Talk:Karl Hess/Archive 1

From a friend of Karl
As the co-producer, director and writer of Karl Hess: Toward Liberty, I was a close friend of Hess and Theresa for several years. He was quite candid about not being the author of the Defense of Liberty line. In fact, he brought up the subject quite early in our filmed interviews to set the record straight.

By the way, the date of the film's release is incorrect. It was released in 1980 and won the Academy Award in 1981 for Best Documentary Short Subject.

Karl was not ideological. I found him much more interested in Appropriate Technology than political theory. His hand-built home, created from bartered materials and labor, was a highly energy efficient. He was very proud of his home. In the late 70s and early 80s, he taught a month-long summer seminar on Appropriate Technology where participants build and managed organic gardens, aquaculture pools, wind turbines,and solar energy systems.

If you look at only the political dimension, he might seems quite ideological. That's because he could talk with great wisdom about so many subjects. He could go on for hours about politics, technology, science, history, virtually anything. But he always wanted a dialogue. I wanted to know your opinion, too. He was also a constantly moving target ideologically. You won't understand Hess by looking only at his end state. Hess was an example of a man who changed his mind when the facts change. He was always open to new ideas.

He described his political transformation as traveling around a circle were left and right meet. At his core was a deep distrust of big organizations, both corporate and governmental and a deep belief in the power of people to take control of their lives and work together at the neighborhood or community level.

His mind was in constant motion, approaching ever new task or subject with what he called beginner's mind; open, without preconceptions. At the same time the breadth and depth of his knowledge was astonishing. Brillant man. He drew on many historical and contemporary sources to explain and support his opinions.

While Hess' political evolution from right to left might seems strange to some, I think his was a life-long quest to find what worked for him - a community where he fit. His life is a testament to our freedom to transform ourselves as our values change.

I recently met Karl Hess Jr. and saw Theresa for the first time in years at a AMPAS screening of Toward Liberty, in October 2007. The film is up on YouTube in three parts. Its a terrible copy and will be replaced soon. I'm not trying to promote the film, but I think you can get a sense of the real man by watching.

I hope these personal experiences and insights are helpful in understanding a great but often misunderstood man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colemancreek (talk • contribs) 02:24, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Improving references, etc.
This article needs a great many more references, but, what it really needs is a lot more content, and a better organization. The section entitled "back-to-the-lander," for just one example, mostly talks about Hess's experiences in the Adams-Morgan neighborhood in Washington, D.C., and the book Community Technology which was based on those experiences. Very little is actually said about his years as a back-to-the-lander. The first section is entitled "biography," as if the whole article were not a biography. So, yeah... better organization, more content, and more references. Tout de suite! --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  22:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that we need to add more reference citations to the article. I just added some this morning.  I think the first paragraph in the main section—discussing Karl's early life—is a patchwork that comes from multiple sources.  The question is: which sources?  I do know that a fair amount of it is given in the old Mother Earth News interview that Karl did (i.e., material is given in the introduction to that interview, as well as in the interview itself).


 * I expanded the "back-to-the-lander" section with some material about his lifestyle and projects after Adams-Morgan. The material I added came from the film Karl Hess: Toward Liberty, and is cited to this effect.Joel Russ (talk) 14:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

extremism/liberty Goldwater line
This article currently says:
 * [Hess] is widely credited with writing the infamous line "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" but he revealed it was originally Lincoln's line.

However our article on Barry Goldwater says of the line:
 * This paraphrase of Cicero was included at the suggestion of Harry V. Jaffa, though the speech was primarily written by Karl Hess.

In this interview Jaffa claims he wrote the lines himself, and that they were not from Cicero (though he's flattered by the confusion). I haven't been able to find any of: 1) a source attributing it to Hess; 2) a source attributing it to some specific work of Cicero; or 3) any reliable third-party source having investigated the matter at all.

--Delirium 10:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is that when you insert remarkable claims they require clear sourcing, preferably including both the name of the source and publication information. I've ordered a copy of MOtE so I can assist with the sourcing. DickClarkMises 18:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The article should say that Hess is credited with writing the "infamous" Goldwater line about "extremism," etc., so I've made the necessary change. Many Wiki contributors have had some difficulty with this matter (and with tampering with the article despite having only a superficial knowledge of Hess and his politics). Playboy said that the line may have cost Goldwater the election. Whoever wants to edit this article should read up on the man first. George415 01:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. You don't own this article. And no matter how well read you are, you cannot insert POV statements in the encyclopedic voice. If you want that description of the Goldwater speech in the article, find sources that you can specifically cite to back it up. DickClarkMises 04:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * "Generally accepted" is a worthless term. What is is the proof that the speech had ANY effect on the election? Nicmart (talk) 04:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The "hippie" description question
Since the inclusion/non-inclusion of the term "hippie" (as descriptive of Karl Hess, in the intro) has been struggled back and forth quite a few times in the history of this article, I thought a discussion section to be in order.

My thoughts: The term "hippie" may be seen as neutral by some people, but in the larger society it is often used in a perjorative sense. Very many people feel that "hippie" is a term for a slacker who never manages to accomplish very much, and so I don't think it makes sense to include this term in describing Karl Hess.

The term is vague and does not seem to me to clarify who this man was, so I question including it in the intro. But I have not removed it, because I figured discussion is a good idea — and also I felt it likely that if I did remove it, someone would just stick it back in.

But at least here we can discuss why we individually feel it is or isn't a good idea. Just toying with the word in this article is pretty silly, don't you agree?Joel Russ (talk) 00:32, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I am the guy responsible for "hippie" in the beginning of this article. I wasn't calling him names; Hess characterized himself as such in Mostly on the Edge. He also called himself an atheist, motorcycle racer, etc. in that autobiography.


 * Above, someone said that this article needs more content and better organization. Well, fair enough. When I first found this piece, there wasn't much to it, so I have personally written at least 60% of what there is so far. Some of what I have contributed has been deleted; I have also gotten this message (from the very same individual who wants more content and better organization): "You've been warned, George." Well, I ain't gonna contribute if I get deletions and warnings, so it'll be up to you guys to do the work from here on out.


 * If you want this article to be its best, read Dear America, which is a fairly difficult book to find. It's Hess's masterpiece; I've read it a dozen times. George415 (talk) 03:30, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * George415: Don't take my comment about the word "hippie" as any sort of disparagement or lack of appreciation for the work you put into the article.  It was the inclusion of that one term — in the start of the article — that I disagreed with.  Just one item.  I'm sure you've contributed much of value to the article, and I for one appreciate that.


 * I've also contributed to the article, and did so in a spirit of cooperation not negation of other individuals' work on it.


 * The problem, as I see it, is that the term "hippie" is loaded. It has negative connotations for some people, and will turn them off right at the start.  Some people unfortunately will then choose not to read the article about a great man.  And I say this even if Hess himself did choose to apply the term to himself in his autobiography.


 * By the way, I read Dear America over 20 years ago. I enjoyed it, and wish I owned a copy now.Joel Russ (talk) 18:55, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, Joel, there's always Amazon if you want another copy of "Dear America." Don't bother with your local bookstores out there in western Canada; even the USA secondhand bookstores have scarcely heard of it. I've read mine a dozen times and it'll soon fall apart. 66.183.42.121 (talk) 01:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Saint Karl Hess
I met Karl Hess twice. The first time was at one of his speeches, at CWRU. The second time was in a small group. On the second occasion, he appeared to have a slight glow (as if he was under a spot-light, but there was not spot-light) &mdash; an aura (halo) of goodness. Since then, I have been convinced that he was a saint. JRSpriggs (talk) 21:12, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalist or anarchist without adjectives?
Hess was clearly a slippery figure in politics, but I've just watched the AK Press DVD "Anarchism in America" (a documentary from 1981) in which Hess details how he discovered anarchism. He very specifically cites Emma Goldman as the person who wrote the ideas he adheres to. Thus, is it appropriate to call him an anarcho-capitalist or is he an anarchist (possibly without objectives)? Donnacha 16:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, if you want some fascinating insights into Hess's politics, read "Dear America" if you can find it.George415 23:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the multimedia source that you cite... but I think the evidence of Hess' anarchocapitalism is pretty strong, although like many others he probably changed his positions over time. According to this source, Hess said a lot of pretty darn A-C things, including,
 * In a laissez-faire society, there could exist no public institution with the power to forcefully protect people from themselves. From other people (criminals), yes. From one's own self, no.
 * The libertarian, laissez-faire movement...builds diversified power to be protected against government, even to dispense with government to a major degree, rather than seeking power to protect government or to perform any special social purpose.
 * Liberty [is]...simply being human to the hilt; being absolutely responsible for your own choices in life, questioning authority, being honest in all dealing with others, and never initiating force to get your way or condoning it for someone else to get their way.

This last quote in particular smacks of Rothbardian Libertarianism/Anarchocapitalism, with its reference to the non-aggression principle. Hess also edited the Libertarian Forum with Murray Rothbard for a while... DickClarkMises 18:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I would also note that Hess wrote the introduction to at least one edition of The Market for Liberty by Linda and Morris Tannehill, which is, so far as I know, consistently defined as an A-C work. DickClarkMises 19:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * From that introduction:
 * ...The importance of reissuing the Tannehills' book at this time, it seems to me, is in the probability that it will inspire and enlarge the horizons of young entrepreneurs who may enormously enjoy what they are doing but may not fully appreciate the larger implications of a free market world. Some will appreciate, from reading the Tannehills, that not only can them make money but that they can help make a new world as they do it. (From the 1984 Fox & Wilkes edition of The Market For Liberty) DickClarkMises 19:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * He was co-editor of The Libertarian Forum with Rothbard. He called himself a libertarian. I'm not sure if he called himself an anarcho-capitalist. Not all anarcho-capitalists call themselves by that term. Some call themselves "libertarians," some call themselves "market anarchists," and some call themselves "individualist anarchists."Anarcho-capitalism 01:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is from the Libertian Forum: "The next meeting was on April 11, when Karl Hess, our most recent and our best-known convert, spoke on the need to avoid letting a sectarian emphasis on economics block our alliance with the other, New Left, groups which are overall libertarian in thrust without being sophisticated in economics...An important anarcho-capitalist group has also rapidly emerged at Wesleyan College..." Anarcho-capitalism 01:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok here is he is explicitly advocating "anarcho-capitalism": "Laissez-faire capitalism, or anarchocapitalism, is simply the economic form of the libertarian ethic. Laissez-faire capitalism encompasses the notion that men should exchange goods and services, without regulation, solely on the basis of value for value. It recognizes charity and communal enterprises as voluntary versions of this same ethic. Such a system would be straight barter, except for the widely felt need for a division of labor in which men, voluntarily, accept value tokens such as cash and credit. Economically, this system is anarchy, and proudly so." The Death of Politics Anarcho-capitalism 01:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

He was a left wing market anarchist, to claim he was an anarcho capitalist is stretching the truth. He's more in tune with left Rothbardians, mutualists, and individualist anarchists than anarcho capitalists. 68.84.235.198 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC).

This is intolerably sloppy.
Apart from sourcing, this needs basic fact-checking, e.g. "In 1968, Richard Nixon was elected president and Barry Goldwater went to Washington as Arizona's junior senator." I don't offhand remember if Goldwater was the junior senator at the time (I think Haydn might have been the senior), but Goldwater was in the Senate for five terms, starting in 1953. Anyone who wrote that just doesn't know enough to write the article. 69.120.62.198 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC).

Goldwater was Senator from Arizona 1953-1965. In the 1968 election, he won the seat left vacant by Hayden's retirement serving 1969-1987. At the time he was elected Senator, Paul Jones Fannin had been serving 4 years on the other Senate seat. If the gap counts as a startover, he would have been junior Senator from Arizona. Naaman Brown (talk) 03:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Gun-running

 * "Subversion for Fun and Profit" an evening with Karl Hess and Robert Anton Wilson, 1987 (The Jim Turney Collection - posted by Libertarianism.org - apparently at a Libertarian Party event) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEdRde6jew0
 * from about 8:45 -22:45


 * Hess:I was in the gun-running business for a time - the curious thing - to see the free market at work makes everything so pleasant [...a bit of funny banter over the end of one joint and the appearance of another] This was getting guns for a fellow in Cuba - his name was Carlos Avia, an engineer, which endeared him to me - and he wanted to overthrow Fulgencio Batista, which seemed like a sensible idea, and so he hired me to get him some automatic weapons and Napalm, which I did fairly successfully. But while doing it I noticed when you deal with these arms merchants how wonderfully matter of fact they are about something that the Pentagon tries to turn into a drama, you know - "how many mortars do you want?" - it seems the Israelis are very big at selling mortars to people - "we can get you this many, would you like a tank?".


 * So I want to describe just briefly what happened in my illustrious career as a gun-runner. The guns went fine, and so did the Napalm - because I convinced the company that makes the saponifying agent that I wanted to burn off 52,000 acres of land and needed an awful lot of Napalm. [laughter] But you might think that this stuff comes already mixed up, but it comes as a powder - it's soap powder, is roughly what it is - and I thought, "My God! there has to be some kind of proper way to mix this, and I'm going to have to tell a bunch of Cubans, after we get it there, how to mix it", and I went to a chemist friend at Shell Oil, who wrote out all the instructions for me, very seriously, and at the end, after spacing it it, said: "run like hell!"


 * But the highlight of my revolutionary activity was dropping the propaganda pamphlets over Havana - well, I don't know if you all panic easily, but when you're trying to figure out how - "where was Florida?", "how are you going to get back there?" and how are you going to explain that you were in this restricted area, and everything goes through your mind. So we had a lot of pamphlets to dump out over Havana, and so we dumped them out in bales of five thousand -[waves of laughter from the audience from this point on] and it occurred to me: "I've bombed some - I've bombed Havana!".  So I really feel bad about that, I think that constitutes some sort of a trespass on them - the pamphlets wouldn't have been so bad, anyway...[stares into space] It was wonderful.
 * But the highlight of my revolutionary activity was dropping the propaganda pamphlets over Havana - well, I don't know if you all panic easily, but when you're trying to figure out how - "where was Florida?", "how are you going to get back there?" and how are you going to explain that you were in this restricted area, and everything goes through your mind. So we had a lot of pamphlets to dump out over Havana, and so we dumped them out in bales of five thousand -[waves of laughter from the audience from this point on] and it occurred to me: "I've bombed some - I've bombed Havana!".  So I really feel bad about that, I think that constitutes some sort of a trespass on them - the pamphlets wouldn't have been so bad, anyway...[stares into space] It was wonderful.


 * RAW: "I'm beginning to feel I've led a rather sheltered life."
 * [Goes on to estimate 5,000 informers, etc. for various agencies in the peace movement in Chicago in the '60s. Tells an amusing anecdote about being suspected by the Chicago Red Squad of running guns for the Black Panthers, and finding out because Playboy (RAW was an associate editor there at the time) had an informer in the Red Squad. RAW also knew of a second informer for the activists in the R.S.]


 * Hess: It depends on the side you're on really, because I was actually running guns, and the FBI knew every single thing I did, but of course I was approved - you can be an approved gun runner [laughter] – so there was never any problem.


 * [another exchange, RAW describes how it was proven in court that Noraid was running guns to the IRA, guns they got from the CIA]


 * Hess: but it's wonderful if you really want a career in high-level mischief – and I must say it really is fun, God, I mean blowing up things and ...stuff, it really is fun I really don't think people understand that too richly or enough about war and why there is so much support for it – it isn't a conspiracy, it's part of an excitement, it really is exciting.


 * [RAW…]


 * Hess: It really is amazing how you can be an official outlaw in this country. It has some advantages. If you are the State's radical, you are like methadone. You are the State's narcotic, and they will help you out, they will do all sorts of good things. Just as a for instance: the fellow who worked for the FBI who was my nurse or whatever – this person said that the reason that he had volunteered - volunteered, get this – to become an informant for the FBI was that they had offered him to take his young daughter suffering from a very severe ailment to the National Institute of Health or Walter Reed or anyplace to have her worked on, so in order to save his daughter's life - a nice deal that the FBI made with him – he decided to be an informer. I don't think there's any depths to which they won't sink.

[…]


 * To indicate what lovely people they are, when my tax rebellion was at its zenith, back when I had any money to tax, the IRS went to my mother, who was quite elderly, and said that they wanted to check on her health, and she inquired why, and they said: “but we want to make sure when you die, you don't leave anything to your son, or if you do that we get what he owes us. I think that's villainy beyond belief. And my mother, she later in talking to this young man, the agent said to her “why is your son doing this?” And she said: “young man, don't you read the newspapers? He's written more about it than anybody I know.” But it doesn't do much good, does it? Except sometimes it may.


 * I've mentioned several times that recently I met a guy in West Virginia where I live, and he said: “I've got a nasty shock for you, I work at the IRS data center”  - which is, oddly enough about nine miles from us – and he said: “I'm about to retire”. So I've been keeping in fairly close touch with this fellow because I can't think of anybody more interesting than a Libertarian working at the IRS central computer who is about to retire. [laughter, applause]

Enon (talk) 18:30, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Stack Exchange
Skeptics Stack Exchange just had a question asked that related to this article. Can the US government garnish 100% of your income? It may be of interest to those working on this article. Zell Faze (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2017 (UTC)