Talk:Kate Millett

Questions
-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 09:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) I cannot find the book "Believe me, you don't want a picture of that!, 1991" - Is this a real book?
 * 2) There are much better pictures of her than the one used in the article. Does anyone know of a better one in the public domain?

Expansion of personal life info
While confined, she was heavily drugged aka tortured. Reference?

—  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.121.230 (talk) 00:18, 11 September 2017 (UTC) and others,

In User:CaroleHenson/Kate Millett - personal life sub page, I've just finished the initial work on "mental illness" (i.e., need to copy edit, very likely need a better heading) and still have to get to family relationships. It seems like this might be more detail than is needed -- but, it also could be that the detail provides greater insight into her life. Any thoughts about condensing the info, leaving it alone, other?

Your input will help me determine, too, how much family info to put in. Thanks!-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 18:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The new content looks great! It has useful information on Millett's mental health, family, and activism, and on the interplay between those three, that's well-written and well-cited. There are a few small wording changes I would make - most notably, the third paragraph mentions "Millett's sister" but it's not clear which sister it is. But overall, I'm very much looking forward to all of this being integrated into the main article. Korny O&#39;Near (talk) 22:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks that's helpful! I'll make the edit you suggested. If there are other wording changes, feel free to made the edits.


 * I'm surprised that there hasn't been any input about summarizing / reducing the amount of content - and it doesn't sound like that's a concern of yours - so I'll proceed. Much appreciated!-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 23:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I've completed the work on the work page and integrated the content into the article. I've done some copy-editing and I think I caught most of the issues, but will do another run-through. If you catch any needed edits - or find that I didn't capture the info correctly - your input is appreciated! Thanks!-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 22:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

RE: Mental Illness section:
June 8, 2019 12:30 pm

Hello - It seems to me that the Mental Illness section of the KM bio ought to be preceded by a WP editor's recommendation of the following type:

"This section is written like a personal reflection, personal essay, or argumentative essay that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings or presents an original argument about a topic. Please help improve it by rewriting it in an encyclopedic style. (Learn how and when to remove this template message)"

Reason: I suggest this insofar as the Mental Illness entry moves between description and judgmentalism - the latter appearing to reflect Kate Millet's subjective views and then echoed or relayed without objectifying distancing by the the section's author.

Such opinions can be framed as attributed to KM or as attributed to authorities or friends and thus included in a way that the entry does not "take sides" in the controversy. Otherwise it seems inappropriate in an enclyclopedia to adopt the frame of K Millet herself without neutrality. Were the author to take a more distanced approach, K Millet's presented symptoms of mania & depression, history of hospitalizations, inappropriate behavior and both involuntary & voluntary resort to psychotropic medications for bipolar disorder and her views on psychiatry could be properly attributed & acknowledged and her arguments put into perspective in a neutral fashion, rather than appear to adopt her view point as definitive.

Examples which appear unobjective include:

"Millett became depressed, particularly so about having been confined without due process." (inferential)

"Her behavior was that of psychiatric drug withdrawal, including "mile-a-minute" speech, which turned her peaceful art colony to "a quarrelsome dystopia." - This is inferential as pressured speech and difficult behavior (such as quarrelsomeness) are alternatively explicable as a relapse, which her friends recognized as her needing resumption of lithium and rehospitalization.

"She was involuntarily committed in Ireland after airport security "determined from someone in New York" that she had a "mental illness" and had stopped taking lithium.[18] Perhaps she was disruptive at the airport and authorities were advised she had pre-existing mental illness previously treated.  Otherwise this sentence reads as if this was an unjustified use of authority assisted by a (valid) informal report of her hisory of mental illness. Millet's subsequent decompensation in NYC requiring further hospitalization points to the wisdom of her friends and authorities that she needed if not required evaluation and possible treatment whilst in Dublin's airport.

"Millett's involvement with psychiatry caused her to attempt suicide several times due to both damaging physical and emotional effects but also because of the slanderous nature of psychiatric labeling that affected her reputation and threatened her very existence in the world." Again, while indeed stigmatization and actual or subjectively interpreted mistreatment by psychiatric professionals or institutions indeed may and do compound problems due to one's illness itself, its seems inappropriate in an encyclopedia entry to adopt the view of the patient whole without caveat, distance or balance. Her suicide attempts are also consistent with bi polar depressive episodes, personality disorder, and to use adjectives as "slanderous" or that psychiatric interventions which may also have saved her life are characterized as "threatening her existence". This undermines trust in the entry author's contribution. Mcha6677 (talk) 16:42, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Quote
A fairly minor point but do we really need to link genteel in the quote "a life of genteel poverty"? WP:MOSQUOTE says do not link inside quotes and I would have thought genteel was a fairly common English word, although perhaps that is my British background skewing impressions. - Sitush (talk) 10:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how much the word is used among the younger generation, but if you'd like to remove it, that's cool with me.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 10:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh, and you might want to consider using efn with notelist in future; that seems to have superseded the #tag:ref construct for footnotes. I see that you've picked up on what appear to be fairly recent changes to the cite parameters: the addition of the subscription= field is particularly useful for quality articles, where previously I found myself having to use subscription required. Anything that reduces the amount of misplaced brackets I have to fix is progress! - Sitush (talk) 10:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Great points, . Thanks, I'll check out the notes options. I am sooo with you about the misplaced brackets issue!-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 02:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

An odd bit
I read:


 * Millett visited Ireland in the fall of 1980 as an activist. Upon her return the United States, there was a delay at the airport and she decided to extend her stay. Millett was involuntarily committed in Ireland after airport security determined from someone in New York that she stopped taking lithium.

This makes little sense to me. It's sourced to something to which I don't have access, and I don't want to subject it to my guesswork, which would go something like: upon her intended return to the US, there was a delay to the departure and she decided not to wait and instead to extend her stay. She was involuntarily committed because, because, er, what? (Is it normal to be committed for failure to take a prescribed drug?)

Somebody with access to Highbeam, please check. -- Hoary (talk) 07:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Here's the info from the article:
 * " That fall she went to Ireland, to the land of her father's people. She spoke in the Irish parliament; she met political radicals supporting the IRA and couldn't go along with them, because of her lifelong pacifism. And on her way home, she got delayed at the airport, then decided to stay on for a bit.


 * The airport security officials called New York, somehow found out that she'd stopped taking lithium and threw her into an Irish mental hospital where she was drugged and kept incommunicado for days."
 * I'll work on it.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 18:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Reworded to:
 * Millett visited Ireland in the fall of 1980 as an activist. Upon her intended return to the United States, there was a delay at the airport and she extended her stay in Ireland. Millett was involuntarily committed in Ireland after airport security determined from someone in New York that she had a mental illness and had stopped taking lithium.[16]-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 18:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding the question: "Is it normal to be committed for failure to take a prescribed drug?" - Boy, I circled on that myself quite a bit. My guess has been that her behavior was very erratic when she first tried to leave Ireland... which caused the security officials to call someone in New York. It still seems strange to me that she would have been committed, but there must have been an initial trigger of some sort.
 * Anyway, thanks for pointing out the need to reword this a bit. See what you think based upon the content from the article.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 18:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's much better; thank you. (I'd cut "from someone in New York" as unnecessarily mystifying, but it's a matter of taste.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, great! I think I'll leave the "from someone in New York" - it sounds even more mysterious to me without it.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 01:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, great! I think I'll leave the "from someone in New York" - it sounds even more mysterious to me without it.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 01:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

linking from within quotations

 * Biographer Roberta M. Hooks wrote, "Quite apart from any feminist polemics, The Basement can stand alone as an intensely felt and movingly written study of the problems of cruelty and submission."

I think this linking raises several points. First, when she wrote that, did she link "polemic" to the Wikipedia article so titled? I doubt this. Secondly, if she didn't link it, are we distorting what she wrote by linking it? I don't always agree with MoS, but (happily cherry-picking away) I do agree when it says: "Items within quotations should not generally be linked; instead, consider placing the relevant links in the surrounding text or in the "See also" section of the article."

And thirdly, the article "Polemic" doesn't strike me as helpful here. "Polemic" isn't a particularly elusive word; readers of an article on [insert gruesome example of bubble-gum "popular culture" here] might need it explained, but those of an article on Millett probably don't, and would probably be better served by a dictionary if they did. -- Hoary (talk) 02:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh my goodness! If there's a guideline not to link within quotes, that's good enough for me. I removed the link.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 03:07, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Going for featured article?
Hi ,

Thanks so much for your great edits! Are you making the edits to prep for a Feature article nomination?

If so, there were some recommendations from the GA review and I'd be happy to chip in on those items.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 02:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Er. . . . I had a look in the cited source, and could only see "Lesbian" (with an "n"). My change has been reverted to a combination of "Lesbia" (which I didn't notice in the source, though I could have been inattentive) and "Lesiba" (surely wrong), and an unneeded semicolon has crept back in.


 * No, sorry, I don't have an FA in mind. FA candidature normally brings up content questions, and I don't have any sources to hand.


 * I'm not sure why I arrived here. I know next to nothing about KM and have no memory of ever reading anything by her. One of my minor pastimes is to land on what looks like a pretty good article on a subject of which I know nothing, and see if I can improve it. (I like to think that I'm sufficiently aware of the [considerable] dangers of editing from a state of ignorance, but of course I may get it wrong.)


 * If you did want to move toward FA, then I can immediately think of two discrete areas to work on. KM's late relationship with her mother is described first in the context of the book that's about it, and secondly in the context of personal life. There's considerable overlap. I'm not at all sure of what the best solution would be, and that's one reason why I haven't touched this.


 * Secondly, her list of books could be a lot better. Sample: "Sexual Politics. University of Illinois Press. 2000 [1969]. ISBN 978-0-252-06889-8." I think that the publication details of the first edition(s) should be provided, though those of subsequent editions could be added too. (First editions [plural], if, say, the book was simultaneously put out by a US and a British publisher.)


 * I'd invite some knowledgable editor around for a tinker, then think about FAC. -- Hoary (talk) 08:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding Lesbia Erotica vs. Lesbian Erotica - I read Lesbia Erotica so consistently in review articles, like this so often that I hadn't questioned it. I wonder if that was the title for the European galleries because in a google search there are a lot more "Lesbian Erotica" hits. And, yep, I see the cited source sas "Lesbian". So, Lesbian looks like the best fit.


 * Mother Millett is a tricky thing. I moved it into the "career" sections based upon feedback from the GA review. I don't know how to avoid overlap in the personal section, unless it's moved back to the personal life section, because the book really sums up the family dynamics. I'll think about this a bit...


 * It seems like there's more tinkering (first edition info for books - adding missing publishers / locations to citations) + some expansion of her career section. I will likely return to this later. I was just looking to help pitch in if you were looking to take it to FAC.


 * Thanks so much for the polishing!-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 09:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm not the man for the job. But the article will be on my watchlist for a little time longer; and time permitting, I'll look in now and again to see if something can be tinkered with beneficially.


 * As for no-"n" "Lesbia", if this often appears in other sources, I wonder if the source cited here might have added a spurious "n". -- Hoary (talk) 09:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced statements and reverted edits
I see that there have been some edits that I fear could jeopardize the article's Good article status, one of which is the addition of unsourced material. The following was added to the article without a source:
 * Ms. Millett was nominated by her long time friend, trusted colleague and comrade in the mental patients' rights movement, Myra Kovary.
 * In June 2012, Ms. Millett was honored by the Veteran Feminists of America at an event held at the famed Judson Church in New York City, where Millett also bestowed the coveted Kate Millett Award on a leader of the women's movement in the United States, Jacqueline Ceballos.

Does anyone know of a source for this statement?

Also, other changes I'm seeing are: 1) introduction of external links within the body of the article, which I have removed (See. WP:External links) and embedding new information in a properly cited sentence. If information is added to the article that's not covered by the existing source, then an additional source is needed for the information. I am positive these are all good-faith edits, and thought it might help if I explained why the edits were reverted.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * In addition, adding oclc's to list of books are nice when there's no ISBNs - but the correct oclcs for the book edition (year, location, publisher) should be used. A few have now been corrected.


 * Although some sources don't capitalize the titles of books, they should be properly capitalized for GA articles, so some of the titles have been corrected/reverted to the earlier version.-- CaroleHenson (talk) 14:24, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Mallory Millett
Hello ,

I reverted the information about Mallory Millet here because: 1) This article is about Kate, 2) there is some information about Mallory in the article, 3) the information was added to a section that does not make sense (in the midst of the information about her career), and 4) I don't see the point of the info, other than to promote the sister.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Copying comment from at my talk page:
 * My changes to Kate Millett's Wikipedia page were completely legitimate and your assertions to the contrary reveal a desire to have the page remain as a polemic or worse, an encomium. My inclusion of Mallory Millett's article contributes to a thoughtful, disciplined, and diverse biographical entry. Adding a brief section on what Kate Millett's own sister thought of her writings provides background information a reader deserves to hear.Melvin toast (talk) 17:41, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * –CaroleHenson (talk) 17:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I added a note with most of the content. That seems the most appropriate edit for this information.
 * Kate Millett's sister, Mallory Millett, is Director of the David Horowitz Freedom Center and sits on the Board of Regents for the Center for Security Policy. She has also written and spoken extensively and often extremely critically of her sister's work, most recently in an article for FrontPage Magazine.


 * If anyone disagrees with this approach, besides Melvin toast, your input would be appreciated!–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:54, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Kate Millett 1978 (cropped) 2.jpg

Requesting some help
Hi,

Recently initiated a new Draft:Sexual politics and looking for proactive help in updating and expanding the article. Please do see if contributing to Draft:Sexual politics would interest you.

Thanks and regards

Bookku (talk) 03:13, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits
There has been a string of edits made, reverted/removed, and added again to the article, so I thought I'd summarize what appears to be happening:
 * Linking Paris - does not need to be linked per WP:OVERLINKING
 * Adding a citation for Millet's partner in the infobox - not needed since it's cited in the body of the article
 * Different formats for "spouses" in the infobox - I added the partner parameter for Sophie Keir

Make sense?–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I see that Sophie should have been listed as a spouse... and my edit was corrected. Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Please, can you explain your views here? I think we should keep the infobox standard. I have not seen any linking to a marriage section, etc. any thoughts? 7szz (talk) 08:08, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * There is nothing substandard about using Infobox writer. Millett is best known for her writings and it's entirely appropriate to use that template. As for linking to that section, it's wise to do so in order to contextualise the second marriage since the year of that marriage is unknown. Using just her wife's name below without anything to provide context is unhelpful to the reader and could even imply to some that she was married twice simultaneously. &#8209;&#8209;Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

A Piece of Land: Kate Millett Farm
This book appears to be self-published so we should not be listing it. It's not on Amazon, Google Books, or in Worldcat. I found one sales site that purported to have an ISBN for it, but searching for that ISBN turns up a different book. Skyerise (talk) 21:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Okay.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The book does have an ISBN, it's 9789163748196 which I found here. It appears to be an account by some visitors of the Women's Art Colony Farm which Millett founded so I would say it's fine to be placed in further reading per Identifying_and_using_self-published_works. Yes it's self-published but it's not being used for any claims. Mujinga (talk) 09:48, 26 February 2022 (UTC)


 * That's a fake ISBN. If it were a real one it could be used to look up the book on Amazon, Google, and Worldcat, but that ISBN doesn't find the book on any of this sites. We are not supposed to send people to self-published content because it has not been vetted by a publisher. And we are also not supposed to promote self-published books by listing them. That entry probably got placed by the PR team for the book. I don't think we should list it. Skyerise (talk) 11:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)


 * OK, it does find it on Worldcat, though not the others. I'll re-add it with proper author attribution. Skyerise (talk) 12:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:26, 26 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Seems like a good solution to add it like that, nice one! Mujinga (talk) 20:08, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

RfC on "Other publications" section
I am working on turning Millett's list of works into tables. My question is: Should we keep (and add) book chapters that are literal extracts of Millett's books? I presume this is the case of the 2005 anthology Feminist Theory: A Philosophical Anthology as "Theory of Sexual Politics" is a chapter from Sexual Politics. 7szz (talk) 02:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)