Talk:Kashrut/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Evanh2008 (talk · contribs) 02:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a decent article overall, and I feel it is very close to Good Article status. The referencing situation is excellent in some areas and abysmal in others. I have some concerns that I'll list below. Once these have been addressed I'll give it another look for problems I may have missed.


 * Lead section

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There are some non-summary statements here (statements of information that does not appear in the article in violation of WP:LEAD, which says that the lead should summarise the article, not introduce unique information). I would prefer to see the sentence beginning "Kosher can also refer to anything" be removed from the lead but worked into the article if possible, perhaps in the "Linguistics" subsection. It will need a source, though. "The word kosher has become English vernacular" may also belong here. In any case, it doesn't belong in the lead.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The modern appearance of widespread certification should be mentioned here.


 * Prohibited foods

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Most of these bullet points are missing full stops/periods at the end of sentences. Since the first one, being made of several sentences, requires it, I would recommend using it on all of them.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "completely" in "completely cloven hooves" is redundant, I think. To my knowledge, there aren't any partially cloven-hooved animals (I could be wrong; please let me know if I am).

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "locust on which" ---> "locust, on which" - punctuation.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "liver which" ---> "liver, which" - As above.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Link shechita on first mention.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure why the bullet point on ever min ha-chai has those two tags. They can be removed, but with regard to the mention of the law applying to non-Jews, I would probably link Noahide laws somewhere. That statement also needs a source, so the tag is correct in that regard, unless the Forst ref covers this.

I'm not sure that's a good idea, because the links at the end of that sentence lead to the tithes in Jewish law, but tithe is about tithes in general. - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Link tithe on first mention.
 * I've just checked, and you are correct. No problem, then. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 04:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Link Passover.

While it's forbidden to graft trees, it's okay to eat fruit that grew from such trees. - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This might fall under kil'ayim, but isn't there a prohibition against fruit from trees that have had branches of other species grafted onto them? I might be misremembering this, but if there is such a prohibition, it probably should be mentioned.
 * In that case, thanks for the clarification. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 04:04, 15 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Permitted and forbidden animals

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The mention of "an extra toe" has a clarification needed tag.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "simanim" should be italicised. There are two tags that need to be addressed in this sentence as well.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 17:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm uncertain that the mention of Karaite opinions on turkey is necessary, as it's the first and only time Karaites are mentioned in the article, and I know there are also Karaite opinions on milk/meat mixtures and on slaughter that don't square with rabbinic norms. These aren't mention, so I don't think the turkey issue vis a vis Karaites should be either.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the grilling process used for organs other than the liver (I can't think of any, but I could be wrong)? If not, it's probably best to remove "organs rich in blood" and just go for "the liver, which is rich in blood," or something similar.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Fish (and locusts, for those Sephardi Jews who agree that they are both kosher and edible)" - This sentence lacks a source.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Italicise and de-link "Shviit".

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Some rules of kashrut are not universally observed: the rule against eating chadash (new grain) before the 16th of the month Nisan; many hold that this rule does not apply outside the Land of Israel." - This sentence is grammatically awkward. I would suggest rephrasing it to: "Some rules of kashrut are not universally observed. For example, many hold that the rule against eating chadash (new grain) before the 16th of Nisan does not apply outside the Land of Israel." Also, the statements here need a source.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The entire "Vegetables" section is unsourced.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Pareve foods" needs sources. I have no doubt about the accuracy of its content, but it has to be referenced. I think the "Mayonnaise" sentence could be trimmed out, if that helps.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "and therefore (like all kosher fish products) pareve" ---> "and is therefore (like all kosher fish products) pareve"


 * Explanations

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "God's authority and man" ---> "God's authority, and man"

Looking... - Ypnypn (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The sentence on Philio, the Church Fathers, and Rabbi Hirsch needs a source.
 * ✅ for the latter; deleted the first two. - Ypnypn (talk) 18:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The two paragraphs on Chassidus and "sparks" should probably be merged. Sources look okay here.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "the distinct status of Jews" ---> "their distinct status as Jews"


 * Supervision and marketing

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * De-link gvinat akum.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Such 'hidden' ingredients..." - This sentence lacks a source.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Furthermore, certain products, such as fish, have a high rate of mislabeling which may substitute a non-kosher fish into a package labeled as a species of kosher fish." ---> "Furthermore, certain products, such as fish, have a high rate of mislabeling, which may result in a non-kosher fish being sold in a package labeled as a species of kosher fish."

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The second through sixth paragraphs of the "Product labeling standards" are in desperate need of sources.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "nonkosher products" ---> "non-kosher products" - Hyphen.

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "History of kosher marketing" and "Legal usage" are completely unsourced.


 * General comments

✅ - Ypnypn (talk) 18:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Biblical verses are sometimes linked, and sometimes not. While I won't refuse to list the article if this isn't addressed, I'd like to see Template:Bibleref implemented across this article wherever verses are given. Alternatively, if you think it would be more appropriate to link to Mechon-Mamre or Chabad.org or another site with a Jewish translation, that's okay too.


 * Most of the sources look reliable. I have concerns about a few but won't mention them until I've checked them out further.

Overall, this is not a bad article. With the addition of some reliable sources where appropriate, we should be at Good Article status in no time. If you have any questions, please let me know. I'll be placing it on hold in the meantime. Thanks! Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 02:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've fixed ~ 1/2 of your points; I'll try to do the rest tomorrow. (See sleep deprivation.-) - Ypnypn (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone through nearly everything. I'll look for a source for Philio, the Church Fathers, and Rabbi Hirsch, and I'll try to do the verses linking when I have a chance. - Ypnypn (talk) 17:39, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After quite a bit of searching, I've found nothing for Philio and the Church Fathers. I've located a source for Rabbi Hirsch, though. I've also added bibleref with a link to the JPS Judaica Press translation. - Ypnypn (talk) 18:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, great! I mentioned the other sites because I wasn't sure that the template had Jewish translations available to choose from, but having them in template format is preferable, obviously. I may take a second look and pony up some references myself for Philo and the Church Fathers, if only for breadth of coverage. Right now, everything looks pretty good. I'll give it a second pass tomorrow. For now, I have to sleep. Thanks for all your work so far! Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 10:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a note, JPS Tanakh is not available online. The Bibleverse template with the tag HE is the 1917 JPS translation. The Bibleverse template with the tag JPR (which is used in the Kashrut article) is the Judaica Press with Rashi's commentary. --PiMaster3 talk 19:11, 15 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've gone ahead and listed the article, as I'm satisfied that it now meets the GA criteria. There are some further places where it could use some fine-tuning, but those would probably be better addressed at a venue like FAC. Thanks for all your great work on the article! Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 04:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)