their site (not reliable source) (maybe the fact that the URL for the article is blacklisted by WP should tell me something).  Numerous websites mention either "ten times the normal dose" or "dozens of thyroid pills" but it's hard to pick out ones that might count as reliable sources.  I've put back in a mention of the thyroid pills without specifying the dose, with a source. -- Why Not A Duck 01:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The source is "The Carpenters: The Untold Story" by Ray Coleman and Dr. Steven Levenkron, author of the 1978 book "The Best Little Girl in the World", which was the basis for a made-for-tv movie in 1981. Dr. Levenkron who treated Karen Carpenter in 1981 told the Ray Coleman, that Karen was taking the thyroid medicine (Karen had a healthy thyroid, she wanted to speed up her metabolism) and he showed the bottle to Mr. Coleman as proof. Dr. Levenkron keeps the bottle (with the pills) in his desk to remind him of the extent some patients with an eating disorder will go to in order to stay thin. The thyroid medicine given to Karen was ten times the normal dose given to person with bad thyroid.  The medicine that Karen was taking was enough to kill her if she had taken every pill in the bottle as instructed on it's label.  She took took some of the pills in the bottle-I don't known the exact amount-but, there were enough left over to show Ray Coleman.204.80.61.110 (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)Bennett Turk