Talk:Kate Sheppard

Birth year
This article has always had a birth year of 1847, until an anon changed it today to 1848. There seem to be plenty of sources on the web for either date, but the later date seems more authoritative, being in, for example, the 1966 New Zealand encyclopaedia. Have the other sources been influenced by Wikipedia, or is there some genuine doubt about her birth year?- gadfium 23:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've included both birth years, with a footnote explaining that there are sources for both.- gadfium 07:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced section
An anon added the following section:
 * ==How Campaigning for the Vote affected Womens' Lives==
 * Many women wanted to the right to vote, but as many men believed that women had the intellectual skills of a young child, they did not agree with women having the right to vote. This became a cause for wives to go against the belief's of their husbands and help campaign to get women the vote. This led to an increase increase in divorces/annulments, and a decrease in marriages. Getting the vote for women meant sacrificing everything, even their families. New Zealand women knew that if they got the vote, they would play the leading role in Womens' Suffrages worldwide, and it made it seem all the more worth it. Women were extremely prevoked and taunted for wanting to get the vote, but they never once resorted to violence. Campaigning for the vote meant going through extraordinary tasks, such as giving up their days by knocking from door to door asking people to sign petitions. Some women also dressed in men's fashions, to show that they were equal to men, and should be given the right to vote. Many women were literate and could do mens' jobs; the WCTU emphasised on this fact to show everyone that women didn't have the mind of a young child, but equal to the mind of a grown man.

I think this material belongs more in Women's suffrage in New Zealand than it does here, but without a reference it is not acceptable in either article. It also needs wikification and a copyedit.- gadfium 00:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC) ☺

More about Kate Sheppard
Kate Sheppard, née Catherine Wilson Malcolm (born March 10?, 1847, Liverpool, Eng.—died July 13, 1934, Christchurch, N.Z.), English-born activist, who was a leader in the woman suffrage movement in New Zealand. She was instrumental in making New Zealand the first country in the world to grant women the right to vote (1893).

Raised and educated in Scotland, she moved to New Zealand in the late 1860s, and in 1871 she married Walter Allen Sheppard, a storekeeper. An early feminist, she believed that women should participate fully in all aspects of society, including politics. Among the causes she first adopted was dress reform for women, primarily the abolishment of corsets and other constrictive clothing. In an era when women were encouraged to be “ladylike,” she also promoted bicycling and other physical activity for women. In 1885 Sheppard joined the Women’s Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) and two years later became leader of the WCTU’s suffrage campaign. A tireless advocate, she wrote pamphlets, organized meetings and lectures, and presented a series of petitions to Parliament. Several suffrage bills failed before Parliament finally granted women the right to vote in 1893. Sheppard was later active in woman suffrage movements in other countries, including England and the United States.

In 1896 Sheppard helped establish the National Council of Women (NCW) and became its first president. Among the issues she supported were greater equality in marriage and the right of women to run for Parliament. Although poor health forced her to step down as president of the NCW in 1903, she remained a prominent figure in the women’s rights movement. Her image appears on the New Zealand $10 banknote. CITATION! <"Kate Sheppard." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2011. Web. 16 Mar. 2011. .>

Cancelschool2011 (talk) 21:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Kate Sheppard Women of Influence Award
I have removed this from the article, not because I think it never existed, but mainly because it seems to have disappeared and may be a little obscure, and especially since I've found no evidence it's an on-going thing. If more information can be found would be happy for something brief about it to be re-included in the article. Here is the text (the reference was dead, so I removed it):

"In 2016, a memorial lecture in her name was initiated – the Kate Sheppard Women of Influence Lecture. The inaugural lecture was held at Massey University's Wellington campus and the speaker was Stacey Shortall. It is planned to be an annual event, sponsored by Westpac bank."

Cheers. -- Shudde  talk 15:00, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Collaboration time?
As per the discussion on the New Zealand Wikipedians' Noticeboard some time ago, I've started working on this article. I'm quite optimistic that Featured Status is achievable in time, but I will need help. I do not have many sources, but I am going to try and get a copy of Judith Devaliant's book, as it looks like the only biography of Sheppard. I've started expanding the article, copy-editing a little, and formatting things consistently, but would of course appreciate any help. I've also added some templates at the top of this page that I think can be very useful. Do you think it may be worth placing another note of the NZ noticeboard regarding this? Cheers. -- Shudde  talk 17:32, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have limited time, but I am slowly working through Devaliant and expanding the article. One thing we will need to sort out is why although the older sources give a birth year of 1848 as that's what she wrote when she married for the second time, newer sources such as DNZB and https://nzhistory.govt.nz/people/kate-sheppard give 1847. Presumably a new source was found to give this earlier year. If nothing comes to light perhaps we should contact Te Ara about this.- gadfium 18:48, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have limited time also. Maybe a few hours a week. The birth year is not a huge problem. The way it's currently addressed using a note seems pretty adequate. We can only state what the sources say, and when we have these contradictions it's best just to make it clear best we can. -- Shudde  talk 18:55, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I can contribute a little time as well. I have a copy of Devaliant as well and will see what I can gain and add from there. Also Barbara Brookes wrote a book 'A history of New Zealand Women' which may have something. Susan Tol (talk) 21:22, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have finished my initial pass of expanding the article. Susan Tol is going through and copyediting it. The lead needs to be expanded, and the Commemoration section needs better sourcing, but these tasks do not need the reference material that Susan and I have. Are there areas in the body that need further expansion?- gadfium 02:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it probably meets the "comprehensive" criteria for a Featured Article (criteria 1b and 1c). It will need some work before it's ready for nomination though (further copyediting and making sure it fully complies with the manual of style). I'll go through and try and do something on it in the next couple of weeks, then I think a peer review would be a good idea. You've both done great work so far! -- Shudde talk 14:58, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There are a couple of suggestions for expansion, but only one where having the Devaliant is probably needed:
 * What happened to her son and his child(ren)? This is briefly mentioned but might be worth a sentence on.
 * More information might be useful on the state of suffrage in New Zealand at the point when Sheppard started getting more seriously involved in the suffrage movement (1885). This probably doesn't require sources that discuss Sheppard herself and more general sources could be used.
 * Can anything more be said about Sheppard's legacy and influence? This may require more academic sources. Did her work have an impact on suffrage movements outside New Zealand? Is there discussion in reliable sources on the methods she used to achieve her objectives and whether other political movements adopted these?
 * Those are the only things I can see after that read through. But the peer review might reveal some more. -- Shudde talk 18:07, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't have a copy of Devaliant at the moment, but will pick up a library copy tomorrow for the next 'push' on this article. As far as I recall, it doesn't give details of Douglas' death. The DNZB entry gives the most detail on his and his daughter's death.- gadfium 04:44, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I am also without a copy of Devaliant right now. I will look for other sources that match with your points above, and will be able to do some copy editing. Susan Tol (talk) 22:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

This statement needs sourcing, any ideas? Sheppard was impressed not only with the subject matter but the strength of public speaking displayed by a woman, something not witnessed often in New Zealand. -- Shudde talk 20:58, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Also this one This was tied to her advocacy for women to lead a more active lifestyle. -- Shudde talk 21:24, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry those were both me. The first was from Devaliant and I think I found the second online. Will have a look for them now and put them in. Sorry about that! Susan Tol (talk) 22:27, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I've modified the first statement; Sheppard didn't mention Leavitt in her writings, and so we have no evidence that she attended one of Leavitt's lectures, although it seems likely that she did. As a keen reader of the newspapers, she would almost certainly have read reports of them, and so there is a strong case for Leavitt as an influence. Journalists were impressed by Leavitt's speaking; I could find specific newspaper articles if necessary.
 * I've removed the "active lifestyle" sentence as there's nothing in that part of Devaliant to support it. If Susan has an alternative ref, feel free to reinstate it.- gadfium 07:59, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Great thanks! Another question regarding the following paragraph:
 * Sheppard became involved in establishing a New Zealand branch of the WCTU as part of the country's larger temperance movement.[4] Her initial involvement was promoting petitions to Parliament to prevent women being employed as barmaids, and to outlaw the sale of alcohol to children. This marked the beginning of her collaborations with Alfred Saunders, who advised her on her negotiations with politicians and who wrote to the Premier, Sir Robert Stout, seeking to further her campaign. The petitions against barmaids were rejected by the Petitions Committee of Parliament,[17] and Sheppard decided that as petitions could be ineffective, women's franchise was necessary.[21]

When exactly did she do all this? 1885? 1886? Does "Her initial involvement" refer to her involvement in the WCTU, in founding the WCTU, or in the temperance movement? -- Shudde talk 18:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Sheppard became involved in establishing a New Zealand branch of the WCTU as part of the country's larger temperance movement.
 * This was in the article when it was first created by in 2004, at that point in the "Early life" section. It was unsourced, which was acceptable at that time. The source was added by  in a series of edits on 25 June 2015. I don't have access to the source, Fleischer, and it doesn't appear to be in the Auckland public library or University of Auckland library. A couple of paragraphs later, it is clear that Sheppard didn't attend the founding conference of the NZWCTU. She did attend the foundation meeting of the Christchurch branch (since this was before the national founding, it's not clear exactly which organisation Christchurch WCTU was a branch of). The online version of the newspaper article reporting on this doesn't mention Sheppard, but Devaliant says "The first report in the Lyttelton Times stated that Mrs Shephard [sic] was nominated..." so the version in PapersPast may not be the only version of this report. I've modified the sentence.
 * I've clarified that the petition on barmaids, along with similar petitions from other parts of NZ, were presented in 1885.- gadfium 19:06, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you need me to get full access to the article in question, ? Let me know. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:53, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that would probably be useful.- gadfium 19:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * was it the Project Muse reference? Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:57, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No, the Fleischer: Rockin' the Boat: 50 Iconic Revolutionaries from Joan of Arc to Malcolm X.- gadfium 03:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * not sure if you can see the preview here, but the book is in my library. If you can't access the preview, let me know and since it's only a small part of the book, I think it would be considered fair use to copy the pages for reference checking and sourcing and I could email you. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I can see the preview for pages 152-154, which contains the significant content, so I don't think you need to copy pages for me. I see it does say unambiguously that she co-founded the NZ chapter of WCTU. Per my comments above, I think this is an over-simplification of the actual situation and I am happier with my more conservative explanation of her role in its origins.- gadfium 03:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
 * no problem! Good luck on getting this to GA! I have a little anecdote for you, though. I was talking to my friend at work who was asking me about the book. (I was carrying it around yesterday in case you needed it.) I said I had it because of the Kate Sheppard article. He said, "Who's Kate Sheppard?" so I told him and he was super impressed. So I got the chance to spread a little bit of Kate S. love in Texas. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks to all those who have been working on its improvement, it looks to me as if the article is now ready for a GA review.--Ipigott (talk) 11:23, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The "works" section is unreferenced - think this needs to be done to pass GA. MurielMary (talk) 11:27, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Interview request
Hi team, I've received an interview request, and the Radio NZ journalist specifically mentions the Kate Sheppard GA initiative. Is there anybody else interested in getting interviewed? If so, please add to the item on my talk page, or approach the journalist directly.  Schwede 66  05:24, 11 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I've emailed the journalist offering to answer any questions via email or on-wiki.- gadfium 17:46, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I emailed him and ended up speaking with him. -- Shudde talk 20:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Another interview request; this time from The New Zealand Herald. Anybody keen to speak to Moana Tapaleao? I can forward her phone number but her email address is publicly displayed on the Herald website: moana.tapaleao(at)nzherald.co.nz  Schwede 66  23:08, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Query about close paraphrasing
Hi. If we take this article to FAC then we have to be extra careful about close paraphrasing. I'm probably overparanoid about this, but is the statement Female rate payers were able to vote in local body elections in 1873 and in 1877 women "householders" were given the right to vote in and stand for education boards. in our article too similar to the source In 1873 women rate-payers were given the right to vote in local body elections and in 1877 women "householders" (that is, all adult women) were given the right to vote in and stand for school committees and education boards. ?? -- Shudde talk 20:01, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Peer review time?
Hi. I think it's nearly ready for a peer review. I'll give it another read through and a bit more of a copy-edit and then put it up for peer review. Are you both happy with this? Do you feel we are done with significant changes? -- Shudde talk 20:18, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There's still a "citation needed" for the paragraph about Merv Thompson's play, which should be dealt with before any peer review. Apart from that, it looks good to go.- gadfium 04:22, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I haven't been able to find much to change, so I'm happy with it. Will do another read through though to check Susan Tol (talk) 05:48, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Okay I've put it up for peer review, and left a request at the NZ noticeboard and on the Women in Red project talkpage asking for feedback. If we have no luck in the next few days I'll try to find some experienced FA-writers to approach. If you know any editors that could give valuable feedback on the article do message them. You can keep an eye on the peer review at Peer review/Kate Sheppard/archive1. It may be a good idea to add the page to your watchlist so that if there are any questions we are able to answer them. Cheers. -- Shudde talk 18:40, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Citation for Sheppard House at CSIS
http://www.chchsouth.ac.nz/NewsCentre/122/

Sorry, couldn't figure out how to add this to the template of the "Notes" section. MurielMary (talk) 07:50, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Year that she appeared on the $10 note?
The citation I added to the lead states 1992, but in the "Commemoration" section it states 1991. MurielMary (talk) 07:52, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There's something about the series five banknotes on the Reserve Bank website, and it states that "in mid-1991, the Reserve Bank decided to completely revise the appearance and features of New Zealand's banknotes". On the accompanying Flickr page, the sub-header states that "series 5 banknotes were first issued in 1991". To be honest, if they made the decision to revise the banknotes in mid-1991, I find it hard to believe that they got them into circulation before the year was over.  Schwede 66  08:10, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Other schools with a Sheppard House
The article only names schools in Cantebury, but there are others around the country. Should the article list more, or would it become too long and overly detailed? For example, Oteha Valley School: http://www.oteha.school.nz/about-us/houses/
 * Orewa College: http://www.orewa.school.nz/activities/house-programme/ MurielMary (talk) 07:59, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Response to Tweet
I found the article "Archival Activism: the Editors fighting Wikipedia’s Sexism Problem" this morning via Twitter.

I made a few minor changes. Feel free to revert if they are not the default.Oceanflynn (talk) 16:58, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Time for a Featured article run?
I've been distracted for the last few months, but am now ready to make this article my priority for the next six weeks. I will be unavailable for a couple of weeks sometime in August, so this would seem to be the best time as far as I am concerned to put this forward as a FA candidate.

I had not anticipated that the coming anniversary of women's suffrage would make it difficult to get the source material from public libraries in New Zealand, but the main sources now have waiting lists. Fortunately I have bought my own copy of Devaliant's work. I'm in the library queue for a copy of Grimshaw's book, and I am prepared to go into the library to use a desk copy as necessary until it arrives.

Any comments before I start the FAC process?- gadfium 21:31, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Now nominated at Featured_article_candidates/Kate_Sheppard/archive1.- gadfium 05:57, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Promoted to FA! Well done gadfium and everyone else who contributed. Nurg (talk) 11:14, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Should we create a map
For the Kathy Lynch article, I once created a map of places where she has lived (is living). Should we perhaps create a map of relevant places for Sheppard in Christchurch? This could include:
 * places she lived
 * Addington Cemetery
 * Trinity Church
 * Kate Sheppard National Memorial
 * Odeon Theatre

Regarding the Odeon Theatre, it's notable as the place where most of the 1893 campaign meetings were held. It's not mentioned in the article.  Schwede 66  21:11, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Do we have a suitable base map of Christchurch in about the 1890s?- gadfium 21:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * There's this one from 1879.  Schwede 66  00:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that the map you propose would be a good addition to the article.- gadfium 04:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, there's two ways we can proceed from here (once I have received a high-res version of the map from the library, which I requested earlier today). My preferred option would be for somebody to turn this into a location map; one would need to have GIS or CAD so that the map can be turned into something that is georeferenced. Once that's done, it can be used for this and any other article, and any editor can add location markers to it. Do we have a page watcher who can provide those specialist services? The alternative way would be to photoshop the place markers onto the image itself. Much simpler, but any changes can only be done by the editor who holds the original file, or another editor has to start from scratch.  Schwede 66  09:36, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Right, I've put a mock up together. This is on a map base with rather poor resolution. Some thoughts:
 * It is stated that library staff believe that there is no copyright on the map. Given that it's from 1879 and was published by the Lyttelton Times (which went bust in 1935), this is certainly true.
 * In addition, there's a standard disclaimer that goes with these maps: "This material has been provided for private study purposes (such as school projects, family and local history research) and any published reproduction (print or electronic) may infringe copyright law." That's outside of the spirit of what Commons requires. That said, if it's outside of copyright I can't see how such a standard disclaimer could possibly apply.
 * Either way, it's probably worth running this by somebody who is a copyright expert., could you take a look, please?


 * You'll want to add a publication date and US PD tag to the image description page, but it shouldn't be an issue. Also, non-copyright-related, you'll want a source for the coordinates you've added to the base map. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Does anyone know where on Madras Street she lived with her husband? Madras is the north-south street underneath the "r" of Tuam Street Hall.
 * Right, now to the high-resolution option. For the privilege of copying the original file to a place from where I could download it, they want to see $30. No big drama. But before I make that "donation", I thought I'd clarify that everyone is happy that none of the above is a deal breaker, and that the map will be used.

My own thoughts are:
 * I should increase the font size if it stays as the static map.
 * "Trinity" could be removed; that makes that label a bit smaller.
 * We do have a georeferenced map for Central Christchurch (used here) that we could use instead (or until we have a volunteer who could do the georeferencing for the historical map).

Let me know what you think.  Schwede 66  05:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Excellent start!
 * I would prefer to see the historical map, but if others prefer a modern map I'm okay with that.
 * To reduce the size of the labels, how about changing them to numbers, and having a key in the caption. That would also allow other-language Wikipedias to use the image.- gadfium 06:15, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Updated version has been uploaded. I've figured out where she lived on Madras Street ("between Peterborough and Kilmore Street") and have included that marker. 1) National Memorial 2) Madras St residence 3) Trinity Church 4) Tuam St Hall 5) Addington Cemetery  Schwede 66  07:53, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I've added the key to the caption.- gadfium 08:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Interactive map
Hi all, I've made an interactive map in my user sandbox using OSM Location map if you'd like to take a look. I've included some explanatory comments; feel free to take the code and modify it. Please ping me if you have any questions. — Hugh (talk) 03:24, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As discussed above, the idea was to use a period map for the base. Especially outside of the CBD, the road network was much less dense 125 years ago than what it is today. If the library had been happy with giving me the map in high resolution for free we could have turned that old map into a location map. With the poor resolution image that was available to us it didn't seem worth going to that effort.  Schwede 66  05:20, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Since the interactivity doesn't work unless you choose the full-screen option, I don't find it very useful. The map does look nice, but I still think the period map is more appropriate.- gadfium 05:54, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

DNZB refs
This article references both print and web versions of Tessa Malcom's entry for Sheppard in the 1993 edition of the DNZB. These should be merged. I'd be happy to do this if it's agreed upon. — Hugh (talk) 01:12, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. I don't think this would be controversial.- gadfium 01:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Will have a crack at it this weekend or early next week. — Hugh (talk) 03:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

If you plan to merge Malcolm 2013 into Malcolm 1993, that should be fine, assuming that the 11 statements supported by Malcolm 2013 are indeed supported by Malcolm 1993, and are not supported only by 2013 updates. If you were thinking of merging Malcolm 1993 into Malcolm 2013, that would be a bit problematic. Footnote 'a' is what clarifies the 1847 birth year confusion, which seems to have been started by Malcolm 1993. By the way, I suspect that Tessa Malcolm drafted and submitted the DNZB article in 1992, before she had a chance to read Devaliant 1992. I suspect that had she already read Devaliant, she would have written "on 10 March 1848", rather than "probably on 10 March 1847". Unfortunately, whoever did the 2013 update did not correct the birth year, even though they added Devaliant "1993" [sic] as an additional source. Anyway, the reference for footnote 'a' really needs to be Malcolm 1993, not Malcolm 2013, because it was from the 1993 article onwards that other works started putting out the erroneous 1847 birth year. Nurg (talk) 10:50, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

New photo
Spotted this banner the other day; it's displayed at the Trinity Church in central Christchurch.  Schwede 66  05:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Suffragette?
When this article was promoted to featured article status in 2018 (this is the version that was promoted)], it uses the word 'suffragette' several times to describe Sheppard and other people she worked with - indeed, the first sentence of the lead describes her as "the country's most famous suffragette", and linking to suffragette. All of these uses of the word have been removed since then, most recently by. I see that has reviewed and accepted the change, so I'm not going to revert again - I just want to make sure that the text currently in the article accurately reflects the sources we are using - I'd be surprised if nobody noticed that 'suffragette' wasn't supported by the sources during the FA review, but I guess it could have slipped through. Some of the sources are offline, so I can't review this for myself; also pinging, who did a lot of work on it and nominated it for FA, so presumably has access. Best Girth Summit  (blether)  10:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think I was aware of the distinction between suffragette and suffragist at the time I worked on the article, and was more familiar with "suffragette". The main source, Devaliant's biography of Sheppard, doesn't give either term in the index, and refers to people's activities in support of women's suffrage or the women's franchise campaign rather than giving them a label. It does mention suffragette in the context of overseas campaigns, e.g. "Mackay...was the New Zealand correspondent for the suffragette paper Votes for Women" (page 207). I now understand that suffragists campaigned for women's right to vote via peaceful and constitutional means, while suffragettes came later in those countries where suffragists had not been successful, and took more militant and direct action. Suffragist is the appropriate term in this article.- gadfium 17:56, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The U.S. National Park Service says "suffragette" was coined in Britain by a journalist to mock the suffragists.  Schazjmd   (talk)  18:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * , thanks for checking in. Yes, the 2018 GA version wasn't correct; it should have used the term "suffragist". Sheppard was always peaceful in her actions.  Schwede 66  01:43, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I didn't even realise until reading this discussion that there's a difference between suffragette and suffragist (beyond the former being more gendered towards women). Good to learn something new! Chocmilk03 (talk) 02:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * OK thanks all - good to know this has been fixed now, thanks to and apologies for the inconvenience of my earlier revert.  Girth Summit  (blether)  05:52, 20 April 2022 (UTC)