Talk:Kate Smurthwaite

Goth
In what way is she a "British Goth". What does goth mean in this context? Did she used to be in All About Eve? Why hasn't she dyed her hair black? Why is "BBC" used as a reference when on its own it means nothing? Has the BBC called her a goth? Was this the corporate view of the BBC as expressed by Director General Tony Hall or the view of a BBC journalist in a particular segment or what? Thank you in advance for your response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.196.231.122 (talk) 14:18, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Article for deletion?
A large number of the sources cited in this entry are from the subject's own blogs. She does not appear well-known or influential in the world of comedy or activism, has not any published books, and is the topic of no major profiles in the media that can be found. The content regarding shows is unsourced and appears to be self promotion or publicity, as dates of individuals shows are more suited to eg. a comedian's own website, not Wikipedia. I refer in particular to the standards considered here.87.115.76.204 (talk) 13:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Notable?
I have to wonder if this person is notable? As mentioned above, the article reads as self promotion and it's all very self-referential. 202.161.22.250 (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It was previously nominated for deletion in 2016, and in the ensuing discussion it was unanimously decided that the subject is notable according to Wikipedia guidelines. The number of sources is sufficient evidence of that. Robofish (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Goldsmith's gig section
This article currently has a lengthy section about a planned appearance by Smurthwaite at Goldsmith's college in 2015, which was cancelled amid some controversy. While I can see that this incident became the subject of some dispute, I feel at present the article gives rather too much space to it - it was just one event in her career, and doesn't need to be described in such intricate detail. The basic facts could probably be expressed in one sentence. I feel both the NPOV and BLP policies should incline us to cut this section down to a more proportionate size. Robofish (talk) 22:44, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Arguably, this controversy is, after the "Atheist Bitch Slap" incident, what the subject is most known for when it comes to media coverage. It could be that this isn't a big deal in Smurthwaite's career as a whole, but many media discussed this incident in a wider context of free speech vs. safe spaces as an example where the latter infringed upon the former, especially because this happened so shortly after the Charlie Hebdo shooting. I would be fine with 'expressing the basic facts in one sentence' if that were possible, but it turns out the controversy was more complicated than many commentators on both sides later made it out to be, simplifying the issues beyond reasonableness or fairness by ignoring important facts. Repeatedly, the page has been edited to have just one oversimplified POV, namely that of Rupert Myers in The Telegraph, summarise the sequence of events, which doesn't do them justice. If we're going to discuss this controversy, we should do it properly, as I have sought to do. I would welcome an attempt to cut the subsection down by removing any reiterations or irrelevant elements I may have added, but I seriously doubt it can be brought back to a single sentence. Greetings, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

It pains me to say this but Smurthwaite is not known for either the 'Atheist Bitchslap' video nor the controversy at Goldsmiths University as regrettably she is known for the infamous 'Sticks and Stones' clip where she had a bad reaction to Peter Lloyd after he baited her. The final line of the Goldsmiths piece sums it up where the event was cancelled due to a lack of interest - as backed up bu her inability to fund a regular 'News at Kate' on Youtube. James Farr - Please Remove.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131228030219/http://www.eadt.co.uk/entertainment/festival_of_arts_kicks_off_with_comedy_acts_1_880681?ot=archant.PrintFriendlyPageLayout.ot to http://www.eadt.co.uk/entertainment/festival_of_arts_kicks_off_with_comedy_acts_1_880681?ot=archant.PrintFriendlyPageLayout.ot
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Opening sentence
There has been far too much back-and-forth about whether Smurthwaite should be described as a "comedian" or "comedienne". I went to the source stated and read "Kate Smurthwaite is a stand-up comedian whose strident approach to gender politics will not be to everyone’s taste." Therefore, we should go with what The Independent says. What are everyone else's views? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed, as per sources. 'Comedienne' is now pretty uncommon, and as I understand it, gender neutral language ought to be used where possible. We wouldn't use 'air stewardess' 'manageress' or 'poetess' for the same reason, except perhaps by older generations. It sounds faintly patronising to me now. Mramoeba (talk) 13:19, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ritchie333. Agree with you and Mramoeba. With the benefit of hindsight, I should have raised this on the talkpage myself, but IP editors are rarely this persistent. The Wikipedia article on comedian makes no mention of "comedienne".  It is archaic, and was probably rarely used even long ago, perhaps partly due to it having been a male-dominated profession. Contrast with "actress", see Actor. Edwardx (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't agree. In spite of the gender-neutral spirit of the times, one which we cannot assume will be permanent by any means, one's sex is an important part of one's identity. More fundamentally, however, the Wikipedia policy of "reliable sources", in this case citing the Independent, does not allow for the fact that such sources can be mistaken at times. We wouldn't take typos and misspellings in the press to go unmodified. I most certainly do say "air stewardess" (but not often manageress or poetess), and to dismiss these terms solely because they are ostensibly used by older people is a blatant case of temporal bigotry.


 * Now, that said, I have no wish or expectation for this Wikipedia article to be changed. My comment here is simply for the sake of historical record. People reading this discussion in the future should know that not everyone in our time had the same opinion about everything. Knowing what kind of forces are behind Wikipedia, I know it is a fool's errand to try to set different conventions, no matter how rational they may be.2A02:2454:985E:8900:909B:ED16:BFEA:4309 (talk) 09:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:52, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Kate Smurthwaite at Reclaim The Night 2011.jpg