Talk:Karnataka/Archive 2

Rail Transport
The Rail Transport section is full of non-factual statements. In reality, Karnataka has one of the poorest rail networks in the country. -- Amarrg 06:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Flora and Fauna
I have moved major chunk of this section to Flora and fauna of Karnataka and removed material from here to reduce the size of that section. Feel free to make any necessary changes. Gnanapiti 19:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Summary style
The article has undergone great improvement recently thanks majorly to Amarrg. But the only thing that is of concern is that we should adhere to WP:SS. Over the next two days, I propose to greatly trim the flab on this article and bring it to adhere to WP:SS. Since most of the sections have dedicated articles, I will move any content that I remove from here, to its own articles. So no content will be lost and this article will provide a crisp summary. If any sections warrant their own dedicated articles, I will create them. Hope there are no concerns on this count. Thanks. Sarvagnya 00:52, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Good idea.Dineshkannambadi 01:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Purandara dasa
First of all, please cite a source for the 475,000 number and a reliable one, if you will. And, if he is "beleived" to have composed so many, then how many do we know he actually did ? Lotlil 00:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Tourism section in the article
According to the project WikiProject_Indian_states, this section is not required. Will the inclusion of this section violate any FA rules? Should we remove the section and provide a link to the main tourism article in a See Also section? Please comment.., Thanks -- Amarrg 16:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. I dont think it will violate any FA rules. imo, we can just leave it as it is and see what people say when we put it up for FA review.  If the reviewers raise any objections, we'll remove it... otherwise, I think it can stay.  I see no harm.  Sarvagnya 16:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * DittoDineshkannambadi 16:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Format for FA
(2 paras) (consolidated)
 * Lead
 * History


 * Geography

(make a subarticle out of the listed subdivisions)
 * Demography


 * Govt and adminsitration


 * Economy


 * Transport

(consolidate-->arts (Yakshagana and other folk arts), music, religion, language, literature
 * Culture


 * Nature


 * Travel
 * Media

The format is flexible and can be rearranged. Dineshkannambadi 18:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Education
 * Sports


 * I will start my copyediting in an hour. Once the copyediting is done and we bring down the size to atleast 70kb, I think we can go for FA.  Sarvagnya 20:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

TBD
Dineshkannambadi 21:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The last para of History, Literature, Language and Religion needs one or two citations each. I will get down to that this weekend.
 * Origin of Karnataka name should be merged with History. No point having a small para hanging out there. The lead may need to be slightly bigger by one para.
 * A very brief mention of a few highlights may be needed, just as the Jnanapit awards have been mentioned. Something like "karnataka's contribution to literature, architecture, sports (cricket, hockey), religion ... " all in one short para.
 * Too many single line, double line, triple line paras. Need to keep to no less than 5 line paras by merging.
 * Formatting is important, it seems we may have too many title headings making the "heading box" too long.
 * We should compare against another "Indian state" FA (if any) and see how it looks. we may get some ideas there.
 * Every web link needs to be shown as a reference in the "Reference column", All reference book/link needs to be alphabetized.
 * Mention must be made of the new state govt rules regrding compulsory Kannada education in all types of schools, state, central etc.
 * Mention about achievements in cricket, Hockey, Billiards (Advani), Badminton (Padukone) etc..
 * Images should not have "size" adjusts, too accomodate all browsers. They should preferable placed on right hand side without zig-zag placements.
 * I was comparing with Kerala state FA. We have too many subheadings. Need to consolidate culture, religion and arts into one section. Even witin Economy for instance, we have to many subheadings. It needs to be consolidated. We have surely more variety in topics and thats good.
 * Yes. Consolidating sub-headings is one of the goals.  But to consolidate subheadings we will have to summarise each of those subheadings first and then consolidate.  If memory serves right, even the tourism section had subheadings at one time before I summarised and made it into one small paragraph.  Eventually, my aim is to try and reduce all sections to look like the Education, Religion, Flora and fauna, Tourism and sports sections(though even these sections need some more copyedit).  But basically, we need to do this in two stages.  In the first stage, we'll need to summarise what is in each of those subsections and in the second stage, we will somehow have to try and stitch together the subsections into one homogenous piece.  I will start my cpediting soon.  Sarvagnya 21:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment Yes. I agree. I will take a closer look at History, arts, culture, language, literature and religion and improve it. There are some things missing. Regarding all the sections in general, its important to give a 1-2line info on how it evolved in Karnataka. Example: Cricket: We need to give a minor intro as to when Karnataka came on to the cricket map, which was the first match they played and where. I dont know if a mention has been made that Karnataka has one the Ranji 6 times, been runners up 4 times, won the Irani trophy 4 times. This way every section needs to be introduced and rounded with "evoluation" and "achievement" in mind. For Carnatic music: How was music a part of Karnataka life before Purandaradasa etc.Dineshkannambadi 22:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Consolidated views
The way I see it -


 * Origin of name and history - probably need to be blended together and greatly pruned.
 * Geography - I had recently copyedited the subsections and so we may now need to try and see how we can get rid of the subsections and condense it into one piece of prose. After doing that, we will need to polish for grammar, spellings,language, wikilinks etc.,.
 * Demography - I am thinking that we could maybe put those figures in a table or something. Let us see.
 * Govt and admin - we need to probably get rid of the subsections and prune some. Also copyedit and polishing.
 * Language and literature - had recently copyedited an pruned it quite a bit. But needs just a little more pruning and some polishing of the prose.
 * Transportation - the subsections are fairly well summarised as they already are. there may not be real need to get rid of the subsections but we can get rid of the subsections in the TOC.
 * Economy - I guess this is done for the most part except some polishing of prose may be required.
 * Art and culture - needs to be pretty much rewritten.
 * Education - needs just a little pruning and some copyediting.
 * Media - Subsections need to be fused together somehow are maybe we can leave it like that. I dont see much harm.  We can always 'un-subsectionise' them from the TOC though.
 * Religion - needs some polishing.
 * Flora n fauna - needs some polishing.
 * Sports - needs some pruning, copyediting and polishing.
 * Tourism - needs some polishing. Sarvagnya 02:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

* Economy: Too short. Need facts and figures in Rupees, Dollars. Need to mention produce and amount if possible.
 * More citations in last para of History (unification), Literature, Language and Religion
 * Need to prune History by 10%-15%
 * Expansion of lead by one more paragraph describing achievements, specialities of Karnataka
 * Merge single line, doubleline, triple line paragraphs in larger pargraphs
 * Unless absolutely necessary. no sub-sub headings
 * All external links should be in reference section also. All references alphabetized
 * Sports :expand a bit and mention about achievements in cricket (Ranji), Hockey, Billiards (Advani), Badminton (Padukone) etc..
 * Education: Compulsory Kannada education issue?.
 * Mention official change of names of various cities to original Kannada names?
 * No image sizing and right adjust all images
 * Typical of such an article is the use of every possible unit of measure such as Km, Kgs, tonnes etc. All these units have to be presented with the right format with a fps-metric conversion equivalent. Examples of the conversion syntax exists in "Flora and Fauna of Karnataka" article where the area and altitude units are mentioned for various national parks. This is important.
 * Art: The section jumps from Haridasas to Modern Hindusthani musicians. There is no mention of modern carnatic personalities like Chowdiah, Veena Subbanna, Veena Seshanna, I forget the name of the Wodeyar king who was a profound musician. Of late R.K. Srikantan, Ravi Kiran. We need to show carnatic music is not entirely Chennai based. Even a DYK was written on Rudrapatna by Bakasuprman. Famous modern singers in semi classical-devotional, Kannada gazal's?
 * The sections Language, culture and Religion should go together. Administrations, Economy, Transport should go together, Media and Education should go together, Flora-Fauna and Travel should go together. Right now these sections are mixed up.
 * Yes. That is why I also felt that the entire section should be rewritten(above). Sarvagnya 16:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

 Dineshkannambadi 03:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Avoid redlinking of scientific terms in Flora-Fauna section.
 * See also and Main artciel attachemnts should not be inserted in the middle of sections. Only at the top of each section.
 * Floriculture: an up and coming industry in KA.
 * Religion: Need to mention popularity of Buddhism in Gulbarga (sannati) in early first mill.
 * Need to mention important places of pilgrimage for Shaivas, Muslims and Christians.

Update
I got rid of the references in History section and also did a light cpedit. I moved all the references to History of Karnataka article. Moreover, the articles that this section links to are extensively referenced and per WP:SS we dont need to repeat all of them here. The history section, however needs to be wikilinked properly to the appropriate articles. And for the other sections too, we dont need to reference them very extensively. If the "main articles" are well referenced, that should do. By getting rid of most of the references on this article, we can shave off another 10kb atleast. Sarvagnya 08:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * oops.. I am sorry. I just observed that I actually also got rid of the wikilinking when I edited the history section.  I will put them back again.  Sarvagnya 08:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be a good idea to tick off what has been addressed in the above TBD's.Dineshkannambadi 23:56, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Economy

I feel this is how economy should be emphasised. *Para1-->Total GDP, GNP, Per capita income, compare this to national average. Mention the pioneers (Visveswariah, Narayana Murthy)!! Foreign direct investment an comparison to othre states. *Para4-->IT and BT. Full details of number of companies, employees, turnover. Business model. Impact on modern India. The world ses India through KA. So this para is important.
 * Para2-->Discuss the % of arable land and actual irrigated, main reservoirs, and turnover. Main crops and minerals (with locations).It employs 60% of 52 million, so needs a mention.
 * Para3-->Heavy and public sector industry and scientific industry, BHEL, BEL, NAL, ISRO etc. Total employees.

Facts and figures should be exposed, not hidden in inline citations. The world sees and reads this .Dineshkannambadi 11:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Will do. Sarvagnya 15:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Garden city or Silicon Valley of India?
Which might be the appropriate representation for Bengaluru? I vote for the second one. Gnanapiti 04:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * First one for the lead. The second one for the economy section.  Bengaluru has been known as the Garden city probably since several decades before the Silicon tag stuck.  Or if we can reword and have both in the lead, I'd be fine with that too. Sarvagnya 05:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Lead and Origin of name
I propose merging Origin of Name section with the lead without any headings. It doesn't make any sense to have a section for 4-5 sentences. Merging with lead rather than History section makes the lead more explanatory. Also we need to add some unique things about Karnataka to the lead like IT Capital of India, number of Jnanpith awards etc, making sure they catch eyes of readers. Number of districts and all can be later mentioned in Administration or any such sections, preferably. Gnanapiti 05:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This is one of the items in the "consolidated views" tbd. The first para of lead foucsses on location, 2nd on a historical setting, 3rd on a popular modern setting. something like that....Dineshkannambadi 11:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Some edits
I think it is time that we all take another look at the article and remove all citations, pics and prose which is not needed in the article. The article has bloated and is making editing difficult and even the page is take a long time to load. I think we have anyway moved all the information in this article to the subarticles. So there is no risk of any info getting lost during our edits. Whatever happens in this article, all the details will definitely be in the subarticles. So if anything important is accidentally removed, we always know where to look. I will start removing some prose, images and after some time, the citations also. Per WP:SS we dont have to repeat all the citations in this article which is a "summary style" article.

Just by getting rid of some pics and the citations, I think we can reduce the size by atleast 15 kb. After that, I think we will have to reduce almost all sections by atleast a third; especially the history, Govt and culture(which also needs a rewrite) sections. I hope there are no objections to this. Sarvagnya 06:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The reason I say that we should trim the flab first is because without doing that it will be very difficult to cpedit the article for things such as style, grammar, flow etc.,. Sarvagnya 06:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Flora and fauna section
May I firstly commend Dinesh Kannambadi, Gnanapiti and Amarrg for their wonderful efforts so far in improving the article! I wish you the best of luck in you guys adding the main Karnataka article to the already large collection of Karnataka-related FAs. I discovered that the last three paragraphs in the Flora and fauna section were all long listy sentences. I hope you can address this issue because in my opinion long listy sentences, especially three in a row, doesn't make good reading. Thanks! GizzaChat  &#169; 11:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It will be addressed, thanks.Dineshkannambadi 11:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Addressed. -- Amarrg 15:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks once again. GizzaChat  &#169; 06:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Moving towards FAC
The Peer review is completed now and the raised concerns have been addressed. Is it fine now to move ahead towards FAC? Thanks. - KNM Talk 01:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Its been there quite a long time.. and maybe its time to move it to FAC.  Do you know how to do it? I havent done it before.  Sarvagnya 01:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can nominate it. But I just wanted to hear the opinions on the other Karnataka WikiProject editors who collaborated on this article to bring it till this stage. - KNM Talk 02:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this is the right time to nominate this article for FAC. You can go ahead and nominate. Gnanapiti 02:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Nomination is done, here. - KNM Talk 03:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Religion section
This section needs to be re-distributed into various other sections of the article, such as Demographics, Tourism, Culture etc. During this re-distribution, we will need to make sure there is no repetition. I have moved about 2 or 3 sentences to Tourism and removed couple of sentences which are either covered in Demographics or in Tourism, because they did seem to be repetitions. Request other editors to see whats the best way to dilute this section so that it meets FAC comments. Also, a discussion here would be a good start, incase if we are not sure where to move. Thanks. - KNM Talk 18:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We can integrate religion section with culture section after which minor re-arrangements, copy edits might be needed. But for now, religion section can be safely incorporated into culture section. I'll go ahead and make the changes. Feel free to revert back if you feel it's inappropriate. Or if you think some content must be present in some other section and not in culture section, go ahead and make changes. Gnanapiti 19:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Integrating religion with the Culture section is the best option imo.  Infact, we could even perhaps just make it a subsection of the culture section on the lines of the Climate section under Geography.  But I guess some sentences have already been moved to other sections...  I'll take another look and see if i can come up with suggestions.  Sarvagnya 19:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggested rewording of the Government section
As I have commented in the FAC also, the current section gives the impression that the Karnatak has a "presidential system" of government with the Governor playing the role of the President. Here is a suggested rewording of the section, which sounds better to me. I have also added a few wikilinks and reworded some sentences. Karnataka has a parliamentary system of government with two democratically elected state legislatures, the Legislative Assembly and the Legislative Council. The Legislative Assembly consists of 224 members who are elected for five-year terms. The Legislative Council is a permanent body which consists of 75 members with one-third of its members retiring every two years.

The majority in the Legislative Assembly chooses the Chief Minister who serves as the head of government and, along with his council of ministers, drives the legislative agenda and exercises most of the executive powers. The constitutional and formal head of state, though, is the Governor appointed to a five year term by the President of India on the advice of the union government. The citizens of Karnataka are represented in the union government through direct election of 28 members to the Lok Sabha, the lower house of the Indian Parliament, while the state assembly elects 12 members to the Rajya Sabha, the upper house.

For administrative purposes, Karnataka has been divided into four revenue divisions, 49 sub-divisions, 27 districts, 175 taluks and 745 hoblies/revenue circles for administrative purposes. The administration is each district is headed by a Deputy Commissioners who belongs to the Indian Administrative Service and is assisted by a number of officers belonging to Karnataka state services. The Deputy Commisioner of Police, an officer belonging to the Indian Police Service, is entrusted with the responsibility of maintaining law and order and related issues in the district. He in turn is assisted by the officers of the Karnataka Police Service. Apart from them, a Deputy Conservator of Forests, an officer belonging to the Indian Forest Service, also serves the government. Sectoral development is looked after by the district head of each development department such as Public Works Department, Health, Education, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, etc.

The judiciary in the state consists of the Karnataka High Court (Attara Kacheri) in Bangalore, District and Session courts in each district, and lower courts and judges at the taluka level.

Politics in Karnataka has been dominated by three political parties, the Indian National Congress, the Janata Dal (Secular) and the Bharatiya Janata Party. Politicians from Karnataka have played prominent roles in federal government of India with some of them having held the high positions of Prime Minister and Vice President.

The official emblem of Karnataka has a Ganda Berunda in the centre. Surmounting this are four lions facing the four directions, taken from Lion Capital of Asoka at Sarnath. The emblem also carries two Sharabhas with the face of an elephant and the body of a lion.

Abecedare 17:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds better for me too and I'm with rewording of the section as above. Gnanapiti 17:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Gnanpati, with your concurrence, and hearing no objections, I have gone ahead and substituted the above reworded verion of the section into the article. Abecedare 19:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the effort you put in. Gnanapiti 00:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The current version looks certainly better than the earlier, and lot more clear to the casual reader. Thanks for the re-write, Abecedare. - KNM Talk 23:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Statehood of Mysore
These two sentences seem to contradict each other (at least to a naive reader): In 1950, Mysore became an Indian state of the same name; the former Maharaja served as its Rajpramukh (head of state) until 1975. The Ekikarana Movement, which began in the late 19th century, culminated in the formation of the state of Mysore on November 1, 1956, nine years after India's independence. Can someone clarify the issue ? Thanks. Abecedare 06:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * k.. let me clarify. In 1950, what was Mysore kingdom became a state of India.  It was called 'Mysore' and only included about a third of what is now Karnataka.  In 1956, other Kannada speaking areas were added to the Mysore state and the Mysore state came to include all that is now Karnataka.  So territory-wise, nothing has changed since 1956.  But the name changed from "Mysore" to "Karnataka" in 1973.  And since 1973, neither name nor territory has changed.  Hope this clarifies.  And I leave the rewording to you.  Please.  Thanks.  Sarvagnya 10:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification, Sarvagnya! I have reworded a couple of sentences (diff) in the History section to distinguish between the formation of the Mysore state and its expansion and also specify that the Kannada language played a role in the consolidation. Please review to make sure that I got it right.
 * And, congrats to KNM, Gnanapati, Dinesh, you et al on earning the star! Abecedare 00:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes the rewording is perfect except that you could change "..several Kannada speaking regions of the country including..." to something like ''"...Kodagu and Kannada speaking regions from the adjoining states(erstwhile) of Madras, Hyd, Bombay etc...".  Thanks a lot for your efforts too especially for rewriting the Govt., section.  Sarvagnya 01:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. I think adding "the adjoining states" is especially useful. I left out the erstwhile, since including it parsing the sentence seems to be difficult. Further revison are of course welcome. Abecedare 01:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Map of Karnataka
The map of Karnataka needs to be changed to include Ramanagara and Chickaballapura districts.

Also in the subhead "Districts of Karnataka", Bangalore Urban District is mentioned as Bangalore Rural District and vice versa. This also needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.101.103.162 (talk) 06:04, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

NPOV in Intro
I think we have an NPOV problem in the last paragraph of the info. 76.217.109.179 14:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Review
The article is good except for a few issues, some of them major.
 * The ==Government and administration== section could mention "Like other Indian states ..." or some such to avoid the impression that Karnataka follows a different system.
 * Done. Thanks, - KNM Talk 15:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There are some one-line and two-line paras that could be merged.
 * Done in "Government and administration" section. Will correct if found in other sections. Thanks, - KNM Talk 15:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The TOC is somewhat long. Is it not possible to merge some sections (e.g. language under culture)?
 * Some of the other Indian state FA's have 20 (Sikkim) and 21 (Kerala) items in their TOC. Also, the culture section is already relatively lengthy and comprehensive. During the FAC, we had to merge another section "Religion" into "Culture" section. So merging again the language section would not be a good idea. Also, the language section is very compressed, and certainly deserves its own section. Thanks - KNM Talk 15:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with KNM. The culture section is large already, after clubbing of the Religion section to it in FAC. Adding Language section to it would only make it worse.Dineshkannambadi 15:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * "The government of Karnataka is headed by the Chief Minister who is chosen by a majority vote of the members in the Legislative Assembly." This is inaccurate. A vote happens only when there's a confidence-seeking motion or a no-confidence motion is tabled. The choice is made by the Governor even before that on receive letters of support from parties/MLAs. Should be reworded.
 * Done. Thanks, - KNM Talk 15:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Belgaum border dispute is not mentioned anywhere. It is long standing and significantly notable considering that the city corporation itself passed a resolution demanding reorganisation of the boundary.
 * IMO, it doesn't fit into this highly compressed summary style article. But that's just my opinion. - KNM Talk 15:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with KNM. Because, if the Belgaum issue needs to be mentioned, so should the Mahajan commission findings, the award of Sholapur regions to Karnataka, the award of Kasargod to Karnataka. All these issues are long standing. Just because the Belgaum city commission declared themselves independent of Karnataka does not make it notable, only un-democratic.Dineshkannambadi 15:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In that case, mentioning all these under a single blanket sentence covering state reorganisation related issues and moving the specifics to footnotes will be a good idea. That'll address the WP:UNDUE concern as well. Isn't it? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 15:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * As KNM mentioned earlier, in a summary styled article, perhaps this is too minute an issue. Some info on this exists in the respective district pages as such. Conflicts such as this exist in most states in India and IMO is best left to the newspapers. I dont think modern published encyclopedias carry the Belgaum issue. If it can be shown that this is standard information in an encyclopedia, then we can consider it.Dineshkannambadi 15:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * IMO, though, this article can accommodate that single sentence per my earlier suggestion. It won't be undue, but actually WP:NPOV. Also, a balanced sentence like that written by seasoned editors here will prevent newbies from writing undue and sometimes poorly worded sentences disrupting prose flow when the article is featured on the main page. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 16:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and added a single sentence mentioning the three border disputes as the history has nothing post-States reorganisation. These are supported by citations. Feel free to reword the sentence for clarity. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Can Dinesh, KNM et al., please fix these? After fixing this, a copyedit would help. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 09:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick fixes and clarifications, KNM. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 15:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)