Talk:Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryū

Description houjou kata
Can this be added to the table describing the hojo kata?

User:SvGeloven 2006 07 10

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-- Sasuke Sarutobi 22:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Article quality
As requested by SvGeloven, I have read through the article and made a few changes. I believe this article is worthy of at least 'Good Article' status with the following improvements:


 * Better referencing - at present, there are no references for this article. I've added a reference section at the bottom (with a link to a referencing guide), as well as marking what I believe to be key points for this article. Citation of densho or their translations (if extant for Jikishinkage-ryū)
 * Proof-read for language and grammar - there are sections which have a few grammatical flaws. They are not major, but enough to moderately disrupt the fluency of the article.
 * Translations - some terms have incomplete or unstable translations. Translations should be verified and provide appropriate characters.

The article can also be checked against the Good Article criteria, but I believe these are the areas requiring the greatest attention. -- Sasuke Sarutobi 02:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What's up with all of the bullets (or whatever they are) separating syllables in all of the Japanese words? They strike me as very distracting, making it more difficult to read the words. They aren't called for by any wikimanual I'm aware of. Also, some of the sections are pretty listy, that tends to be heavily criticized by reviewers. I'll do some copyediting, but I'm hesitant to touch the lists. Those should be rewritten in prose form (as much as is practical; occasionally, lists are appropriate) by someone familiar enough with the material to make smart decisions about what is and is not best included in the article. There's lots of good and useful information here, but needs some substantial cleanup to merit GA status. Bradford44 16:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review
The article has been sent for peer review with the comments being found here. I made several and think that once they and other comments are addressed the article can bu submitted for GA status. The total lack of citations is enough by the way to demote this article to Start class but since that is most easily fixed I will leave it as B-class. By way of example I've just submitted Shinto Muso-ryu for GA review.Peter Rehse 02:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Shindo Muso Ryu and Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryū
To whom it may concern:

I've worked a bit on this article by adding a lot of the kanji and correcting some of the terminology, history, lineage, and content.

Please note that Shinto Muso Ryu (or Shindo Muso Ryu) is neither a derivitive nor antecedent school of Jiki Shinkage Ryu. Both schools have their origins partly in Kashima Shin Ryu, but the two systems as they have been preserved today have little or nothing in common. (I've traned in Shindo Muso Ryu since 1975 and Jiki Shinkage Ryu since 1978.) I recommed you remove any reference to Shinto Muso Ryu in the Jiki Shinkage Ryu article (and vice versa).

I've tried to correct blatant errors but someone keeps putting in more all the time. As noted above, I trained in Jiki Shinkage Ryu in Japan under Namiki Sensei (18th headmaster) and Ito Sensei (19th headmaster) for many years beginning in 1978. I'm pretty familiar with most of the JSR groups there. With Namiki Sensei's permission I've been teaching JSR in the US for a number of years now and am very familiar with the system. Consequently I don't understand why the group in Hungary lists the kata they've added as part of Jiki Shinkage Ryu. They, of course, can add whatever they want. However, adding kata in a dojo in Hungary does not make it part of Jiki Shinkage Ryu. The JSR kata sets were pretty much established by 1700 in Japan. I have documents dating from the 16, 17, and 1800s which confirm the "stability" of the sets of kata we do today. It is, I believe, misleading to present their "new" kata as part of JSR.

Thanks.

David A. Hall Head Instructor, Hobyokan Rockville, MD david.hall@montgomerycollege.edu

David A. Hall 15:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)David A. Hall, 13 July 2007


 * Mr. Hall, thank you for your contributions. I just wanted to let you know that the reason SMR is listed as a descendant of KSJSR is because Muso Gonnosuke, the founder of SMR, studied KSJSR (and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu) prior to founding SMR (and if the Muso Gonnosuke or SMR articles are incorrect on this point, we should fix it).  Thus, in the loose sense in which we are using the term "descendant", SMR is a descendant of JSR, as Muso's studies of JSR presumably influenced (on some level) his formulation of SMR. We aren't requiring evidence of direct techical relationships, but are trying to create a useful network of linking arts whose histories have intersected in some way. The body of an article should, of course, always be clear as to the exact nature and extent of such intersections or relationships. I hope that clears things up a bit.  Please respond if you have any questions. Bradford44 17:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I've been concerned about the translation of "Kashima Shinto Jikishinkage-ryu" for some time now, is it accurate and in line with how the school itself translates its name? Bradford44 17:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Greetings. Perhaps I can help shed some light..or more likely cast darkness over it. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten claims it was KJR that Muso Gonnosuke trained in. Matsui Kenji in his "History of Shinto Muso-ryu" the claim is Kashima Shinryu. And yet another author (Dave Lowry) claims it was actually Kashima Shinto-ryu that Muso Gonnosuke trained in. As you see its not easy to get a straight answer.


 * What all these authors agree upon however is that Muso Gonnosuke was taught the secret Ichi-no-tachi technique/kata/principle. But if I'm not mistaken, that secret technique is found in all three above-mentioned Kashima schools in one form or another. I believe you are correct and that we should remove the KJR reference.


 * Thank you for your contribution. Fred26 17:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Year Yamada Jirokichi passed away
Yamada Jirokichi 山田次朗吉 was born in 1863 and passed away in 1930, according to the initial data in this article. However, the following article states that he passed away in 1931. KATEIGAHO International Edition (KIE), JAPAN'S ARTS & CULTURE, 2008 WINTER ISSUE VOL. 18, Mastering Budo, pages 70 - 73. ISBN 9784418071432. What is the exact year that he passed away? Also more information on Yamada Jirokichi is very welcome for a separate article. SvGeloven (talk) 22:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Year Matsumoto Bizen-no-Kami was born
Matsumoto Bizen-no-Kami 松本備前守 was born in 1467, according to the book Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. However the book Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu by Masaru Iwasa 2005 states that he as born in 1468. What is the exact year that he was born? SvGeloven (talk) 17:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Separate article for Shinbukan
I would like to propose to split off the detailed information regarding Shinbukan to a separate article to make this article less technical and more to the point. Please let me know here if you are in favour or not. SvGeloven (talk) 12:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I think, try your best! --Tsubaki Sanjuro (talk) 10:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I have offloaded the shinbukan kata already for the following reasons. The article has embedded lists that need to be solved and the article is too technical. The particular text is parked here below and when someone feels like, can include it in a special articla on shinbukan and its specific exceptions.

Shinbukan kata

The classical kata listed above are only practiced by Kimiyoshi Suzuki's students in Shinbukan when preparing for these specifically. Within Shinbukan normally the following kata are being practiced.

SvGeloven (talk) 19:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Copyvio ?
Good morning. I am currently translating this article to french, and as usual, I am checking in the same time the references bringed for the text. It seems that, for a large part, the history section was pasted from an external site (which was under copyright from 2005 to 2008) as this part seems having been added in 2007. Can someone check it again ? Thanks a lot, Grimlock (talk) 09:27, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Please contact the author that made the contribution a personal message and contact the maintainer of the jikishinkageryu.eu website. Especially regarding the comments found on this page I am also curious to what is incorrect or not applicable. I have already moved some parts that were specific for that group/style to the discussion page. If that group/style wants, they can create separate article with the differences applicable for them. Nevertheless, what 'they' have contributes and is applicable to all groups or simply a part of history and lineage, that should be corrected for possible errors and remain in the main article, I think. In any case, the particular passages can be editted so tehy are 'derived' work with proper reference. SanshinkaiAikidoUtrecht (talk) 15:04, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ I have sent a mail to the webmaster. We must now wait a while. Grimlock (talk) 18:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't know what to say...
There is no official Seito-ha, because all the Sensei's became part of the Hykurenkai group at one time. The Head Master Hayakawa-Sensei dropped the Hyakurenkai group and formed the Souhonbu group which is the only official KSJ group recognized in Japan right now. Yamada, Jirokichi did not officially receive Menkyo by Sakibara-Sensei and most people know this in Japan.

Please figure this out for yourselves, the official body of JSK is represented by Kobudou Shinkou Kai or the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Can your teachers be a member of this offical Budo Association representing JSK?

None of you are doing anything wrong and I appreciate your passion, but you are not publishing the right information and even when it is corrected it is replaced with the same wrong information. It is human nature to get a filtered down version as the generations pass on the Art, but being out of Japan doesn't give this site the proper attention that is necessary.

Though, the interpretations of the Hojo and some of the other Kata are close and written well in some cases.

I would like to suggest that you take all the lineage out and just focus on your own school's interpretation of JSK. Someday a real version will be written that will aid people in their quest with JSK, but it won't come from this resource - it has to be cleaned up.

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