Talk:Karen Pence

Rationale for original creation

 * Created article.  Either a great many people will want to know who she is over the next few days, and a journalistic micro-industry will produce multiple profiles about her; or - if someone else is nominated - it will be appropriate to redirect her name and the sources to the "personal life" section on the Mike Pence page.  Note, however, that during the course of this year's campaign, pages were created and kept for all of the wives of major candidates. Note also that WP:INHERIT explicitly states: "Individuals in close, personal relationships with famous people (including politicians) can have an independent article even if they are known solely for such a relationship, but only if they pass WP:GNG."  It does not take a particularly accurate CRYSTAL BALL to know that, as with Todd Palin, sources sufficient to pass WP:GNG will follow a VP nomination; or, if there is no nomination, we can redirect.  And do note that the article is based on RS that already exist.   Users, however, will want the info on this page if there is a nomination.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:44, 15 July 2016 (UTC)


 * User:E.M.Gregory your assumption is not always true. Many spouses of losing major party Vice Presidential candidates do not have their own pages. For recent examples look for the spouses of Paul Ryan, Jack Kemp, and Lloyd Bentsen. Of course winning spouses have become Second Lady and all of them have articles. 2600:1001:B12D:4697:6175:88AC:53FD:451F (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note, however, that I did not assert that all spouses of candidates for V.P. necessarily have articles, but, rather that sources will exist to create such an article because "a journalistic micro-industry will produce multiple profiles" that will carry her past the notability guidelines.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You are right about the profiles, but it was the same situation 4 years ago and it didn't result in a page for Janna Ryan (attorney). 2600:1001:B12D:4697:6175:88AC:53FD:451F (talk) 01:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Although I don't really have an opinion regarding this article, I think the question of whether the spouses of vice presidential nominees are notable enough to have their article depends on whether they would have been considered notable prior to their spouse's selection as a vice presidential nominee. For example, I originally created the article on Anne Holton, the wife of the 2016 Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine back in December, 2007 in part due to Holton's career independent of her husband, and the fact the she is one of only a few people to be the spouse of one governor, and the child of another governor.--TommyBoy (talk) 21:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Perfectly reasonable assumption, but WP:INHERIT makes it clear that an article can exist "even if they are known solely for such a relationship". This covers individuals like Jeanette Dousdebes Rubio where she has no career except being a politician's wife, and Michael Haley (South Carolina), who has a job about which there would be no coverage if his wife wasn't Governor.  The standard for keeping is GNG.  The point is having a guideline is that when a spouse accumulates enough profiles, interviews, coverage to pass GNG, s/he passes, even though they have no notability if the marriage (this also applies to others, relatives and even, say, a nanny, provided multiple reliable publications publish in-depth coverage.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:25, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It would help if this page was expanded to include what she has done as First Lady of Indiana. 2600:1001:B12D:4697:6175:88AC:53FD:451F (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"Legal Actions" Section is Irrelevant
The section titled "Legal Actions" that appears on this page as of 7/19/16 seems completely irrelevant to the subject of the article. I am not an experienced Wikipedia editor, so I hesitate to delete it. Is there a way to tag it for review?

Edit: After reading some documentation, I've added a cleanup tag to the top of the page.

Bradford412 (talk) 04:34, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Removed it.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2016
Remove the word "presumptive" before "vice presidential candidate." 96.255.35.181 (talk) 02:44, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Done. Indyguy (talk) 04:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Vice-presidential running mate of Donald Trump
No longer "presumptive". - Should be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.108.72 (talk) 02:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Date of Birth
Where did the listed birthdate come from? There's nothing about November 18, 1958 in the IndyStar article used to source it. The DOB listed is not anywhere to be found in said article, which says that she was turning 58 on January 1, 2014. If that's correct, then her date of birth was January 1, 1956. I've seen some conflicting info in public records databases, but nothing to suggest November 18, 1958 is correct at all. --Bix (talk) 14:25, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Her birthday is 1/1/57, I'm unable to edit the page. But, that is a fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.131.162 (talk) 21:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Second Lady
When do we update her page for this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.27.161 (talk) 08:38, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2016
Mrs. Pence's birthday is actually 1/1/1957.

72.89.131.162 (talk) 21:35, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Andy W. ( talk ) 06:01, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * See this source, please. -- M h hossein   talk 06:15, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

First marriage?
Karen S Batten first married to John S Whitaker 4 Aug 1978 in Brewster, Texas. Source: Texas Marriage Index, 1966-2002 (Ancestry.com http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=TXmarriageindex&h=2350591&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=TRM22540&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&rhSource=70441)

Karen Sue Whitaker married Michael Richard Pence in Indianapolis, IN. Record does not provide a marriage date but was filed 11 June 1985 by James William Losher? - Catholic Priest. Pence lists occupation as law clerk and Whitaker lists occupation as teacher. Age - Birthplace: Pence - 26 Columbus, Indiana -- Whitaker - 28 Kansas. <-- Note she indicates her birthplace as Kansas instead of Indianapolis. She also indicates she had a previous marriage. Source: INdiana, Marriage Certificates, 1958-2005 (Ancestry.com http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=TRM22540&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=IndianaVitalsMarriages&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=karen&gsfn_x=1&gsln=batten&gsln_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=712&pcat=34&fh=1&h=900154598&recoff=&ml_rpos=2)

Indiana State Library has a Genealogy Database for Marriages: 1958-2013 -- Date provided for Michael Pence and (sic)Waren Whitaker 6/11/85 (https://www.statelib.lib.in.us/INMarriages93to02/IN_marriages_search.asp)

Wiki gschepp (talk) 02:41, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ❌ – (a) It's not clear what kind of edit you are requesting. Please use form "please change X to Y".
 * (b) You have provided only primary sources. Per biographies of living persons policy we must avoid using primary sources to support assertions about a living person – and by the way, when I removed "Whitaker" from infobox, I tried to search secondary reliable mainstream sources that have covered this, but I was unable to find anything useful. Politrukki (talk) 10:38, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There's this as well, but probably still not sufficient. Perhaps it'll be picked up in some mainstream sources in the near future as it looks to be credible. Connormah (talk) 01:11, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I saw that and my conclusion was that this source is not sufficient. That's why I used the expression "reliable mainstream sources". Death and Taxes is probably a reliable source for some content, but probably not a good source for any kind of contentious material in biographies. This piece was actually cited in International Business Times, but it doesn't look like they've done any independent research. We should wait for more coverage. I'm wondering why there aren't more sources already when this story has been out for two months. Politrukki (talk) 13:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2016
Her birthday is 1/1/1957. January 1, 1957. I work for her. 72.89.131.162 (talk) 20:21, 26 November 2016 (UTC) I have also removed your e-mail address which you should not have entered - and which is not a means of verification - Arjayay (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2016
Her birthday is January 1, 1957 (NOT November). This is confirmed. You can contact anyone who knows her or that works for the campaign for confirmation. Thank you. 65.152.141.197 (talk) 15:54, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources where this can be verified to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 16:51, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Birthday correction
Karen Pence's birthday is 1/1/57. It is listed on the official Presidential Transition website: https://www.greatagain.gov/meet-future-second-lady.html 65.152.141.213 (talk) 22:55, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  JTP ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The source referenced above is archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20161129211507/http://greatagain.gov/meet-future-second-lady.html. —ADavidB 14:18, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2017
Mrs. Pence's official photo is incorrect - her official head shot is on the GreatAgain.gov website: https://greatagain.gov/meet-the-future-second-lady-cf539bc3ba78#.z6ckr3zew 65.152.141.213 (talk) 21:58, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  23:19, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2017
Please remove the November birth date and replace with the correct date of January 1, 1957. You can also find this date on her verified Twiiter account. Also, please add to her professional career that she worked 12 years as an elementary art teacher at Immanuel Christian School in Northern Virginia. 73.134.110.19 (talk) 01:16, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Twitter is not a reliable source and you have not provided a source on her teaching. — MRD2014 (talk • contribs) 01:56, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2017
206.74.191.41 (talk) 04:32, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  05:07, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

January 1957 birthday
Karen Pence's birthday is listed as "January 1, 1957" in this archived Trump transition web page. A wagpolitics.com page, while not the most reliable of sources, also lists "January 1957" as her birth month. In addition, the Pences' 1985 marriage certificate shows Karen's age as 28. With a January 1957 birthday, she'd have been 28 at the certificate's June 1985 filing; if born in November 1958, she wouldn't be 28 for another year and five months.

I see significant reason to question the November 1958 birthdate currently shown. Other opinions? Consensus? —ADavidB 15:53, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Some additional details supporting a January 1957 birthday:
 * She was 60 on March 28, 2017, when this Washington Post article was published.
 * She was 21 upon her first marriage on August 4, 1978.


 * —ADavidB 17:13, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Support change – The Transition website is reliable than the current source we have used in the article. The current reference in the article almost looks like they received their information from Wikipedia. Corkythe  hornetfan  (ping me) 18:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

With no further discussion or objection three days later, I've updated the article accordingly. —ADavidB 18:19, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

38th
I made an extremely minor but helpful edit to this article and the articles of the First and Second Ladies of the United States. It happens to mention which particular Second Lady that woman was. For example, I mentioned that Karen Pence was the 38th First Lady of the United States.

It is valuable information that Martha Washington was the first "First Lady" of the United States. mass reverted my edits and then messaged me on my talk page to let me know. I do not see anything wrong with mentioning the order of the First and Second ladies of the United States, and I believe that it is useful information to know.

Also can comment here, since he likes to sit on my edit history.  CatcherStorm    talk   01:59, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * IMHO it's not useful information & can be potentially confusing. 38th Second Lady married to 48th Vice President, could confuse some & cause potentially edit wars. GoodDay (talk) 02:02, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I replied at the RFC. I'm not going to discuss in two separate places on the same issue. Corky  02:43, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Karen Pence (and her predecessors) should not be numbered, in the intro or the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 02:00, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2021
45th vice president not 48th 85.255.237.56 (talk) 23:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌. It is 48th. Some presidents had multiple vice presidents. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 00:00, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Divorce date
It's not mentioned when she divorced her first husband. Did they just live for a few months or a few years? Aminabzz (talk) 20:37, 22 October 2023 (UTC)