Talk:Karmiel

More angles on establishment?
Can someone fill in the info on the city's establishment from another angle? Info from a book by Sabri Jiryis (with a foreword by Noam Chomsky) would probably have bias. ehudshapira 23:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i will soon give some other angels. My masters degree's thesis was about the implementation of the city of Karmiel in the Beith Hakerem valley. I would bring more ressurces and will check the exactitude of the existing ones. Domozy 13:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia devoted to creating biased, imbalanced articles? This is hardly an article about Karmiel--look at the space devoted to land apropriation. Nothing about the cultural activities, the Arab businesses in Karmiel, the accredited university, what is made in the busy industrial area, the unique layout and greenspace, etc. I am truly embarrassed (yet again) at the poor quality and imbalance of Wikipedia. And note that the designation "Palestine" was originally given to Jewish Israel as an insult. Israel has reverted back to its ancient name. Granted, a people now, modernly, do use the name, and they are certainly full and worthy members of human race, and I hope free to speak up. But you give the impression here yet again that an ancient Arab peoples called Palestinians lost their homeland to foreigners. The ancient Biblical Peleset, the Philistines, from whence the word Palestine comes, were neither Arab, nor even Semitic, and they certainly did not live in most of what was ancient or modern Israel. Frankly, an unbiased article would immediately be branded as "biased." Maybe it can't be done. (Signed: A Karmieli) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.94.221 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 20 May 2007
 * No. Wikipedia is devoted to giving everyone the opportunity to do the research & writing needed to create what they believe belongs here. Sounds like you have what it takes. Do it! --Rich Janis (talk) 08:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Birth of a town section dispute
It's amazing that several editors are edit-warring on the main page, and no one started a discussion yet, so I'm going to go ahead and start one. I was notified of the problems on this page through my talk page by User:Gilabrand (a notice which should've been made clear here, but I didn't come to argue about canvassing).

In any case, after reviewing the nature of the edits, I have to say that I mostly agree with Gilabrand's position, although the fact that all involved editors have ignored the dispute resolution process is not helpful. Here are my reasons:
 * It is incoceivable, and a clear violation of the undue weight policy, to have more info about a controversy with dubious notability, than about the actual founding of the city (groundbreaking, planning, zoning, etc.), in a section meant to deal only with the founding of the city. Moving the controversy information to a 'founding controversy' section (which should not be part of history) would partly solve the WP:UNDUE problem, if the article is expanded to include more information about the non-controversial aspects of the city.
 * Further strengthening the above is the dubious notability of the controversy. The fact that the only person who seems to have written about it is a Palestinian activist is clear indication that the incident is non-notable, even assuming that the activist writing about it is 100% accurate in his statements.
 * Even though there are no sources disputing Jiryis on this issue (AFAIK), there is a clear conflict of interest here because he is a political figure and is/was part of the Palestinian legislature (judging by his article on Wiki). By comparison, other sources we sometimes use, no matter how disputed (especially Morris) are non-political. I think that something written by a Palestinian government official about the Arab–Israeli conflict should not be quickly taken at face value.

-- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * For an article about a town this size it is not too much inf.;, if you think it is a WP:UNDUE problem, the *fill in* (start digging!) more information...don´t solve WP:UNDUE by takeing out sourced information!
 * As for being an "Arab source": yes, the writer is Arab, but just about all the sources he uses are Israeli/Jewish/Hebrew. (Including writers like Uri Davis) That is why nobody have disputed Jiryis.
 * If we are going to dispute/question all writers who have represented a political party (and cast doubt over them, saying they have "a clear conflict of interest"), how many Israelis would be left? Regards Huldra (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not entirely accurate. Karmiel is a small city with a short history, so even if everything reasonable to write about its history is written in an encyclopedic manner (see example GAs Ashdod, Arad, Israel), this particular controversy would still take up a large, and clearly undue, chunk of the section. Again, I don't think the controversy should be removed entirely, just significantly toned down and summarized (as well as introducing reliable sources). In any case, if the controversy is as prominent and important as you say, surely some real historians like Benny Morris or Yoav Gelber (or even Khalidi) have written about it? Morris brought to light information on most of the 1948 war massacres of Arabs by Jews, so there's no reason he wouldn't write about major land confiscations, unless those confiscations were non-notable.
 * I never said anything about Arab, Jewish or Japanese sources. I said that Jiryis was a politician in the Palestinian legislature, so it was a conflict of interest. You don't see me citing books by Golda Meir, Menachem Begin or Meir Kahane as factual information about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, so I expect you not to cite books written by Palestinian politicians. Especially, I expect reliable/authorative sources to be cited, i.e. historians for historical information, etc. Jiryis is not an historian, and neither is Uri Davis (again though, not sure how he is relevant).
 * See the above point.
 * -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I´m not sure what is "not entirely accurate" here. Yes; Karmiel is a relatively small city with a short history; that surely doesn´t mean it cannot have a long article? And that is was banned for non-Jews was (and is) the most well-known fact about it, at least outside Israel (AFAIK). Its history has been treated in several books, it seems as if it is "compulsory history" when it comes to the history of Israeli Arabs (together with Nazareth Illit) (just as when anybody mention depopulated 1948 villages, there are mostly 3-4 names that are mentioned again and again). I am not familiar with Yoav Gelber, but I am familiar with  Benny Morris and he has AFAIK written very little about post 1950s. What he is excellent in is digging through newly released archives from the 1940s-early 1950s. I doubt Karmiel would have interested him much, as I assume most archives are still closed for the town (as you say: it has a short history.) The ones that I know of who have written about the town are those who have written about Arab-Israelis. If you only want "certified" historians quoted on this page I´m afraid you will not have any history. But then that will be the same for very, very many other Israeli cities. Do you really want to take away all history that isn´t written by certified Israeli historians? How much post-1960 history will then be left? This is an absurd demand.
 * The article now say: "Arab claims". I strongly object to this. You could just as well have said that "Jews claims". You said that Jiryis was a politician in the Palestinian legislature, so it was a conflict of interest. Well, in that case Meron Benvenisti has a conflict of interest (he was an Israeli politician,   Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem), do you agree with that? Uri Avnery of course also has  conflict of interest (former Knesset member) and so on, and so on. I think you should look at what Sabri Jiryis has published, and realise that he has worked for a research institute most of his life. Shall we dismiss everything say, Zbigniew Brzezinski ..and other American politicians/academics write (out of office), because they  have/have had "a conflict of interest"? You have a big job ahead of you, if you try to enforce that as a policy..... But you want to enforce it for a Palestinian? No go.    ....My point is that there is a fundamental difference between those with an academic background, who has worked with/in research institutes and then "free-lance" for a while in politicks (people like Jiryis, Benvenisti, and at a much higher scale; Zbigniew Brzezinski), and those without academic background, and/or those who are politicians their whole life (like Begin, Meir). We can both agree that the second group should not be used as an academic source. I do not agree if you say we cannot use the first group as a source. If we cannot use  Jiryis, then we cannot use Benvenisti either. Do you agree? If you want, we can go to the WP:RS noticeboard and get a "judgement", or better, I think: bring it to to Pal/Israel -colaberation-board (More knowledgeable people..)
 * I think the way forward here is to dig up information about other sides of the history, (and there are many!), say, where did the immigrants come from? What did they work with? How was the town planned? etc, etc. Start adding stuff. not removing it. Regards, Huldra (talk) 20:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that's where we disagree. Not only is the land dispute with Israel-Arabs clearly not the most well-known issue in Karmiel's history, it is also by far not the most important. If it is, as you say, such an important issue for Israeli Arabs, then the information should be in the article Israeli Arabs and not here. Maybe start a new article about history of land disputes between the Israeli government and its Arab citizens. If Morris and other historians weren't really interested in this town's Arab-Jewish disputes, then this is an excellent indication that what you're proposing to add is undue weight. Controversial events with little to no historical importance should not be covered so in-depth. About other history, unrelated to the conflict, I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. Karmiel (and other new Israeli cities) have short simple histories with little to no controversies, and don't require the same standards for sources as the disputed points (again, see WP:REDFLAG). We certainly don't need a reputed historian to tell us, for example, that Karmiel was a development down started in 1963, or when a particular neighborhood was planned. In fact, for facts like that I'd say that a geometrical data website (like this) would hold more weight than any historian.
 * It's funny that each time we talk, you come up with some new names (some familiar to me and others that are not), and when I look them up, they happen to be exterme leftists (suprise surprise). At the same time, you are not familiar with well-known mainstream and highly-reputed non-political Israeli historians/Israel researchers like Yoav Gelber (and likely Jeuda Wallach and Zev Vilnay, for example). I think this is exactly the problem here—using mainstream sources vs. fringe sources (especially Uri Avnery, who falls under every definition of WP:FRINGE). I am more than willing to look into extreme left sources, but I ask you to also try to find more mainstream ones (both pro-Israel and those clearly anti-Israel, like the historian Walid Khalidi, if you like). As I already said about Benvenisty in this discussion (not sure about Brzezinsky as I've never made a connection between him and Israel), I would generally oppose using him as a source (and have never seen this done on Wikipedia anyway) even though he's a very minor politician and certainly not a member of the Knesset (Israeli legislature). Even so, I can't see how you can compare Jiryis, who is known 90% for his pro-Palestinian political (activist?) activities, and Benvenisty, who is completely unknown as a politician.
 * That I will. However, as I said before, not enough can potentially be written about Karmiel's actual history to make your addition of Arab claim look like the minor issue that it is. Certain Wikipedians have in the past artificially inflated articles to huge proportions (which shouldn't have been more than 2-3 paragraphs) by making direct lengthy quotes from their sources, but this isn't how an encyclopedic article should be written, and I certainly won't support bloating up the prose about Karmiel's actual history just in order to eclipse the Arab claims. Everything should be written in an encyclopedic manner and given due weight.
 * I'll get back to you with more information once I have time to do actual research. Cheers, Ynhockey (Talk) 21:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I am at a loss to understand you when you write that " land dispute with Israel-Arabs clearly not the most well-known issue in Karmiel's history." Well, fine: can you tell what *is* the most well-known issue, then?
 * You argue that we cannot use Jiryis as a source since he also has had a political position. If you want to impose such a rule, then it had to be valid for all of WP, not only in the ME-section. Therefore I mentioned Brzezinsky, not because he had any connection to Israel, but because he is in a similar situation, i.e. an academic who has served in a political position. I could also mention Joseph Stiglitz to show what absurdity such a position would lead to: we could not quote from him since he served a political role under Clinton? That the former Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem for 7 years is "a very minor politician" is your claim, I would say that he no more minor politician than Jiryis. And please do some research before you post: there are dozens of articles which use  Benvenisti as a source; do a search. You claim that  Jiryis is 90%  known for political work, but that is 100% untrue in my part of the world. Here he is 100% known (if he is known at all) for his books; the "Arab Israeli" book has been translated both into Swedish and Norwegian. Again: I would strongly urge you to read the book; (though it is dryer that the Sahara...;-P). Personally, I first heard of Jiryis through Göran Rosenberg, who is one of the most influential writers about Israel in Scandinavia. Some would argue the most influential. And very "main-stream," in my society.
 * I have read (and continue to read) any source which writes about Karmiel. But to use the fact that Benny Morris has not written about the history of Karmiel as "an excellent indication that what you're proposing to add is undue weight", is, IMHO, quite absurd. Morris is a historian who has done a great job going through newly opened archives in Israel (and elsewhere). Most /many of these archives have a 50-year clause, so 1948 material was first available in 1998. The newest would be 1958 material being available this year. And it takes some time to study it/+ write it. Therefore, the history of Karmiel is simply too young for a historian like Morris: the material is most likely not available. Off-hand I cannot think of any subject that after 1956 that he has written about. And Zev Vilnay would not be a RS according to your own criteria (a military topographer in the Haganah? No given academic credentials? Forget it;-D)
 * I am looking forward to your own research on the subject. Regards, Huldra (talk) 16:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a no-brainer. Karmiel is a development town success story, and that is the most important and well-known aspect in its history. This is the first association any Israeli would have with Karmiel, and any foreigner who has been to Israel and has heard about the town. Only pro-Palestinian 'actvists' seem to emphasize other angles. Secondly, please do not ignore my other concerns, such as WP:REDFLAG.
 * I am sorry that you cannot tell the difference between a known long-time Palestinian (or Israeli) legislator writing about contentious things which he personally politically lobbied for (therefore, the writing is an extension of his politics, and not vice versa), being an academic of law (like Dershowitz)—and a non-political professional like Zev Vilnay, who never held any public view and was content with working on his books about Israeli geography and history. I can throw the 'haven't done research' back at you, as Vilnay doesn't only have academic credentials, he has a doctorate and served as visiting professor in numerous Israeli universities. In fact, this applies to all cases (Chomsky, Dershowitz, Tibi, Jiryis, etc.)—when you look at their academic work, you have to ask yourself if it's an extension of their political view/activities. In some cases (especially Chomsky/Dershowitz), the answer is crystal clear. If you provide me with a list of articles where either of these two are cited without 'according to ...', I will glady add that clause. On a side note, almost all Israeli historians and academics had served in the IDF (even Morris, despite refusing to do so, because you're drafted before you can refuse), and political opinion are strictly prohibited in the army, so being in the Haganah/IDF is not an excuse to exclude someone, unlike being a politician. Moreover, it's highly unfortunate that (according to you) the only written works/authors about Israel–Palestine popular in Scandinavia are highly extreme-left and anti-Israel, but this is certainly not your fault. For the sake of NPOV however, I expect you to also look into sources from the 'other side' of the political spectrum, and most importantly, non-political sources.
 * I only gave Morris as an example, and you're right that he doesn't seem to dedicate any works to the post-1956 era (even though you're wrong about the documents—only IDF archives are made publically available after 50 years; government documents like land use are available at all times, if you know where to look). The point is, if not a single real historian wrote about this (not just Morris, but anyone), then it's a clear indication of undue weight. I am very interested in what Uri Davis wrote, and am still waiting for your draft using him as a source directly, and not Jiryis, who supposedly based his work on Davis's.
 * I apologize again for taking my time with this, but please bear with me. I am in the process of being released from the IDF, and all my weekdays are still taken up, so doing serious research is rather difficult at the moment. It shouldn't take more than a couple more weeks though. Until them, I'll be glad to see what Davis wrote, as well as the other materials you said you ordered.

Cheers, Ynhockey (Talk) 19:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Just quickly two words: my order of Jiryis book in English (+ Ian Lusticks book) have been confirmed, and I have been told they are in the mail. From experience that means they will arrive in anything from 3 days to 3 months..I will return to this article then. In the meantime, please read the history-section of Nazareth Illit, even better: read the source in "The Journal of Israeli History," (2006) and you will see that your claim for WP:REDFLAG is not valid, for a start. And I have noted what "independent" level of sources you demand when it comes to, say criticisms of Machsom Watch. And how WP:UNDUE is interpreted in *that* article. I´ll return here when my books have arrived. Regards, Huldra (talk) 16:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Removal of sourced information
Firstly, a very pro-Israeli editor, Gilabrand, object to facts in the history-section of this article and deleted them, (facts which have been in the article for more than two years(!)). Since I reversed Gilabrandts reversions, he the goes to another well-known pro-Israeli editor, Ynhochey, for |solicit help. Therefore, Ynhockey comes here and removes supports the removal of most of the history of Karmiel. And he they do NOT move deleted material to the talk-page, instead he they just completely burries it(!) However, this was what the history-part looked like:

Birth of a town
In 1956, about 1,275 acres belonging to the Israeli Arab villages of Deir al-Asad, Bi'ina and Nahf were declared as "closed areas" by Israeli authorities. This area, situated next to the main road between Acre and Safed, included some of the finest marble quarries in Israel. Five years later, in 1961, the Israeli authorities were able to expropriate the land (giving the reason that the land was not in use) for the building of Karmiel. The expropriation met with strong resistance from the Arab villagers who offered the government other land which was more suitable for building a town. The government refused, offering instead "equally good land" in the same area.

When Moshe Sneh (Maki) and Yusef Khamis (Mapam) brought the case to the Knesset on behalf of the villagers, and as it turned out, there was no "equally good land" in the area. Following the debate the villagers arranged a protest meeting in March 1962. The military Governor of Galilee, however, declared the villages "closed areas" on the day of the protest, so nobody could contact the villagers and the meetings were therefore cancelled. The same happened with a protest meeting planned for January 1964.

After the first part of Karmiel was finished and Jews had started moving in, some local Arabs applied for permission to move into the town, but were denied. The Minister of Housing, Yosef Almogi, refused in a Knesset debate in 1964 to answer whether it was forbidden for Arabs to live in Karmiel. He only replied that "Karmiel was not built to solve the problems for the people in the surrounding area."

Many Jewish Israelis were upset by what they saw as discrimination against Arabs and in February 1965 about 400 people walked from Tel Aviv to the "closed-off" areas around Karmiel, protesting against "discrimination of a group of our citizens". Representatives of the protesters went to a local police station, informing the police that they were staying in the area without permission. Nobody was arrested immediately, but as soon as things had quiet down the perceived leaders were arrested and put before military tribunal.

In January and February 1972 an Israeli Arab entrepreneur offered to invest money in building industry where both Jews and Arabs could work in the town. The offer divided the town, but those who opposed won, and the offer was rejected.

Newest developement
The issue is now under discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. I have ordered the English edition of Jiryis work; his book is translated both to Swedish and Norwegian, and I had only one of these Scandinavian editions available at the local library. In order for us to agree about wording and page-numbering, I thought I must get the English version. However, I will in any case not be working on this for the next weeks, as I have 2 books on Palestinian cinema on loan from out-of-town libraries, so working on Cinema of Palestine must be my priority in the nearest future.

Ynhochey, how is your research on Karmiels history progressing? Regards, Huldra (talk) 13:52, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't had much time to do anything lately and will get back to this issue either this weekend or next. Sorry for the delay. In the meantime, Nudve will possibly be able to bring some new information. Today I will reply to your October 28 comments which I didn't notice until today. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This articles from the Israel Democracy Institute mentions the expropriation (5000 dunams). Hillel Cohen's book discusses it as a case study of the Israeli security services' use of collaborators to affect the media, so much of it isn't entirely relevant here. He does mention Uri Davis' efforts and the February 1965 demonstration in particular, so it's probably notable. -- Nudve (talk) 13:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

isn't it Carmiel?
with a C? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.101.214 (talk) 15:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen it written that way, but generally it is written with a K. You are probably confusing it with Carmel, which is almost always written with a C. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:01, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Karmiel or Karmi'el
To write Karmi'el is incorrect. The use of the apostrophe when transliterating Hebrew is for the glottal stop before the letter ayin. Karmiel is written with an aleph and not an ayin, so Karmiel is the correct transliteration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cymruisrael (talk • contribs) 07:37, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That's why in my original edit, I changed it to "Karmiˀel" according to ISO 259-3 or even other ISO 259 editions, but someone undid it. Ly362 (talk) 10:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * But who decided that an apostrophe denotes ˁayn? There's no agreed upon standard. Ly362 (talk) 10:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact in most signs here it says "Karmi'el". Ly362 (talk) 10:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue here isn't the correct literal transliteration (the Academy for the Hebrew Language makes the standards), but the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. One such guideline is WP:COMMONNAME, which states that you can't use an obscure name (including transliterations) if there is a common one. Using non-ASCII symbols in titles is also problematic from a technical point of view (except dashes, which is no longer an issue). —Ynhockey (Talk) 23:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, according to what you said, the "transliteration" of this name here should be "Karmi'el". Ly362 (talk) 00:08, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It already was in the original version, see infobox. The mail title, however, should reflect the name most commonly used in English, if there is one. This is a fairly clear-cut case. —Ynhockey (Talk) 19:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There isn't an English name for this relatively new city, it isn't Jerusalem. The common Romanization here in Israel is "Karmi'el", that's what appears on all road signs and other signs here around Karmi'el and farther south, and also that's what the Hebrew Transliteration guideline here on Wikipedia insturcts, doesn't it? Not that I am happy with the situation of the Romanization, including the newer decision of the academy, for road signs, that's I'm not sure when it should take effect. I'm in favor of ISO 259-3 in any case, like "Karmiˀel", but if not then it should be "Karmi'el". Ly362 (talk) 23:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Karmiel has appeared often enough in English-language publications, and has consistently been spelled Karmiel. Again, there's no ambiguity here—it's not like a number of significant publication used a different spelling. WP:COMMONNAME doesn't apply only to cities that have a Biblical English name. —Ynhockey (Talk) 18:11, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. I think you should also review this policy, which states that: "In a nutshell: Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." —Ynhockey (Talk) 18:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

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History: clarifications & sources needed
See tags. Looks like a transl. from heWiki done long ago and not updated or reworked. Arminden (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)